To Flexible? What to do for squats/presses?

cuterbee

For anyone who is extremely flexible: it's probably worth your while to bring it up with your MD/DO at your next office visit.

One of my friends was recently diagnosed with a fairly mild case Ehler-Danlos at age 55 (an inherited condition with hypermobility). On the off-chance that you have this, it's worth exploring now; my friend has irreparable damage to her joints, at least some of which would have been avoidable had she known at an earlier age.

CoderGal

I'm more interested in this, I'm not saying joint instability/misalignment is good for squats (on the contrary it's pretty bad). But being too flexible for squats is foreign subject to me. Care to explain that aspect? You can message me your response if you believe this would sidetrack the conversation too much.

Edit-Typo

Ever bend down to far and pop something out of place? Personally I have more problems with walking normally and my hip popping and having a sharp pain and in the same movement I usually twist out my leg and pop it back into place.

CoderGal

The problem with being super flexible is that it is easy to go beyond a normal range of motion which is not necessarily a good thing when lifting weight as it can put extra stress on the joints.

With weighted squats you want to be careful of your back and knees. Going beyond 90 could cause injury if your core isn't strong.

With the overhead press, are you standing or seated? are your shoulders/arms actually going back behind you or your back is arching? That's what he could have meant by stating you are really flexible while preforming that exercise.

As a safety precaution and to recognize proper form, you may want to consider standing against a wall in a slight squat while doing an over head press with dumb bells.

You will have to be more aware of your form than the average person when lifting so that you do not hyperextend and cause injury. Think about engaging your core and what muscles you are working to focus.

Just a thought!

Yes, I can definitely feel the stress on the joints. My first thought was I really really don't think this is how lifting is suppose to feel. It doesn't bother me with low weight, but once weight is added, boy is there a difference. I've been told my core is strong so I'm not to concerned over this. I can do planks for forever and the only thing that keeps me from doing pushups is my weak arms. It was a standing OHP. My back is definitely not arched and I'm not sure what you mean by shoulders going behind me? I don't think arching ones back makes them flexible? Isn't that a terrible thing to do when your doing something like that?

CoderGal

cba to read all the replies but i think it will depend how weak your joints are, hypermobility is fine if your joints are strong, if theyre not you might find going high in weight you'll get a knee pop out etc (done it before, hurts like a *****!) best bet imo is to start off with a modest weight, build up your joint muscles then progress in weights slowly

Thank you! This is exactly how my knees feel when I go as low as I can...there's a pressure on them and they feel wobbly today. My joints are definitely not strong. I've been a dancer for many years but I'm lifting for the first time ever in life. I lost a bunch of my weight sedentary which was a terrible terrible idea because I lost what little muscle I had. I made a post wondering how weak I was compared to everyone a little while ago because I felt incredibly weak compared to what other 'starters' could do. To the people losing weight DON'T WAIT UNTIL YOUR DONE TO START LIFTING.

I'm starting with stronglifts 5x5 completely for the reason that the progress is little bits at a time. It looks like I may just end up using a lighter weight just so I can squat a bit lower then 90 (I'm weak) plus I really would like to build strength in my overly stretchy parts, it just seems like a good idea

CoderGal

For anyone who is extremely flexible: it's probably worth your while to bring it up with your MD/DO at your next office visit.

One of my friends was recently diagnosed with a fairly mild case Ehler-Danlos at age 55 (an inherited condition with hypermobility). On the off-chance that you have this, it's worth exploring now; my friend has irreparable damage to her joints, at least some of which would have been avoidable had she known at an earlier age.

Thank you, someone already PMed me about this. Looked it up and I have the majority of the symptoms...which probably isn't a good sign since it's not one of those 'most people have those problems' symptoms but "Weird what is wrong with you" CoderGirl problems lol. Well def bring this up at the next doctors visit which will probably be next month.

DopeItUp

I think I naturally have a narrower stance compared to some of the wider stances. My knees feel less wonky there. And my feet are also parallel as well, I remember wondering if that was ok (seen several make sure your feet are pointed out responses in other threads). Is there a case that parallel is bad?

