BMR for the obese QUESTION?!

wildaaron

So BMR - The online calculators for that, do they really take into account obesity because I don't see how my body would need so many extra calories when it's just got a lot of extra fat on it, If it was this weight in muscle, sure I understand you gotta feed em like a pet or else they'll die and go away.

omma_to_3

Yes, they are just as accurate for the obese as for the non-obese. I say "just as accurate" because they're all just an estimate anyway.

jst1986

I personally don't think it does, the exception being the Katch-McArdle method which might not be any more accurate but at least considers body fat. As a bloke of 350lb my TDEE with these calculators come in at 4000+ and my BMR at over 3000!

wildaaron

Yeah just a few BMR calculators I've looked at say I should be consuming 3000 calories a day just to stay alive....I....I don't think that's right.

WendyTerry420

So BMR - The online calculators for that, do they really take into account obesity because I don't see how my body would need so many extra calories when it's just got a lot of extra fat on it, If it was this weight in muscle, sure I understand you gotta feed em like a pet or else they'll die and go away.

The extra fat means extra weight, which means your body burns more calories just standing or walking than you would burn if you didn't have the extra fat. That being said, the calculators are averages. They are based on the average person. Some people find they are too low or too high. For me, all the calculators say my BMR is about 1700, but come to find out, that's actually low. My BMR is actually probably closer to 2000, based on my food diary numbers and the amount of weight I've lost. Last week, I averaged 2300 calories and still lost a half a pound. My true TDEE is roughly 2500. There are some that swing the other way though,

The best bet is to try the online estimate to start off and then adjust after you've been logging for several weeks.

BflSaberfan

As you start to lose weight the BMR will decrease. Do not eat below your BMR, right now your organs are working harder (burning more calories) because of the extra weight. BMR is what you need to just stay alive. You shouldn't be eating any where near your BMR.

jst1986

Although people say don't eat BMR I have been doing daily for the last three months without issues, because I quite simply cannot eat 3000-4000 calories a day. I know others who've done the same...

Greenrun99

Yeah just a few BMR calculators I've looked at say I should be consuming 3000 calories a day just to stay alive....I....I don't think that's right.

If you are obese your BMR maybe this high.. but since you have so much weight to lose you can have a huge deficit from your TDEE.. as you lose weight you will want to readjust your numbers and try to manage a 2-3 lb weight loss a week..

If your BMR is 3000, I would focus on eating 2-2500 calories a day of Healthy foods and see if you lose, if not adjust by 100 calories up and down to see if anything changes.. Now if you drop weight too fast you may have access skin after you journey.. but some people may not really care about that until they look in the mirror and see it.

wildaaron

Thanks all - is starting to make sense, I'm going to keep an eye on everything and see how it goes, I've at least been trying to eat healthy and will just have to see how the next few weeks go and re-evaluate then.

neandermagnon

The Harris Benedict formula is based on height and weight, and assumes an average body fat percentage, so yes it would take into account obesity.

I learned recently that the Katch McArdle formula does not take body fat into account, only lean body mass.

So, for an obese person, the Harris Benedict formula is best. For someone who has a healthy body fat percentage but more lean body mass for their height than average, the Katch McArdle formula is better.

jst1986

I don't think MFP deals with obese numbers very well at all to be honest. At 350lb my BMR according to https://www.myfitnesspal.com/tools/bmr-calculator is 2700 but will quite happily give me a daily goal of 2400 even to lose a moderate 2lb a week!

jimfoxer

Put a 100 lb. backpack on your pack and climb a flight of stairs, or walk to the kitchen. See how much more effort that takes? That is what you are doing essentially. Put that backpack on your chest and try to breathe. That extra effort, burns calories. You have extra muscles you don't even know about which have developed to carry the weight you have that burn calories. Just because you are used to your weight, doesn't mean that it doesn't require effort to move it and feed the muscles that do. That is why, invariably, as the obese lose weight they also lose muscle. Here is what I do: Get a good scale that calculates body fat, and weigh yourself at the same time with relatively the same hydration to get a good baseline of your fat in pounds. The body is only able to metabolize 31 calories for pound of fat a day (and I'm talking only fat pounds here) (resource: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15615615). If you have a 100 pounds of fat, the body can't metabolize more than 3100 calories from fat; if you have more than that as a deficit it's going to come from somewhere else (usually muscle). Use the Katch-McArdale formula to compute your BMR (http://www.freedieting.com/tools/calorie_calculator.htm). And for the obese (myself still included), take heart because the weight comes off much faster and easier because of our higher BMR and our ability to go into a greater deficit. The more you lose, the harder it is to lose; your BMR gets smaller, your body can't metabolize as many calories from fat since there isn't much left, and it get's quite difficult. Watch gleefully as the weight comes off, and recalculate your numbers with every weigh in. Or be lazy like me and get a Withings scale and a BodyMedia fit, and make them do all the work for you

omma_to_3

Although people say don't eat BMR I have been doing daily for the last three months without issues, because I quite simply cannot eat 3000-4000 calories a day. I know others who've done the same...

