Controversial Topic - Opinions & Debate please!
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Fat and Age are the last taboos.0
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As a business owner, I try to take in someone's qualifications, skill set, relevant experience etc...but when you are looking at an "Obese" person VS a "non-obese" person you also have to take into account some of the additional costs that can occur to your business. Example - if you are Obese you are probaly not going to be that "heathy" so you may need more sick days, which is a cost to the business. Then of course there is the whole issue of providing health insurance and that may be an additional driver of cost...so you have to weigh (no pun intended) all factors and make the best decsision for your business. As someone else pointed out there may be motivation and self esteem issues involved that could also effect job performance....0
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I read a study one time done on school aged children. It found that even young children thought if a person was attractive it meant they were smarter. This is just human nature. As we grow and mature we should all know not to judge a book by its cover. But when you don't know a person, as an interviewer does not, then they frequently go by what they see. Thus referring to the basic instincts we were born with. Its not fair but it does exist.
My husband was hired when he was heavy. He was an outgoing capable man in spite of the size he used to be. I always wondered if he was hired because of his size, as the man who hired him was of size too. Unusual? Yes. Lucky? Maybe.
This makes me think of other prejudices we see in society. The movie Tootsie in which Dustin Hoffman played a woman. He said after the movie, that is was such a shame that men disregard many women from the playing deck based on looks alone. He was ashamed of himself as he realized he had done the same thing in his own real life and realized he had missed out on relationships with some pretty terrific women because of it. Playing the roll of an unattractive woman gave him this revelation. Good lesson. But this lesson comes from experiences most people never have.0 -
Employers should have the right to hire whoever they want based on whatever criteria they want. Individuals should be able agree to enter into a trade of goods and services for compensation or not.0
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http://ebn.benefitnews.com/news/morbid-obesity-protected-ADA-2726731-1.html
Morbid obesity has precedent for protection, and 308 lbs (22 stone, the woman in question) falls squarely into the morbidly obese category at almost any height.
600 lbs. is one thing (even if I don't agree with it). I think her case would get laughed out of court, to be perfectly honest. To me, anything anyone has done to themselves willfully should disqualify them for this kind of protection.
As far as employment goes, if someone is capable of doing the job well, we should act as humanitarians and not ration our approval to parrot discriminatory public opinions.
That said, morbidly obese is morbidly obese.
Yes, IF. As many have pointed out here, her qualifications suck as well. It's basically a hype piece allowing someone to blame a potentially unrelated issue for her problem.0 -
5 years of no job, she thinks it is her weight and still has not done anything about it? yeah, super far fetched to think she's lazy.0
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I love how the majority of you are here either to lose weight because you yourself are overweight or you have lost a lot of weight and yet still feel the need to bash other overweight people. Time to do a little self reflecting I think...
Yeah, I did reflect...on that time I decided to stop sucking at life. Perhaps if this lady had made that same decision some time ago, she wouldn't be facing this problem right now.
Well do a little more reflecting and try to figure out why this topic pisses you off so much. She personally hasn't hit "rock bottom" and has decided to make the change and lose weight. Maybe she enjoys being overweight. You're no better than she is just because you decided to lose weight and she didn't. You may be healthier but that's about it. Your weight doesn't define who you are as a person.
Sorry but you find me one person who truly 100% deep down enjoys being overweight. We are not genetically meant to enjoy being overweight, this is why our body responds badly to it. Nobody with a sane mind will enjoy the prospect of early death etc etc.0 -
I think people are uncomfortable around fat people. It's ridiculous.
Also, to weave in the concept of poor people not eating well because they are wasting money on vats of pure lard is ridiculous. That has nothing to do with the issue and it's odd that you would tie it in.
Yes, agree, the part about wasting money and not being able to be fat on benefits... kinda struck a nerve not sure why, perhaps because it is a gross generalization?0 -
Employers should have the right to hire whoever they want based on whatever criteria they want. Individuals should be able agree to enter into a trade of goods and services for compensation or not.