With squats, you want to have your feet pointing in-line with your femurs. So when you're squatting down, your thighs and knees will point directly over and in-line with your toes. Make sense? The angle of your feet therefore depends on how wide your stance is. If your feet are close together, your feet will point almost straight ahead (slightly angled, like 10-20 degrees). If you take a super wide stance (think Sumo-style) with your legs way out to the sides, your feet are going to therefore point way out as well, like 45 degrees.

I too started with a fairly narrow stance, I think this is natural when you're just a beginner. I've slowly widened this stance over time because it seems to activate more muscles and helps me balance better (I have severe balance problems). With more muscles being hit you can do more weight as well. You'll notice that every competitive power lifter will have almost an extreme stance with their legs way far apart. It takes some getting used to, most people have tight hip flexors/abductors/adductors/whatever so you gotta work on stretching them to be able to do the movement correctly. Right now I will set my heels at shoulder width and then turn my toes out to match my thighs (probably 30-35 degrees). It's pretty typical to do this for most people.

CoderGal

I think I naturally have a narrower stance compared to some of the wider stances. My knees feel less wonky there. And my feet are also parallel as well, I remember wondering if that was ok (seen several make sure your feet are pointed out responses in other threads). Is there a case that parallel is bad?

With squats, you want to have your feet pointing in-line with your femurs. So when you're squatting down, your thighs and knees will point directly over and in-line with your toes. Make sense? The angle of your feet therefore depends on how wide your stance is. If your feet are close together, your feet will point almost straight ahead (slightly angled, like 10-20 degrees). If you take a super wide stance (think Sumo-style) with your legs way out to the sides, your feet are going to therefore point way out as well, like 45 degrees.

I too started with a fairly narrow stance, I think this is natural when you're just a beginner. I've slowly widened this stance over time because it seems to activate more muscles and helps me balance better (I have severe balance problems). With more muscles being hit you can do more weight as well. You'll notice that every competitive power lifter will have almost an extreme stance with their legs way far apart. It takes some getting used to, most people have tight hip flexors/abductors/adductors/whatever so you gotta work on stretching them to be able to do the movement correctly. Right now I will set my heels at shoulder width and then turn my toes out to match my thighs (probably 30-35 degrees). It's pretty typical to do this for most people.

That makes all kinds of sense. And was exactly what I was doing (I've tried a couple wide squats before). Thanks again.

Nataliaho

I am hypermobile as well, it does come with its unique challenges, but they can be dealt with. You really have to concentrate on keeping tight the whole way down. I also adopt a slightly narrower stance than normal. So while I do maintain knees over feet, my feet are only slightly pointed out. This gives me more resistance through my hamstrings and glutes so I don't dive-bomb. If I take too wide stance/angle I am more prone to just bottom out. If your shoulders are flexible too (like mine), you could also try a low and narrow rack, this helps me stay upright rather than leaning forward.

Because I am so flexible, parallel for me feels like I am hardly squatting. So somthing else that's helped is have my spotter or buddy call it for me at just below parallel.

All that aside, its really about concentration. Keep saying to yourself, "tight, tight, tight, tight.... then chest up, chest up, chest up".

Hope this helps, it's really hard to explain online, but I've worked with my strength coaches on my form so much for exactly this issue

On the OHP, he could have also been talking about hyperextending your legs backwards?? Mine do that unless I pay attention. Or you might be over extending your back..

ETA - just to add, I've never had injuries because of my mobility, nor do I think it stops you lifting heavy (my squat is just under 100kg)...

I think I naturally have a narrower stance compared to some of the wider stances. My knees feel less wonky there. And my feet are also parallel as well, I remember wondering if that was ok (seen several make sure your feet are pointed out responses in other threads). Is there a case that parallel is bad?

dive-bomb, could you please explain? You mean collapse?

I have no spotter friends, I've been trying to drag the few new gym friends with me but we've all been busy lately and have different schedules.

" Keep saying to yourself, "tight, tight, tight, tight.... then chest up, chest up, chest up"" That is really good advice. I've been doing that and definitely find that this helps if it is not yet a continuous natural movement for someone.

And nope on the knees and back comment. I didn't have my back arched and my knees don't bend that way thankfully.

And thank you for that last comment! That is encouraging!

