BMR and TDEE can't be right!

366to266

Height 5ft 3, weight 345, age 54 female. Sedentary except for water aerobics, one hour 1 to 6 times a week.

I've looked at a few different online calculators and they all give my BMR at around 2000 to 2300 (depending on which calculator is used).and my TDEE around 2,600 if totally sedentary and up to 4,000 depending on how many times I do water aerobics per week.

When I was gaining weight through the 1980s and 90s, I had no access to BMR calculators, but I did from time to time attempt to diet and used to count calories and keep food diaries in notebooks. Women's magazines told me to stick to 1200 to 1500 calories (because they never used to take account of a person's weight or activity.) In retrospect, I could not sustain dieting because I was too hungry and often ended up eating up to 2,000.

I never lost any weight when I ate 2000 calories despite my high activity level. I did a very active job (on feet and walking about all day) and played tennis and badminton and cycled to and from work.

If not dieting at all my usual intake was about 2,500 to 3,000. On that I gained weight from 150 lb to 370+ lb.

My problem with my current BMR and TDEE is that, as I gained on 2,500 to 3000 calories a day while doing a high level of activity, how can it be true that eating that the same number of calories will now make me lose? Especially that I am now older and more sedentary?

Currently, I am trying to keep to 1700 calories a day, which is a deficit of about 1000 on my non-workout days and a deficit of about 2000 on my workout days. I am losing about 2lb a week. However, I am mindful of the advice never to eat below my BMR, which is (at minimum) 2,000.

And yet, somehow, I instinctively feel that eating as much as 2,000 calories is "wrong" and when I go over that I beat myself up and feel really guilty and vow to compensate by eating less the next day so that I average 1700 over the week.

But of course when I eat 300 to 500 less in order to compensate, then I am only eating 1300 or 1500, which contravenes even MORE the advice not to eat below BMR.

In a private message, Helloitsdan told me to eat 1600 calories but he did not explain why his advice is different from that of everyone else who says never eat below my BMR of 2000-2300 (depending on which calculator is used).

Could it be that BMR and TDEE calculators are just plain WRONG when it comes to supermorbidly obese folk?


The other question is, regarding the advice not to eat below BMR, does this mean every single day, or over a week?

So I am asking yet again. Can anyone please sort this out? It's a very pressing problem as it impacts on my decisions every single day.

Thanks.

366 to 266 (now more accurately 345 to 266 - yay!)

Unknown

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concordancia

TDEE is your total daily energy expenditure: you are supposed to eat 20% less than that. Try bumping up to 2000 for a couple of weeks and I bet you will still do just fine, but perhaps have more energy.

carly_am

If what you're doing now is working and your happy then I wouldn't worry too much. People say A LOT of stuff and of course everyone's an expert!! But if you're ok doing what you're doing then stick with it. Revisit if you stall/get unhappy?

THEErikaR

I don't know the "answer" to your question bcuz I'm a simple person who believes you don't mess with what works... just sayin'! )
I started out at 347 lbs in Jan. 2012 and it was suggested by MFP that I eat 1900 cals a day. So, because I didn't know what I was doing and had really no experience, except for a short time with Weight Watchers, I went with that. About a month into it I had lost 10 lbs but was very motivated and inspired by how well I was doing, so I decreased my cals to 1500. It was a bit harder but with the right food choices I was able to survive especially with the added exercise cals. By June 2012 I had lost 50lbs! I went off the deep end and started to have too many "cheat" days and then I totally lost my mind set over the holidays...all three of them!! lol
Anyway, I've stuck to the same number ever since and today my diary started out with 1499 cals for the day. I'm now 297lbs and don't plan on changing my cal intake. I do listen to my body now, and I can actually tell when I'm hungry!! That was something I never even thought about, I just ate bcuz it felt good instead of eating when I'm hungry. "Food is fuel, nothing more, nothing less"

I found what worked for me whether it was food choices, cal intake and even some certain exercises that have more of an impact on my body. Give it time, you'll figure it out. Stick with it!!

366to266

If what you're doing now is working and your happy then I wouldn't worry too much. People say A LOT of stuff and of course everyone's an expert!! But if you're ok doing what you're doing then stick with it. Revisit if you stall/get unhappy?

Hmm I can see that you think I am obsessing :-)

But I really want to get this right. If I can lose 3lb a week instead of 2lb, I will go for it! It's really dangerous for me to be this overweight (BMI 60+) and I want to shift the first 100lb as fast as possible. Then, once I am "only" 250lb or so, I don't mind slowing down my weight loss, as I will be able to walk and go to the gym etc.