We'll have none of that blasphemous Libertarian talk around here good sir! :drinker:0 -
It may not be 'right' to judge people by their appearance but it's human nature, we all do it, and we all know others do it. Besides, in a short interaction with a stranger, such as a job interview, you only have so much information to go on. First impressions matter. I was unemployed for a year and at my heaviest at the time, and wondered if I didn't get a couple of jobs that seemed so perfect because I didn't measure up with my appearance. The thought hurts, but you know, that's just the way it is. My conclusion about what to do about it was to try to improve myself.
It's not really that different than being thin and lovely and having a great resume but showing up for your interview in torn sweatpants, smelly sneakers, and a tube top. Your clothes say a lot about you. There are appropriate clothes to wear for different occasions. This person probably wouldn't get hired on the basis of her clothes alone. Is that judgmental? Yeah, maybe. But that's just the way it is.0 -
If you've only gone to 12 interviews in 5 years, you're not trying very hard to find a job and probably are lazy and unambitious.
i've gone to 7 interviews in the last year and a half.. and managed to get one seasonal job and a 2 jobs that just didn't work out.
personally, if i was the person paying the healthcare for my employees, i'd hire healthy people first. i'd probably even be weary of someone who smelled of cigarette smoke! it all comes down to business.
i'd also hire the most personable and friendly person and who i felt would fit best with the people in my work area.0 -
In the US that is illegal. Unless there are physical demands that the overweight person is not able to perform (i.e. bus drivers need to be able to move freely in the isles to evacuate the bus in an emergency, if someone can't fit in the isle because of their weight they can't form the essential functions of the job) it is against the law to not hire someone because of their weight (just like it is for race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc.).
Using an office/IT type job as an example, if two people have the exact same qualifications and you don't hire one just because they are overweight, that is discrimination. Obviously most hiring managers won’t say that is the reason, but if they did or even hinted that a person was not hired because of their weight that person could file an Equal Opportunity complaint.
As for how does she have enough money to stay fat? I know it is often disputed that junk food costs less than healthy food, but if someone has $5 they are more likely to go get a value meal at McDonalds than go to the grocery store and get a loaf of wheat bread, a carton of eggs and a package of frozen spinach.
I am an HR professional, and this is not true. Obesity is not a protected class. This is why we are starting to see employers factor weight into the cost of benefits. I'm not saying it will never happen, but for right now this is not legally considered discrimination.0 -
I love how the majority of you are here either to lose weight because you yourself are overweight or you have lost a lot of weight and yet still feel the need to bash other overweight people. Time to do a little self reflecting I think...
Yeah, I did reflect...on that time I decided to stop sucking at life. Perhaps if this lady had made that same decision some time ago, she wouldn't be facing this problem right now.
Well do a little more reflecting and try to figure out why this topic pisses you off so much. She personally hasn't hit "rock bottom" and has decided to make the change and lose weight. Maybe she enjoys being overweight. You're no better than she is just because you decided to lose weight and she didn't. You may be healthier but that's about it. Your weight doesn't define who you are as a person.
Sorry but you find me one person who truly 100% deep down enjoys being overweight. We are not genetically meant to enjoy being overweight, this is why our body responds badly to it. Nobody with a sane mind will enjoy the prospect of early death etc etc.
There is nobody who enjoys it 100% but there isn't anybody in this world who is 100% satisfied with their own bodies. From family experience, my aunt is overweight and chooses not to lose weight. She's extremely successful and runs an international pharmaceutical company that creates medications to help treat cancer. She's happy with herself and her life. Her weight doesn't define who she is as a person.0 -
people will always judge based on appearance. much in the same way I'd be judged if I showed up for a job interview with jeans on, or had my tattoos showing. I don't like it, but I always dress up and cover any tattoos before going into an interview.
I can understand how a fat person could be viewed as lazy, unmotivated, etc. Being significantly overweight is going to throw up a few flags. Your health could be a problem at work, you may not be able to lift things, etc.0 -
This form has gone completely off topic. Take care.0
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Personally, I'd take the one with the best attitude and try not to let my first impression of someone physically influence my decision, though I'm sure it would even unconsciously.