I've seen no scientific evidence that eating below your BMR (reasonably below, not very low calorie diets) causes issues. I've been doing it for 2 years now. I am not wasting away - just losing at a reasonable pace. My body fat, while still high, is below what the online estimators say (so presumably means that I'm more muscular than average). However, on workout days, I eat back all of my calories. I net below my BMR, but on workout days, I eat much closer to it, or over it. I aim to net 1200 calories a day (though I probably average about 1300 net because I tend to go over). On workout days, that might mean I eat 1400 or all the way up to 2400 on long run days. My RMR was tested at 1662 last summer. It's probably less now, but at that time, it was about 10% higher than online estimators, so again, leads me to believe that I'm more muscular than average.

When you're starting out obese, you can definitely get away with smaller deficits. You have a large muscle mass to support all that weight so you can stand to lose some muscle. I have another Bod Pod test scheduled for Friday to see how much my BF percentage has dropped since last summer. It will be interesting to see how much lean mass I've lost since then.

Francl27

As others said, it's because you have so much more weight to move, you end up burning more.

It kinda makes sense. I was around 200 lb 8 years ago, eating all kind of junk (fast food, a lot of cheese and chocolate), and it took me 8 years for the scale to go up.

WendyTerry420

The Harris Benedict formula is based on height and weight, and assumes an average body fat percentage, so yes it would take into account obesity.

I learned recently that the Katch McArdle formula does not take body fat into account, only lean body mass.

So, for an obese person, the Harris Benedict formula is best. For someone who has a healthy body fat percentage but more lean body mass for their height than average, the Katch McArdle formula is better.

I don't see how that's possible that the Katch McArdle formula is better if you have higher LBM for your height/weight. It has me eating barely more than half the calories that I'm currently eating to lose about a pound a week.

Caloric Need:
Estimated Base BMR: 1509 Calories.
Estimated TDEE: 1811 Calories.
Estimated Daily Caloric Need For Weight Loss: 1311 Calories.

It says my TDEE would be 1811, yet my true TDEE, from logging for seven months, is actually 2500. I think that calculator is the worst for persons with higher LBM.

Ploogy

Take the guesswork out of the equation. Get an RMR testing done. I'm going to do so. For $100, I'll know what my BMR which a high degree of accuracy is, and can calculate my TDEE from there. Playing roulette with the calculators sn't worth it, IMHO.

cng31183

The body is only able to metabolize 31 calories for pound of fat a day (and I'm talking only fat pounds here) (resource: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15615615). If you have a 100 pounds of fat, the body can't metabolize more than 3100 calories from fat; if you have more than that as a deficit it's going to come from somewhere else (usually muscle).

Never knew that!! Learn something new every day

chellebublz

I have a Body Media Fit too and love it. It uses the Harris Benedict formula from what I've read. And the whole BMR/TDEE thing tells me to eat almost 2400 calories a day, while with Body Media I only need to eat 1700 at the most so far to keep a 1000 calorie deficit. And I am still losing steadily doing that.

I really don't think it's important to eat above BMR when you have so much extra weight. When I get closer to a healthier weight, yes I will deft add more calories and all. But right now, I'm doing cardio and strength activities as well as maintaining a 1000cal deficit and losing steadily. Some weeks I don't lose anything and still lose inches while getting stronger and lasting longer in my workouts. So this tells me I'm burning fat and not muscle.

karenhray7

Take the guesswork out of the equation. Get an RMR testing done. I'm going to do so. For $100, I'll know what my BMR which a high degree of accuracy is, and can calculate my TDEE from there. Playing roulette with the calculators sn't worth it, IMHO.

Yep. I had a body composition scan done and I'm so glad I did. Turns out my actual BMR is almost 200 calories under the number from the online calculators. Apparently I'm rather buff underneath all this extra..uh..stored energy.

neandermagnon

The Harris Benedict formula is based on height and weight, and assumes an average body fat percentage, so yes it would take into account obesity.

I learned recently that the Katch McArdle formula does not take body fat into account, only lean body mass.

So, for an obese person, the Harris Benedict formula is best. For someone who has a healthy body fat percentage but more lean body mass for their height than average, the Katch McArdle formula is better.

I don't see how that's possible that the Katch McArdle formula is better if you have higher LBM for your height/weight. It has me eating barely more than half the calories that I'm currently eating to lose about a pound a week.

Caloric Need:
Estimated Base BMR: 1509 Calories.
Estimated TDEE: 1811 Calories.
Estimated Daily Caloric Need For Weight Loss: 1311 Calories.

It says my TDEE would be 1811, yet my true TDEE, from logging for seven months, is actually 2500. I think that calculator is the worst for persons with higher LBM.

It doesn't take into account the calories for carrying extra body fat - I recommended the Harris Benedict one for someone who is obese. Katch McArdle I recommended for someone who has a healthy range body fat percentage and a high lean body mass for their height. For me Katch McArdle gives the best estimate, based on my real world results, my body fat percentage is 22%, and my BMI is 24.6 or something (5'1", 130lb). Harris Benedict would assume I have an average frame, and so it underestimates my calories, because I have a large frame (i.e. more lean body mass for my height). Katch McArdle assumes I have average body fat (22% is about average) and it's based on my lean body mass, so it gives the best numbers for me.