By dive-bomb I basically mean losing tension at the bottom of the squat, plunging too fast and not being able to get back up again. If you're like me you can probably sit almost *kitten* on ankles at the bottom of a squat (unweighted). The problem is that with alot of weight on your back you just won't get back up again unless you maintain that tension. That goes for everyone, but its amplified when your loss of tension = really really loose, like us.

As for squat stance, its good to begin with the standard template, however most serious lifters will end up with a stance/grip/rack position that suits their particular body. I lift with really short girls and girls with crazy long legs (disproportionately so), there's just no way we can all lift exactly the same and perform our best. IF you're lucky enough to have a great coach, they'll fine tune yours to suit you.

I know exactly what you mean about walking around and feeling like your hips are clicking out. I used to have that all the time until I started training (5 years ago now). I hadn't had that feeling for years until this year that I've been pregnant and had the relaxin hormones. So the training will really help you gain control over your mobility.

Last little bit of personal advice... you've gotta stop the party tricks This could be way off base, but if you tend to show off your flexibility... particularly after a couple of drinks... you have to stop as it can set your progress back... but that might just be me because I am a show-off

CoderGal

By dive-bomb I basically mean losing tension at the bottom of the squat, plunging too fast and not being able to get back up again. If you're like me you can probably sit almost *kitten* on ankles at the bottom of a squat (unweighted). The problem is that with alot of weight on your back you just won't get back up again unless you maintain that tension. That goes for everyone, but its amplified when your loss of tension = really really loose, like us.

As for squat stance, its good to begin with the standard template, however most serious lifters will end up with a stance/grip/rack position that suits their particular body. I lift with really short girls and girls with crazy long legs (disproportionately so), there's just no way we can all lift exactly the same and perform our best. IF you're lucky enough to have a great coach, they'll fine tune yours to suit you.

I know exactly what you mean about walking around and feeling like your hips are clicking out. I used to have that all the time until I started training (5 years ago now). I hadn't had that feeling for years until this year that I've been pregnant and had the relaxin hormones. So the training will really help you gain control over your mobility.

Last little bit of personal advice... you've gotta stop the party tricks This could be way off base, but if you tend to show off your flexibility... particularly after a couple of drinks... you have to stop as it can set your progress back... but that might just be me because I am a show-off

Yep, on the exaggerated case, if my *kitten* was a little longer, it could totally touch my ankles lol. Calf to thigh. if I lean back any farther I would tip over, my weight is most definitely on my heals. I don't go fast but I still have no idea when I should stop.

I was beginning to feel like the only person in the world with that weird hip thing. Terrible but I'm so happy other people have had it lol. I can't wait till my hip stops falling off! That'd be amazballs. "Wait honey, let me put my hip back on..." kind of makes me feel old though this has been happening as long as I remember.

LOL I may perform the occasional party trick on request *shifty*....That aside I absolutely love my dance/yoga/pilates. I'm purely into dance for the stretching. I'll always be into stretching, for some reason it is the most amazing feeling to me, it relaxes me like crazy. Doesn't matter if people see it or not, I will be stretching and trying not to lose the flexibility I have (without trying to overdo it, overdoing it sucks. I miss it already since I did screw up my leg doing lunges when i started weights. It's been months and still hurts. I can totally lay off the party tricks. I'm sure that'll eventually be replaced by bench pressing people who ask me to do the splits ahaha. :P

CoderGal

What does everyone think of the comment tross0924 made?

There comes a point past 90 degrees where the "meat" of your calf and the "meat" of your hamstring meet and begin to direct pressure into spreading the bones connected by your knee apart. This is bad. This is very very bad with a lot of weight helping to do the spreading. Don't do this. You can squat to a point that just breaks 90 and do just fine, but your shouldn't be touching your heels to your butt, or be anywhere close to this.

given this picture (which is far past 90 degrees, and appears to have proper form)

DopeItUp

Honestly I don't know. Try it and find out. If you're really paranoid about it, just do box squats or something where you are limiting your range of motion intentionally (but still break parallel of course). I do box squats because I'm trying to train myself to hit proper depth/same depth every time.

1holegrouper

Flexibility will only help your squat.
Personally I go *kitten* to grass on squats with high bar placement and while I can't go as heavy when I do them (relative to low bar) like this I definitely feel more quad and glute involvement vs. a low bar.