So I really don't want to be impeding my weight loss by eating 2200 when I could lose more by eating 1600.

Conversely, I don't want to damage my metabolism by going into starvation mode.

I'm frustrated that nobody agrees on anything on here!

Shayztar

It's possible you eat more than you think. Do you accurately measure u every single little thing? Do you add in calories from cooking oils, etc? Those numbers can add up, and when you are thinking you are eating a suggested serving, you could be eating much more than that. Invest in measuring cups, spoons, and a food scale. Track your food accurately as in cooked chicken, vs. raw chicken, pasta, bacon, etc. Cooking changes density and can "add" calories as water evaporates.

When someone is as obese as yourself (345+) you can eat less than your BMR for some time and not be at risk for starvation mode, or whatever term you feel most comfortable with. Maybe 1600 is based on a sedentary lifestyle and that you are very obese if you are 345+. Once you lose enough weight you can go back up to an appropriate calorie amount.

If you don't feel comfortable eating low calories, and you don't feel comfortable eating higher calories, what are you going to do? Maybe these woman's magazines have helped contribute to you feeling bad about the amount of calories you eat. Diets are not an "all of nothing" thing. Do what works for you. If you come to a stall, then seek help again. I'm not even entirely sure what you're unsure about.

vim_n_vigor

Helloitsdan gives very good advice. You could maybe send him a message back asking how he got to that number. Those calculators are an estimate based on the average person. Some people are going to be higher, some lower and some right on. The closer someone gets to their goal weight, the closer they need to monitor their intake and understand what their BMR and TDEE are. In reality though, if you are losing 2 pounds a week, it sounds like you have a pretty decent number for now...

delonda1

Personally this is how I feel:

all of that is estimates any. while i do try to eat no lower than my bmr of 1465 unless you go see a doctor who specializes and can give you the best guesstimate

do what you feel and if you are losing and not hungry at what youre eating... keep doing it.

no one else has your body to tell you its wrong

juleszephyr

If what you're doing now is working and your happy then I wouldn't worry too much. People say A LOT of stuff and of course everyone's an expert!! But if you're ok doing what you're doing then stick with it. Revisit if you stall/get unhappy?

Are you losing doing what you are doing? Do you feel healthy and not over tired? If the answer is yes and yes then stick with it until things change.

All these calculators and pseudo experts do not know you or have seen you so are all a guestimate of your actual burn and activity levels. Everyone is an individual and should listen to their body and work accordingly... As previously said try 2000 for a couple of weeks and keep re-assessing.

Good luck!!

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Lupercalia

I kind of think there is some sort of a different calculation or perhaps different "rules" for an average sized woman who weighs over 250lbs. You could try writing a message to Dan and asking. You could also search for that sort of info and see what you can turn up. I know I've read things of that nature in multiple reliable places, and if I could remember exactly where, I'd tell you. Sorry, I can't recall. But I do know these discussions are out there...

What has your doctor advised you do? Are you healthy apart from your weight? No PCOS, diabetes, etc.?

fresh_start59

I replied to this question that you left in another post last week, but perhaps you did not see it.

You should use the BMR/TDEE spreadsheet on the In Place of a Roadmap group and do your own calculations. Here is a link to heybales post that gives the link to the spreadsheet that you can download: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/717858-spreadsheet-bmr-tdee-and-deficit-calcs-macros-hrm

If you get in there and play with the numbers, you'll see that those of us with a high percentage of body fat do not need as many calories as someone who is lean but with our same sex, height and weight. In other words, those of us who are quite "fluffy" will not get an accurate number if we do not use a calculator that also takes into consideration our body fat percentage.

I am certainly no expert so I can only guess as to why this is true. We always hear that people with lots of muscle burn calories more efficiently. So I can only assume that those of us with lots of fat are not efficient calorie burners. As I said, this is only speculation. Perhaps someone who better understands the In Place of a Roadmap process can explain.

Again, I would encourage you to take your measurements (wrist, forearm, neck, waist, abdomen, hips, thigh, calf) and plug them into the spreadsheet to get an estimated body fat. (The spreadsheet gives you three body fat numbers. One is based on a military calculation, the second is some different formula. The third is the average of the two -- this is the number I plugged into the body fat slot.

prokomds

Lots of conflicting info everywhere as always! I'll complicate things by adding my two cents

Honestly, I think you're probably fine eating 1700-2000 calories. I wouldn't drop below that, but I think up to 2k and you'll still be losing. Of course you want to lose it faster, but you didn't put it on at 2-3 (or more) pounds a week, you can't expect it to come off that fast.