One thing that strikes me and I'm seeing a lot of is "how can people that live on so little money remain so large?" when the answer seems obvious to me. Often, people with low and very low to no income live on very, very crappy food. In the US it is quite common to find heavy and overweight homeless people because they obviously have no kitchen to hold fresh produce or prepare meals, so they live on fast food and handouts from stores which is usually crappy, refined, processed junk that is just barely expired, or leftover. I've lost some weight by really taking care to eat a lot more fruits and veg but I know if I went back to my old diet of fast food 5-7 meals a week I would gain it all back in a heartbeat. Obviously there are people that will never gain weight no matter what they eat, and people on the other side of the spectrum who have to work super hard to lose just a pound or 2, but overall people living on food stamps, handouts and government benefits are overweight because their diet is crap and even if they have a home, they might not have more than a bed and a microwave, maybe a tiny fridge, so their food has to be prepared or frozen.
This also ties into the price of veg, which is quite ridiculous for the amount of calories you get compared to say, a hot pocket or some kind of frozen or fast food meal. Part of the problem in the US is food and farming subsidies, but I'm not going to get into that debate. I'll just say that if someone is looking for work and overweight I would have the foresight to know that they might be trying to be healthy but are simply in a terrible circumstance and maybe someone with the exact same qualifications but is thin simply "won the genetic lottery" and shouldn't be considered harder working or having a better attitude.
I'd prefer to see a study based on beauty versus ugliness, and see how that influences people's attitudes when hiring versus actual performance of said applicants. I feel like people get blindsided by attractiveness and it changes their opinion of someone when they meet, versus just looking at them on paper.0 -
There is nobody who enjoys it 100% but there isn't anybody in this world who is 100% satisfied with their own bodies. From family experience, my aunt is overweight and chooses not to lose weight. She's extremely successful and runs an international pharmaceutical company that creates medications to help treat cancer. She's happy with herself and her life. Her weight doesn't define who she is as a person.
Then let me be the first to say that I believe your aunt more than likely earned her success in spite of her weight...not because of it. The kind of person this article is about however is a whole different kind of monster. It's a 'feel bad for the fatty' PR piece. Nothing more.0 -
Fat or thin it should be about what you can do. If you are qualified for the job.0
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Personally, I'd take the one with the best attitude and try not to let my first impression of someone physically influence my decision, though I'm sure it would even unconsciously.
One thing that strikes me and I'm seeing a lot of is "how can people that live on so little money remain so large?" when the answer seems obvious to me. Often, people with low and very low to no income live on very, very crappy food. In the US it is quite common to find heavy and overweight homeless people because they obviously have no kitchen to hold fresh produce or prepare meals, so they live on fast food and handouts from stores which is usually crappy, refined, processed junk that is just barely expired, or leftover.
Just stop there...seriously. This argument is tired and worn out, and beyond stretching the facts a little. It's HOW MUCH they are eating, not what they are eating. This forum is loaded with people with sub 15% bodyfat who eat crappy food on a nearly constant basis. If anything, the 'poverty stricken fat people' are given too damned much money.0 -
The larger lady whos name was Jay said she had gone for 12 interviews in 5 years and had no sucess as well as only having GCSE qualifications which are the bare minimum in qualification standards for someone to have in the UK. She is currently claiming benefits and not working.
Do you think that it is right for the employer to judge her in this way and not give her a job? Do you think it is not about her weight at all but her lack of qualifiications?
Whether it be about her weight, or about her qualifications...she's had FIVE YEARS to address (correct) either/both of those issues and she hasn't. And 12 interviews in 5 years really isn't very many at all. This doesn't sound like someone who really truly wants a job.0 -
I do get to have an opinion about it. You can't stop me, or anyone else, from having or expressing an opinion.People who have never been seriously overweight and poor really don't get to have an opinion on this because they have no experience in that situation and don't know what they're talking about- which I know will make you all whine and cry like petulant children, because MFP forums people can't stand to be told they're not allowed an opinion. Get over it.0 -
Go to the store with $100 for food, for the MONTH. Come back here and tell me what things you were able to afford that would stretch for the entire month. Then think about how a large person can afford to stay large.