This^^^

Most people who do squats do it wrong. Your flexibility is an asset and I'm officially jealous

upgetupgetup

I will be stretching and trying not to lose the flexibility I have (without trying to overdo it, overdoing it sucks. I miss it already since I did screw up my leg doing lunges when i started weights. It's been months and still hurts. I can totally lay off the party tricks. I'm sure that'll eventually be replaced by bench pressing people who ask me to do the splits ahaha. :P

Not to be annoying, but for the love of all things, please get that leg looked after, & try not to aggravate it until it doesn't hurt anymore. Maybe even the squats are doing that.

I am furious with myself for the pain I've got in my ankle, which I've had for a couple of years on and off, and now affects my *walking*. It started with little ignorable twinges. Very much not ignorable now. No one can yet tell me what it is, but it affects my life on a daily basis, and the grandma routine I'm on (am no grandma) sucks, there's no chance of me playing any kind of rec sport, and when I dance (which I love, too), I bloody pay for it. Sorry, loads of projection just there - and your body is different, obviously, and I know you're driven - but it's no fun to have your life impacted in such a way. Argh, that was prob more for myself than you. But please guard your bendy legs.

Nataliaho

By dive-bomb I basically mean losing tension at the bottom of the squat, plunging too fast and not being able to get back up again. If you're like me you can probably sit almost *kitten* on ankles at the bottom of a squat (unweighted). The problem is that with alot of weight on your back you just won't get back up again unless you maintain that tension. That goes for everyone, but its amplified when your loss of tension = really really loose, like us.

As for squat stance, its good to begin with the standard template, however most serious lifters will end up with a stance/grip/rack position that suits their particular body. I lift with really short girls and girls with crazy long legs (disproportionately so), there's just no way we can all lift exactly the same and perform our best. IF you're lucky enough to have a great coach, they'll fine tune yours to suit you.

I know exactly what you mean about walking around and feeling like your hips are clicking out. I used to have that all the time until I started training (5 years ago now). I hadn't had that feeling for years until this year that I've been pregnant and had the relaxin hormones. So the training will really help you gain control over your mobility.

Last little bit of personal advice... you've gotta stop the party tricks This could be way off base, but if you tend to show off your flexibility... particularly after a couple of drinks... you have to stop as it can set your progress back... but that might just be me because I am a show-off

Yep, on the exaggerated case, if my *kitten* was a little longer, it could totally touch my ankles lol. Calf to thigh. if I lean back any farther I would tip over, my weight is most definitely on my heals. I don't go fast but I still have no idea when I should stop.

I was beginning to feel like the only person in the world with that weird hip thing. Terrible but I'm so happy other people have had it lol. I can't wait till my hip stops falling off! That'd be amazballs. "Wait honey, let me put my hip back on..." kind of makes me feel old though this has been happening as long as I remember.

LOL I may perform the occasional party trick on request *shifty*....That aside I absolutely love my dance/yoga/pilates. I'm purely into dance for the stretching. I'll always be into stretching, for some reason it is the most amazing feeling to me, it relaxes me like crazy. Doesn't matter if people see it or not, I will be stretching and trying not to lose the flexibility I have (without trying to overdo it, overdoing it sucks. I miss it already since I did screw up my leg doing lunges when i started weights. It's been months and still hurts. I can totally lay off the party tricks. I'm sure that'll eventually be replaced by bench pressing people who ask me to do the splits ahaha. :P

Ha, thats totally it. I used to do the splits or do a backbend and touch my ankles... now I insist on deadlifting people or even on occasion cleaning them

Also that pic you posted is pretty much my form. The only knee issue I've ever had was caused by me totally bombing a lift and actually falling in on my knee. That would have injured anyone, in fact I'd say my flexibility actually stopped me from completely tearing it.

I just had a thought too. I actually started with olympic lifting and then started powerlifting. With cleans and snatches you really jump into a deep squat. Watch those dudes and they are getting way way beyond parallel because the lower you get, the lower you have to get the bar up and still get under it... all which leads to heavier lifts.

I concur on getting your leg seen to. You're an athlete now... need to look after your machine!! :drinker:

CoderGal

This is a good reference:

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:The_Lifts

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Squat_Videos

Kinda wish Rippetoe was around here to tell me how to drive my *kitten*.