Harris Benedict is based on height and weight, and assumes an average frame size/lean body mass. The extra calories burned by carrying more fat around, and keeping those cells alive, are what account for the difference, and the heavier you are, the higher your calories will be. Katch McArdle takes into account only lean body mass, and assumes an average amount of body fat, so won't account for the extra calories from carrying more fat than average.

Someone who is obese (according to body fat percentage) should use Harris Benedict, even if they also have a large frame. Someone who has a healthy body fat percentage should use Katch McArdle. Someone who has an average frame size and a healthy body fat percentage will probably not find much difference in their results with the two formulas.

They're all estimates, it's a matter of using the right one for the right person. I'm just not sure who the one MFP uses would be best for.

SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish

Although people say don't eat BMR I have been doing daily for the last three months without issues, because I quite simply cannot eat 3000-4000 calories a day. I know others who've done the same...

I've seen no scientific evidence that eating below your BMR (reasonably below, not very low calorie diets) causes issues. I've been doing it for 2 years now. I am not wasting away - just losing at a reasonable pace. My body fat, while still high, is below what the online estimators say (so presumably means that I'm more muscular than average). However, on workout days, I eat back all of my calories. I net below my BMR, but on workout days, I eat much closer to it, or over it. I aim to net 1200 calories a day (though I probably average about 1300 net because I tend to go over). On workout days, that might mean I eat 1400 or all the way up to 2400 on long run days. My RMR was tested at 1662 last summer. It's probably less now, but at that time, it was about 10% higher than online estimators, so again, leads me to believe that I'm more muscular than average.

When you're starting out obese, you can definitely get away with smaller deficits. You have a large muscle mass to support all that weight so you can stand to lose some muscle. I have another Bod Pod test scheduled for Friday to see how much my BF percentage has dropped since last summer. It will be interesting to see how much lean mass I've lost since then.

I'm not jewish but I believe the correct response to this is definitely Oy Vey! Your statements and reasoning here are almost all wrong, but if you ignore the reasoning, you do find your way to the right in summary result! So this is dangerous since someone might take this reasoning for correct and apply it to a different situation.

--> I've seen no scientific evidence that eating below your BMR (reasonably below, not very low calorie diets) causes issues.

Unless you think you can get calories out of thin air, you dont agree with what you said: BMR is Basal Metabolic Rate of what your body needs for basic functions to survive. To say there is no scientific evidence eating below BMR can cause issues is pretty wild. You dont get a choice on this, your body burns BMR calories no matter what, and if you ingest below this, your body catabolizes another part of your body, or you die. You can eat below true BMR and be fine, but your body EATS ITSELF for the extra calories, in this case it is what we want for weight loss: your body had a deficit and burned (hopefully) fat. If you have a lot of body fat and have proper nutrition, you can do this and be fine, and have to do it to lose weight. But, to suggest there is no scientific evidence it can cause issues and you can do it for years with people of just average height weighing less than 120lbs looking to lose weight too, it is very dangerous. The key is to start with the MFP estimate for your current weight loss goals, exercise, eat back those calories and find out how quickly you yourself are responding, and adjust, so you can achieve a reasonably paced weight loss. (it sounds like you have I'm saying in general)

--> However, on workout days, I eat back all of my calories. I net below my BMR, but on workout days, I eat much closer to it, or over it.
This sounds like you actually eat back the exercise calories (way over your calculated BMR) on workout days, which is perfect, and slightly below on other days, allowing for some muscle growth and increasing your metabolism, while reducing a mild amount on other days for fat burning, it sounds like you are doing a great job.

--> When you're starting out obese, you can definitely get away with smaller deficits. You have a large muscle mass to support all that weight so you can stand to lose some muscle.

Reverse of what you said. You can actually get away with larger deficits when you are starting out obese and be OK, but if you are not, it gets more problematic (and dangerous for those close to the lower end of "average" weight trying to lose). You do have more muscles to move an obese frame around, however it is critical you dont lose that muscle, and the goal should be to increase the muscle: losing it reduces your metabolism, making it harder to lose weight, gaining muscle increases metabolism, making it easier to lose weight. A weight loss program that has less deficit and incorporates exercise is better to preserve the muscle, and maintain that loss after reaching your goal weight. The more of that muscle you lose, the slower your net result in the end.

-->I have another Bod Pod test scheduled for Friday to see how much my BF percentage has dropped since last summer. It will be interesting to see how much lean mass I've lost since then.

If your BF, Body Fat percentage dropped, that is not a lean mass loss, it is what you want, bodyfat loss. Lean mass you hopefully arent losing, as this will reduce your ability to continue losing weight and keeping the weight off later. You can lose both however and still show BF percentage loss, if you lost more fat than lean mass loss in ratio. But that is not to your advantage. You can tell by the estimated total lean mass. However these measures are not very accurate.