It's because the cheapest things to purchase are pastas, sodas, snacks. Buying meat is a luxury for many of us who are poor. I have learned that I can buy one large family size of a meat, such as boneless/skinless chicken and make about 8-10 meals around it. The next month, I buy one family sized ground beef and do the same, and so on each month with whatever meats are the cheapest in town that week. Lately, it has been pork and chicken. Sometimes it's steak and ground beef. Buy them, wrap individually, freeze. Plan a menu as much as possible. Learn what can be substituted for bread, such as I now use tortillas and flat bread. Both have less calories, more flavor and lend themselves to a number of different types of meals.
Pasta and rice are the two mainstays of a poor person's diet because it is cheap, it stores well and can be used as a side or a main meal.
I made a point of going off all pasta for two months and using brown rice. I am slowly adding in pasta again, but trying to find healthier pasta (whole grain) I made a point of going off all soda and sweets and am slowly adding them back in, using moderation and accountability. (I put it in my diary BEFORE I eat it to make sure that it fits in to my calorie allowance and macros.)
Now, five years later with no job and still the same weight, that is something else entirely.
I was discriminated against by a retail store. I was about 175 pounds at the time. They wanted tall, thin, beautiful women. I didn't fit the bill at all. I crossed them off my ever to buy from list and have never done so and never will, regardless of how thin I may become. It was discrimination, pure and simple, all because of weight...and my weight wasn't that bad for being 5' 6" and 30.
It is a learning experience to be poor and trying to eat healthier. Fruit and veggies are costly. I've researched and learned that frozen is near as good, as it is flash frozen. By using frozen fruit and veggies, I can make things stretch a bit more. This month, I bought fresh spinach to try to use in smoothies. I've discovered I really cannot taste it and just used it in my breakfast burritos to add a veggie to my day.
Until someone is ready to do the research and then make the changes, pasta, soda and sweets will be the cheapest things to buy and eat. It takes effort to go for the smoothies, fruits, vegetables, 100% juices, etc.
I know I need to add more exercise to my days, I struggle due to being in a wheelchair 98% of the time. I need to make more time and effort to include movement on a regular basis.
In closing, at the end of most months, I end up having only enough food for 1 meal a day. Yeah, really. I do what I can to make the food last as long as possible, but it doesn't always happen. I am fortunate this month, because a friend who was moving to Canada brought me all her food that wasn't going with her, so I have a pantry closet that is usually empty except for Toilet paper, brimming with many things. Things like cereal, soda, crackers. These are things I will be eating over the rest of my life, so I am learning how to moderate with them now. She bought me a bunch of canned fruits in syrup. I am draining them as I need them and rinsing with water to remove as much added sugar as possible then using them in smoothies to help stretch the frozen and fresh fruits, juices, etc. It can be done. It takes time, energy and ingenuity to figure out how to give something that has little value health wise into something that can be used to eat healthy.
Those who say they are tired of the "poor fat person" argument...I say, go out and live on just $100 a month for food, the amount that most states give to a poor person with no job, on SSI (Which is $710/month). I have to make that $710 pay my rent, heat, electricity, water, sewage, garbage, phone/internet and cell phone. It also has to cover my food, as I am unable to get food stamps at this time due to a huge mistake on their part they are unwilling to correct. I qualify, they know I do, but they will not correct the mistake THEY have made and continue to make each time I apply for food stamps.