Here's another thing to keep in mind. I was playing around with the BMR calculator, and generally speaking, it looks like the BMR goes down around 50 calories for every 10 pounds you lose. As you get smaller, it's more important to eat above your BMR, but at the same time, your BMR will be decreasing. So if you keep eating the same (that 1700-2000 range), your BMR will eventually be about the same as what you're eating, and after that will drop down below what you're eating.

I think it's important to understand you can't eat below your BMR forever. But doing it early in your weight loss journey, when you have a lot of ground to cover, probably isn't the end of the world.

And just an aside, if you have a not-great day and go over some, I would just let it slide or use it an excuse to fit in extra exercise. Don't starve yourself, it just makes you more likely to binge again later. Good luck!

366to266

It's possible you eat more than you think. Do you accurately measure u every single little thing? Do you add in calories from cooking oils, etc? Those numbers can add up, and when you are thinking you are eating a suggested serving, you could be eating much more than that. Invest in measuring cups, spoons, and a food scale. Track your food accurately as in cooked chicken, vs. raw chicken, pasta, bacon, etc. Cooking changes density and can "add" calories as water evaporates.

Yes. I am obsessive about measuring. Brand new electronic scales and measuring spoons etc.

When someone is as obese as yourself (345+) you can eat less than your BMR for some time and not be at risk for starvation mode

OK that is good to know.

If you don't feel comfortable eating low calories, and you don't feel comfortable eating higher calories, what are you going to do?

I'm not even entirely sure what you're unsure about.

That is it - that is what I am unsure about - the sentence above!

sofielein

I think the answer is quite simple:: medically speaking there is an exception to everything.

There is 1 in 10 000 people who survive the most aggressive brain tumor while the other 9999 die. It does happen. Doctor's can't explain it but they very well know it can happen occasionally.

So do not worry that much if you do not fit the rules. There could be something about your metabolism that a 3-field generic calculator won't see. If you really really want to find out you can address this with your doctor but as long as you are okay with eating 1700, losing, and feeling fine, and your doc approves of this (I'm sure he will) why bother?

366to266

What has your doctor advised you do? Are you healthy apart from your weight? No PCOS, diabetes, etc.?

Docs just say "lose weight". One gave me a diet booklet (I have it right here on my desk) telling me to eat a lot of pasta, bread, sugar, rice and potatoes, but I don't eat any refined sugars or starches. The head of our surgery is himself 280lbs and neither he nor his 4 partners have been able to help him. Last time I saw him he asked ME for diet advice!

Yes I am very healthy apart from my weight. I do suffer from too much insulin in my system though. I used to be a reactive hypoglycaemic till I gave up sugar.

Helloitsdan

If you have questions as to why, simply ask.

The number given offers plenty of room to get base macronutrients to fuel your day.
You are morbidly obese.
Your fat stores will fill any basal needs beyond the 1600.
When you plateau for more than a month, evaluate your numbers again and take a diet break.

1600 is ample amount of food.
Hit 30% protein and 30% essential fats and you should do just fine.
Resistance training will catapult your results and help with maintain in or even building lean mass.
Research ATP in obese for more info on how you can build muscle while in a deficit.

And please feel free to PM if you have any more questions about my methods.

ChitownFoodie

Spend the money, and get a DEXA scan to find out what your real RMR is. If you've got the knowledge of that number than you can work from there. Online calculators can only tell you what the average is for people.

SStrauss79

If what you're doing now is working and your happy then I wouldn't worry too much. People say A LOT of stuff and of course everyone's an expert!! But if you're ok doing what you're doing then stick with it. Revisit if you stall/get unhappy?

Hmm I can see that you think I am obsessing :-)

But I really want to get this right. If I can lose 3lb a week instead of 2lb, I will go for it! It's really dangerous for me to be this overweight (BMI 60+) and I want to shift the first 100lb as fast as possible. Then, once I am "only" 250lb or so, I don't mind slowing down my weight loss, as I will be able to walk and go to the gym etc.

So I really don't want to be impeding my weight loss by eating 2200 when I could lose more by eating 1600.

Conversely, I don't want to damage my metabolism by going into starvation mode.

