Strong Lifts vs. Starting Strength
Replies
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The 5x5 protocol should only be done for a few weeks in my opinion. It's for the completely untrained newbie only. Afterwards, it's too much volume and will interfere with progression. 3x5 is better. I am pretty sure this is written into the StrongLifts plan, but most people don't read the whole thing so they end up doing 5x5 for months.
The SL plan has you doing 5x5 full-time until you have to reset on a lift for the 3rd time. Then you switch to 3x5. Then 1x5. Of course, by that time, you're probably lifting enough to where 5/3/1 would be better. But that's a ways down the road.
Maybe this is my imagination, but I don't think anybody really reads past the descriptions of "Workout A" and "Workout B"... It seems to always come as a surprise to the person when I tell them to switch to 3x5....
Then I guess I'm the special snowflake that actually read Mehdi's novel. :laugh:
eta: It occurs to me that I may have completely misunderstood what you meant here...0 -
How long did you maintain the linear progression?You can't do either of these on a calorie deficit...how can you when you're adding 5lbs every workout? You'd last 3 weeks at best before being pinned.
Of course you can. I've done SS and 5/3/1 while in calorie deficit and made tremendous strength gains.
Of course you can make gains on a calorie deficit. But SS is too demanding.0 -
Check this out! "They" Always argue that heavy is short 3-5 rep for stregnth while 75% stregnth 10-12 high rep is for mass with a bit of stregnth. So you can either go heavy with high weight or you can go High rep with lower weight, but you can't have both........Oh yes you can, that's right you can go heavy and high rep! It's a new training program I just completed 1 week on and it is just destroying me.
The following technique is called the "Heavy High-Rep Rest/Pause Technique"
The goal is to hit a total of 15 reps with a weight that is set to your 8 rep max!
Began by setting your weight to your 8 rep max. Once you reach failure, rack your weight and take a BRIEF 10-15 Sec. rest/pause. Immediately continue on the rep you left off at 9, 10, 11. failure! rest/pause again! than 12, 13 Failure, rest/pause 14, 15 Complete!!! Thats one set down! Now you take an actual 90 sec rest. but no more than 3 minutes!!
The sets are super tuff! very important that the pauses are kept rediculously short 10-15 sec. torwards the end of a set you're likely to even be going one at a time until you hit your 15.
This technique was illustrated by Michael Berg, NSCA-CPT in the October 2012 issue of Muscle & Performance. The Article focused the technique on Tricep mass building. but is a great technique that works for about anything. Changes things up! that's for sure.0 -
Check this out! "They" Always argue that heavy is short 3-5 rep for stregnth while 75% stregnth 10-12 high rep is for mass with a bit of stregnth. So you can either go heavy with high weight or you can go High rep with lower weight, but you can't have both........Oh yes you can, that's right you can go heavy and high rep! It's a new training program I just completed 1 week on and it is just destroying me.
The following technique is called the "Heavy High-Rep Rest/Pause Technique"
The goal is to hit a total of 15 reps with a weight that is set to your 8 rep max!
Began by setting your weight to your 8 rep max. Once you reach failure, rack your weight and take a BRIEF 10-15 Sec. rest/pause. Immediately continue on the rep you left off at 9, 10, 11. failure! rest/pause again! than 12, 13 Failure, rest/pause 14, 15 Complete!!! Thats one set down! Now you take an actual 90 sec rest. but no more than 3 minutes!!
The sets are super tuff! very important that the pauses are kept rediculously short 10-15 sec. torwards the end of a set you're likely to even be going one at a time until you hit your 15.
This technique was illustrated by Michael Berg, NSCA-CPT in the October 2012 issue of Muscle & Performance. The Article focused the technique on Tricep mass building. but is a great technique that works for about anything. Changes things up! that's for sure.
Google "breathing squats" and you'll see this is not a new idea.0 -
REad starting strength.
do stronglifts until you can't get 5x5 in.
Then switch to 3x5
Personally, i like GSLP.0 -
Check this out! "They" Always argue that heavy is short 3-5 rep for stregnth while 75% stregnth 10-12 high rep is for mass with a bit of stregnth. So you can either go heavy with high weight or you can go High rep with lower weight, but you can't have both........Oh yes you can, that's right you can go heavy and high rep! It's a new training program I just completed 1 week on and it is just destroying me.