You have just $810 to live off for the entire month. No cheating. Pay all your bills first, then use what is left for food. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you would be able to get the $96 in food stamps. See how far it gets you. It is not HOW MUCH you eat, sometimes. Sometimes, it really is WHAT you eat. I can eat one meal a day of pasta, soda and sweets, and have less than 1200 calories and gain weight where as I am now eating on average, two meals a day with meat in at least one, using rice and fruits/veggies to supplement and losing weight. So your tired, the fat person eats to much, argument carries no weight with me. (Pun not intended)
The internet and cell phone are what many would call wants, but because I am married to a man who is in another country, until I can immigrate, am a domestic abuse survivor who lives in the same town as one of her abusers, the internet, home phone and cell are necessities. I was able to work out a good deal with the phone/internet (I pay $100/month for both which includes being able to call anywhere in N. America, including Mexico and Canada.) I got a great deal with my wireless company that allows me unlimited night and weekends and the same N. America calling I get on my home phone for just $60/month) I use few lights, keep the heat as low as I can stand (Air in the summer is kept off as long as possible here in the very hot, humid south.) and wear sweaters and layers in the winter and shorts/tanks in the summer. I keep curtains closed in the summer day and open in the winter day to let in natural light and a little bit of heat (or to keep that same heat/sun out.) I go out to eat at the cheapest place once a month and normally get a grilled chicken wrap. This month was different, someone else paid, and we went where she would enjoy, and I did and I did eat more than usual, but also made sure I logged every bite on MFP. Because I struggle most days to make my calorie goal, I knew it would even out in the end and didn't stress over it.0 -
An obese person could be obese for many reasons and regardless of size, shape, age, ethnicity etc I believe that the most qualified and suitable person for the job is the one who should get the job.
As for the comment about diet, it is a sad fact that the price of healthier and unprocessed food keeps rising. It is now cheaper to buy an apple pie than a bag of apples! These days the poorest families do not have the option of putting good food on the table and have to concern themselves with just getting something on the table to tide everyone over before worrying where the next meal is coming from0 -
Employers should have the right to hire whoever they want based on whatever criteria they want. Individuals should be able agree to enter into a trade of goods and services for compensation or not.
/Thread.
America.0 -
If you've only gone to 12 interviews in 5 years, you're not trying very hard to find a job and probably are lazy and unambitious.
That was my take on it, hard to say she's taking the world by storm. Averaging an interview every five months is not too impressive.0 -
Meh, i would probably think the same.
Then again... I always equate fitness and weight to self respect. If you don't respect yourself, how will you respect me or my company?
^ terrible person0 -
Weight discrimination is rampant.
I clearly respect other people's opinions and acknowledge that overweight people likely bring future medical issues to the table, however there is nothing that guarantees the thinner person will not have medical issues. If you were to substitute "man" and "woman" for every instance of "thin" and "obese" in your query, you would logically jump to the defense and say such discrimination is unwarranted and disgusting.
Factoring in someones size as a qualification for a job is, in general, discriminating and I say in general because there are many examples that could be made to argue an overweight prospect as an impossible prospect.
"Poor people" are not fat because they are lazy and poor, more likely they are undereducated and don't 'get' that they can make their dollar stretch further if they shopped wiser and had resources to do so. (It took me meeting with a dietitian who educated me on the cans and can'ts of shopping/weight loss.)
Also - I have seen a large share of "well off" overweight people, officially I would be one of them!0 -
Employers should have the right to hire whoever they want based on whatever criteria they want. Individuals should be able agree to enter into a trade of goods and services for compensation or not.
We'll have none of that blasphemous Libertarian talk around here good sir! :drinker:
i agree. burn all the libertarians and their voluntarism. we want forced relationships between people.0 -
I'm glad this has never happened to me. I always get hired and get promotions because I'm always one of the best. Weight means nothing when it comes to someone's work ethic and how smart they are. Judgemental people are a-holes, end of story.0
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Weight discrimination is rampant.
I clearly respect other people's opinions and acknowledge that overweight people likely bring future medical issues to the table, however there is nothing that guarantees the thinner person will not have medical issues. If you were to substitute "man" and "woman" for every instance of "thin" and "obese" in your query, you would logically jump to the defense and say such discrimination is unwarranted and disgusting.
Factoring in someones size as a qualification for a job is, in general, discriminating and I say in general because there are many examples that could be made to argue an overweight prospect as an impossible prospect.
"Poor people" are not fat because they are lazy and poor, more likely they are undereducated and don't 'get' that they can make their dollar stretch further if they shopped wiser and had resources to do so. (It took me meeting with a dietitian who educated me on the cans and can'ts of shopping/weight loss.)
Also - I have seen a large share of "well off" overweight people, officially I would be one of them!
Sooo...they're not lazy, they're stupid. Basically you agree with half of what I said earlier then. Excellent. :drinker:0
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