I'm frustrated that nobody agrees on anything on here!

losing slowly will really benefit you in the long run...will also help with the elasticity in the skin. Losing too fast and you could have a lot of very loose skin. I've lost 47lbs since October, yes I would like it to come off quicker, but it took me 13 years to get up to 332lbs.

SStrauss79

Also, try a low glycemic diet. I'm guessing that will help with your insulin issues.

Mokey41

When you are grossly overweight the calculators no longer work. They're geared towards people in the "normal" range and at 60+BMI you fall well out of that so your BMR calculation is probably on the high side because fat doesn't need to be fed and it doesn't consume the calories that muscle does. You have a lot of weight to lose before you need to worry too much about undereating issues.

WendyTerry420

If you are eating 1700 a day and losing two pounds a week, then your TDEE is right around 2700. But it sounds like you are having success. If you feel good about it and losing two pounds a week, then keep doing what you're doing.

WBB55

If you don't feel comfortable eating low calories, and you don't feel comfortable eating higher calories, what are you going to do?

That is it - that is what I am unsure about - the sentence above!

You're here for the long haul. The most important thing, I think, is that you are happy and not stressed out about what you're eating and can sustain a healthy lifestyle for the long term. There's SO many factors to take into account on what is the EXACT right amount for you to eat. Everything is just an estimate. Since you are obese right now, you have some wiggle room in what that EXACT right amount is. If you feel satisfied and happy at 1700 calories, and don't feel like you're depriving yourself, and you're fitting in lots of protein and good fats and complex carbs and fiber and fruits and vegies and dairy at 1700 calories, then stop worrying, enjoy your food, and see what happens over a 2-3 month period. If you find yourself binging at night or feeling depressed, or don't have the energy to work out, THEN maybe you need to eat a bit more every day. For now, follow Dan's advice. 1700 is close enough to his advice, in my opinion, if that's what you're comfortable at right now.

366to266

Thanks everyone.

I think I understand a bit more now.

The BMR advice does not really apply to the super morbidly obese. We don't starve because we have fat stored. But we also need to keep the carbs low to force the body to delve into the "reserve tank" - our stored fat.

I am definitely satisfied most of the time with 1500 to 1700 calories so long as my ratios are over 50% fat and under 20% carbs. Some days I do get very hungry - usually the day AFTER my workout. So I guess it's OK for me to go up to 2000 once or twice a week if I have to.

I've been doing Atkins but I am now going to introduce more fruit and veg, which will keep the calories lower.

So a typical day's menu will now be:

Breakfast: banana, cantaloupe, one or two hard boiled eggs.

Lunch: a pint of home-made low GI veg soup, 100g meat

Dinner: huge mixed salad (all low GI) with 150g meat/fish/prawns with olive oil dressing or mayo if within calorie allowance

Snack suggestions: banana, strawberries, one or two boiled eggs, mug of soup (as above)

Drinks: herb tea (with coconut oil if I need to increase the calories); tea with skimmed milk

Total about 1700 calories.

I'll see how that goes and try not to stress/obsess.

Thanks again folks.

hazelovesfood

just a question, but why are you not logging your food, how can you know how many calories your eating.?

366to266

just a question, but why are you not logging your food, how can you know how many calories your eating.?

I log my food religiously, every day without fail. You can see it if you are a member of fatsecret, where it is public.

jst1986

As someone who started out at 375lb this topic has been really helpful. Thanks all.

ccrams2

bump

dmlahey

2 things. I think your calorie intake is too high. You can probably bring that safely down atleast another 500 as long as you are eating the right things and following your nutrient intakes, including a vitamin. For females the need of caloric intake is even lower than for men. The BMR tells you what you burn in a day and if you don't eat a lower calorie count than that you will just be maintaining weight less your exercise which sounds like that is very high. Stay away from everything processed, or fake, and have a higher vegetable in take. Carbs at the beginning of the day and more protein later in the day. Smaller meals preferably 6 times will boost your metabolism.

Seconds it sounds like you want to make some serious changes. I just watched the documentary fat, sick, and nearly dead. I will start my juicing fast soon. For me I'm only doing it for 7-10 but you may want to be more lengthy.
Definitely recommend watching that.

Feel free to message me or add me if you need any help. I work in the fitness equipment industry and have many resources to find out what is missing. My job is pretty much to find the missing piece or pieces to your fitness puzzle.

tomg33

No offense but at that weight, the time for trying to work it out yourself is over. I would seek medical advice immediately. I don't mean to be harsh and I'm not trying to scare you, just giving my honest opinion. Good luck!