The following technique is called the "Heavy High-Rep Rest/Pause Technique"
The goal is to hit a total of 15 reps with a weight that is set to your 8 rep max!
Began by setting your weight to your 8 rep max. Once you reach failure, rack your weight and take a BRIEF 10-15 Sec. rest/pause. Immediately continue on the rep you left off at 9, 10, 11. failure! rest/pause again! than 12, 13 Failure, rest/pause 14, 15 Complete!!! Thats one set down! Now you take an actual 90 sec rest. but no more than 3 minutes!!
The sets are super tuff! very important that the pauses are kept rediculously short 10-15 sec. torwards the end of a set you're likely to even be going one at a time until you hit your 15.
This technique was illustrated by Michael Berg, NSCA-CPT in the October 2012 issue of Muscle & Performance. The Article focused the technique on Tricep mass building. but is a great technique that works for about anything. Changes things up! that's for sure.
I'm not even sure what my 8 rep max is at this point lol.. remember..beginner..REad starting strength.
do stronglifts until you can't get 5x5 in.
Then switch to 3x5
Personally, i like GSLP.
GSLP? I don't know what that is..0 -
bump0
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Check this out! "They" Always argue that heavy is short 3-5 rep for stregnth while 75% stregnth 10-12 high rep is for mass with a bit of stregnth. So you can either go heavy with high weight or you can go High rep with lower weight, but you can't have both........Oh yes you can, that's right you can go heavy and high rep! It's a new training program I just completed 1 week on and it is just destroying me.
The following technique is called the "Heavy High-Rep Rest/Pause Technique"
The goal is to hit a total of 15 reps with a weight that is set to your 8 rep max!
Began by setting your weight to your 8 rep max. Once you reach failure, rack your weight and take a BRIEF 10-15 Sec. rest/pause. Immediately continue on the rep you left off at 9, 10, 11. failure! rest/pause again! than 12, 13 Failure, rest/pause 14, 15 Complete!!! Thats one set down! Now you take an actual 90 sec rest. but no more than 3 minutes!!
The sets are super tuff! very important that the pauses are kept rediculously short 10-15 sec. torwards the end of a set you're likely to even be going one at a time until you hit your 15.
This technique was illustrated by Michael Berg, NSCA-CPT in the October 2012 issue of Muscle & Performance. The Article focused the technique on Tricep mass building. but is a great technique that works for about anything. Changes things up! that's for sure.
Google "breathing squats" and you'll see this is not a new idea.
Your interest is appreciated. you're right we didn't just re-invent the wheel. My mistake was in the way I phrased my message. what I meant was that it was a new program for me. NOT that it was a new program in general.0 -
You can't do either of these on a calorie deficit...how can you when you're adding 5lbs every workout? You'd last 3 weeks at best before being pinned.
Hmmmm....I must be totally awesome then...I've been going strong now for 9 weeks with good linear gains.0 -
You can't do either of these on a calorie deficit...how can you when you're adding 5lbs every workout? You'd last 3 weeks at best before being pinned.
Hmmmm....I must be totally awesome then...I've been going strong now for 9 weeks with good linear gains.
I do plan on maintaining my deficit (I eat about 1600cals/day) and adding calories as needed for addition energy based on expenditure.. I still have about 10 lbs or so to lose ideally but dropping BF is more of the concern0 -
Check this out! "They" Always argue that heavy is short 3-5 rep for stregnth while 75% stregnth 10-12 high rep is for mass with a bit of stregnth. So you can either go heavy with high weight or you can go High rep with lower weight, but you can't have both........Oh yes you can, that's right you can go heavy and high rep! It's a new training program I just completed 1 week on and it is just destroying me.
The following technique is called the "Heavy High-Rep Rest/Pause Technique"
The goal is to hit a total of 15 reps with a weight that is set to your 8 rep max!
Began by setting your weight to your 8 rep max. Once you reach failure, rack your weight and take a BRIEF 10-15 Sec. rest/pause. Immediately continue on the rep you left off at 9, 10, 11. failure! rest/pause again! than 12, 13 Failure, rest/pause 14, 15 Complete!!! Thats one set down! Now you take an actual 90 sec rest. but no more than 3 minutes!!
The sets are super tuff! very important that the pauses are kept rediculously short 10-15 sec. torwards the end of a set you're likely to even be going one at a time until you hit your 15.
This technique was illustrated by Michael Berg, NSCA-CPT in the October 2012 issue of Muscle & Performance. The Article focused the technique on Tricep mass building. but is a great technique that works for about anything. Changes things up! that's for sure.
I'm not even sure what my 8 rep max is at this point lol.. remember..beginner..REad starting strength.
do stronglifts until you can't get 5x5 in.
Then switch to 3x5
Personally, i like GSLP.
GSLP? I don't know what that is..
Greyskull Linear Progression. It's another similar beginner-oriented program that is based on the same basic training regimen as SS/SL but adds a few of its own little things in there. Regardless of which one you go with you should read the book Starting Strength.0 -
I personally like Stronglifts. It's 12 weeks. I like the gains that I have made in the 4 weeks that I have been on the program. He has a more updated version and has made some changes. Of course you will have to do a fair amount of reading to see why he made the changes and the rationale behind the changes. I'm also a nervous nelly and I read and research like crazy.
Here's the link to the updated version. At least the most recent version I've found.
I will move on to other things once I've completed this program. But I think this is perfect for the beginner.
Good Luck, I know that you will be awesome whatever program you choose.
http://www.lundswingtsun.se/pdfwce/stronglifts5x5.pdf0 -
Greyskull Linear Progression. It's another similar beginner-oriented program that is based on the same basic training regimen as SS/SL but adds a few of its own little things in there. Regardless of which one you go with you should read the book Starting Strength.
plan on it now definitely
I personally like Stronglifts. It's 12 weeks. I like the gains that I have made in the 4 weeks that I have been on the program. He has a more updated version and has made some changes. Of course you will have to do a fair amount of reading to see why he made the changes and the rationale behind the changes. I'm also a nervous nelly and I read and research like crazy.
Here's the link to the updated version. At least the most recent version I've found.
I will move on to other things once I've completed this program. But I think this is perfect for the beginner.
Good Luck, I know that you will be awesome whatever program you choose.
http://www.lundswingtsun.se/pdfwce/stronglifts5x5.pdf
Printing now thank you. I'm still going to get SS but will need the SL when I go to 3x50 -
I've never done SS but have done SL's for close to a year with a break here and there. From what I can see, they are very similar but SS seems more complicated to me. I wanted the cliff's notes version and got it it with SL. Basically, 5x5 isn't that complicated and I have no desire to read a book about it.
After a few months, I had to switch to 3x5 and then eventually 1x5 as I am in a caloric deficit. I saw great gains but to be honest....I was really more concerned with keeping my muscle mass while I lost weight than benching my body weight. If you aren't eating in a surplus, there is only so much strength you can gain. I even dropped to doing the program twice per week and it suited me just fine.
As a woman, eventually you WILL NOT be able to make 5 pound gain on a weekly basis. You will stall out. Especially with upper body lifts (OHP's are killer). I strongly recommend you get some fractional plates to use for whatever program you go with. As you get more advanced, you might start adding in some ISO work which is what I did. All in all, I think SL's is a great program for beginners. We have a SL group on MFP btw....full of lots of bad *kitten* girls who love to root each other on!0 -
Sarcasm? Maybe you are awesome!You can't do either of these on a calorie deficit...how can you when you're adding 5lbs every workout? You'd last 3 weeks at best before being pinned.
Hmmmm....I must be totally awesome then...I've been going strong now for 9 weeks with good linear gains.
Okay I exaggerated with the 3 weeks.0 -
I've never done SS but have done SL's for close to a year with a break here and there. From what I can see, they are very similar but SS seems more complicated to me. I wanted the cliff's notes version and got it it with SL. Basically, 5x5 isn't that complicated and I have no desire to read a book about it.
After a few months, I had to switch to 3x5 and then eventually 1x5 as I am in a caloric deficit. I saw great gains but to be honest....I was really more concerned with keeping my muscle mass while I lost weight than benching my body weight. If you aren't eating in a surplus, there is only so much strength you can gain. I even dropped to doing the program twice per week and it suited me just fine.
As a woman, eventually you WILL NOT be able to make 5 pound gain on a weekly basis. You will stall out. Especially with upper body lifts (OHP's are killer). I strongly recommend you get some fractional plates to use for whatever program you go with. As you get more advanced, you might start adding in some ISO work which is what I did. All in all, I think SL's is a great program for beginners. We have a SL group on MFP btw....full of lots of bad *kitten* girls who love to root each other on!
I currently do TONS of iso work with weights (DL, cleans, bent over rows, squats, ab work with plates and chest press) but would like to up my strength gains. I can squat and lunge a ton but you can only do 100 reps of squats with so much weight... It was my way to get started and I have seen lots of physique improvements (see my photos) but I'm ready to go after my strength gains more 0 -
I do the strong lifts program I'm still in the early stages. I have not tried the starting strength program. I cannot compare them. Strong lifts is nice if you want to start right now, have videos to watch online for free to show you how to do the moves, a free electronic newsletter, a facebook forum where you can ask questions, and there are free smartphone apps available for doing & tracking the program, with all the different stages 5x5, 3x5, 1x5. It will automatically calculate and tell the next level of weights you should be up to. I use Lifting Buddy. It's also free.0
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Here is my summary...
They are more or less the same.
"Mostly", people who go with Starting Strength read the book, get an excellent foundation of knowledge, and end up being very strong.
"Mostly", people who go with StrongLifts do so because they don't feel like reading a book, and end up getting stuck at some point.
As far as programming, they are virtually identical. StrongLifts is 5x5; Starting Strength is 3x5. StrongLifts has the Barbell Row whereas SS has the Power Clean. It is very common to substitute the Row for the Power Clean, and many people do that because the Power Clean is very hard to get right without coaching.
The 5x5 protocol should only be done for a few weeks in my opinion. It's for the completely untrained newbie only. Afterwards, it's too much volume and will interfere with progression. 3x5 is better. I am pretty sure this is written into the StrongLifts plan, but most people don't read the whole thing so they end up doing 5x5 for months.
Bottom line - whatever you do, if you're serious about these compound lifts, you should read the book Starting Strength. At the end of the day, there is really no difference between SS with Rows and SL. But having read Starting Strength, you will be armed with more understanding and will make better progress.
Excellent post! I totally agree.0 -
I did stronlifts for 6 weeks...if i really did my research i would have done SS....I like power cleans...that's pretty much the only reason...also like others said..you cant do 5x5 for the entire program....5x5 squats three times a week was starting to kill my joints and i switched to 3x5....I was was starting to stall on my Bench and OHP...I was on a cal def/I feel this program required me to eat more/once i finish leaning out..I will pick up one of these programs again...0
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feY6vi6ORXo
this is a variation of stronglifts that has a bit more assistance work and I think is more well rounded - If i were a fresh lifter I would do something like this for my first at least 6 months then re-evaluate volume and if I want to add more.0 -
Sarcasm? Maybe you are awesome!You can't do either of these on a calorie deficit...how can you when you're adding 5lbs every workout? You'd last 3 weeks at best before being pinned.
Hmmmm....I must be totally awesome then...I've been going strong now for 9 weeks with good linear gains.
Okay I exaggerated with the 3 weeks.
LOL...I got your point...I'm hoping I don't hit the wall before I get to maintenance...doing 1/2 Lb per week deficit right now with about 15 Lbs left to go.0 -
Stronglifts is not a 12 week program he justs markets it that way to make sure you see some results with the liner progression. It really doesnt end until you end up having to goto 3x5 and then 1x5 as TASO said.
I love stronglifts and I have just finished my 12th week and hope to keep going for another 12. I have seen a lot of changes in my lifts as well as my body. Looking pretty damn good so far.
I hate power cleans which is why I didnt do starting strength but both are very good programs. I picked stronglifts because it is quick and easy to follow.
As for the guy that said you cant make strength gains on a deficit I half agree with you. Once you start to max out in your weights then it is very hard to see additional gains but thats not to say it wont lift what your max is before you get there. There is no way I could 1rm 265 deadlift 3 months ago or squat 220 if I tried. Im sure at some point I will have to start eating a lot more to see gains but until then I'm going to lose as much as I can.1 -
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Thanks everyone for the feedback already started reading 0
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I've never done SS but have done SL's for close to a year with a break here and there. From what I can see, they are very similar but SS seems more complicated to me. I wanted the cliff's notes version and got it it with SL. Basically, 5x5 isn't that complicated and I have no desire to read a book about it.
After a few months, I had to switch to 3x5 and then eventually 1x5 as I am in a caloric deficit. I saw great gains but to be honest....I was really more concerned with keeping my muscle mass while I lost weight than benching my body weight. If you aren't eating in a surplus, there is only so much strength you can gain. I even dropped to doing the program twice per week and it suited me just fine.
As a woman, eventually you WILL NOT be able to make 5 pound gain on a weekly basis. You will stall out. Especially with upper body lifts (OHP's are killer). I strongly recommend you get some fractional plates to use for whatever program you go with. As you get more advanced, you might start adding in some ISO work which is what I did. All in all, I think SL's is a great program for beginners. We have a SL group on MFP btw....full of lots of bad *kitten* girls who love to root each other on!
I currently do TONS of iso work with weights (DL, cleans, bent over rows, squats, ab work with plates and chest press) but would like to up my strength gains. I can squat and lunge a ton but you can only do 100 reps of squats with so much weight... It was my way to get started and I have seen lots of physique improvements (see my photos) but I'm ready to go after my strength gains more
FYI-SL is only about compound lifts...it sounds like you are doing those already. Squats, deads, bench press, OHP and rows are not ISO moves. They are compound moves as they use several muscles at one time. It may only be three moves in a session, but SL is a whole body workout. If you want to work on strength, SL is awesome....but you will need to eat more than maintenance after a while if you want to see big strength gains....without fuel, you will stall. I think you should try it....it is an awesome program!0 -
FYI-SL is only about compound lifts...it sounds like you are doing those already. Squats, deads, bench press, OHP and rows are not ISO moves. They are compound moves as they use several muscles at one time. It may only be three moves in a session, but SL is a whole body workout. If you want to work on strength, SL is awesome....but you will need to eat more than maintenance after a while if you want to see big strength gains....without fuel, you will stall. I think you should try it....it is an awesome program!
Sorry.. sometimes I get mixed up on the terminology. lol Mainly I'm doing all of these exercises with low to moderate weight and very high rep so I'm looking to pull back from that and focus on higher weight and lower reps. I'm definitely going to do the program and I am aware of the stall, but as of present I have about 10-12 pounds I'd like to get rid of. I however, don't make it a major priority as I would rather lose body fat so as long as I can do that I'm happy.. I know I will eventually have to up my cals for increased gains and I will cross that bridge when I come to it. I eat roughly 1600 cals/day. I want more strength like a power builder without compromising aesthetics. a Power Builder if you will LOL :laugh:0 -
Here is my summary...
They are more or less the same.
"Mostly", people who go with Starting Strength read the book, get an excellent foundation of knowledge, and end up being very strong.
"Mostly", people who go with StrongLifts do so because they don't feel like reading a book, and end up getting stuck at some point.
As far as programming, they are virtually identical. StrongLifts is 5x5; Starting Strength is 3x5. StrongLifts has the Barbell Row whereas SS has the Power Clean. It is very common to substitute the Row for the Power Clean, and many people do that because the Power Clean is very hard to get right without coaching.
The 5x5 protocol should only be done for a few weeks in my opinion. It's for the completely untrained newbie only. Afterwards, it's too much volume and will interfere with progression. 3x5 is better. I am pretty sure this is written into the StrongLifts plan, but most people don't read the whole thing so they end up doing 5x5 for months.
Bottom line - whatever you do, if you're serious about these compound lifts, you should read the book Starting Strength. At the end of the day, there is really no difference between SS with Rows and SL. But having read Starting Strength, you will be armed with more understanding and will make better progress.
mostly this. someone actually eating a surplus could probably get a bit more size gain doing 5x5 vs 3x5 thanks to the added volume\TUT, but would probably be at a bit lower weight for work sets.0 -
I'm currently following Starting Strength, but with a slight variation. Mondays I do power cleans, Wednesdays I do deadlifts, and Fridays I do barbell rows. I also add some of the assistance exercises that he recommends on Fridays, like lying tricep extensions, and barbell curls.0
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bump!0
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