Can you gain strength without gaining muscle mass?
ahmommy
Posts: 316 Member
I'm generally confused by all of the conflicting information I've read on these forums over the last couple of years.
Some people will say that in order to achieve body recomposition, you need to go through bulking and cutting cycles and that you absolutely cannot increase muscle mass unless you're eating a surplus of calories. Others say that eating at a moderate deficit (~20% below TDEE) and incorporating strength training is the way to go.
So my question is as in my title - can you increase strength without increasing muscle mass?
Some people will say that in order to achieve body recomposition, you need to go through bulking and cutting cycles and that you absolutely cannot increase muscle mass unless you're eating a surplus of calories. Others say that eating at a moderate deficit (~20% below TDEE) and incorporating strength training is the way to go.
So my question is as in my title - can you increase strength without increasing muscle mass?
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Yes. Bigger muscles don't always mean stronger muscles, and vice versa. Look at female powerlifters. Some of them are teenytiny.
Amanda Harris: http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/BarbieBarbell/
Staci from Nerdfitness: http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/2011/07/21/meet-staci-your-new-powerlifting-super-hero/0 -
Yes. Strength is actually very mental. Your muscles do not have to increase in size to be gain the ability to lift more weight.0
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Yes if you make the CNS more efficient at recuiting existing fibers in certain time periods.0
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Yes if you make the CNS more efficient at recuiting existing fibers in certain time periods.
^^^^^^^^
This, neural adaptation.0 -
I think a program like Starting Strength would be a great way to achieve greater strength.0
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I have been wondering about this as well.0
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Powerlifiters and Olympic lifters get stonger while staying in the same weight class.0
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Ok, I don't want to get into a challenge, just trying to understand...so, you can get stronger and stronger and stronger while eating at a deficit? This flies in the face of everything I have learned about fitness over the past couple of years. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, but it doesn't make sense.
Also, I'm in a bulking cycle, my strength increases are amazing. I'm like the freaking hulk right now. It's absolutely amazing to me how my strength is increasing. And, all the guys I've asked told me that when I go into a cut cycle, I'll lose a lot of that strength. So, my question is, is that wrong?
Thanks.
You can gain strength without gaining mass, I'm sure there are some 155lb MMA fighters who could out lift you but they aren't bulky in anyway. I'm sure you would gain strength faster on a surplus though because your muscles have plenty of fuel to heal but that's just an educated guess...0 -
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Absolutely. That's what the Strength Development stage of periodization is all about.
It's mostly about getting better recruitment of the muscle fibers you already have. It requires some pretty heavy duty lifting, but you can definitely do it.
It's been a while since I've done it (back in my speedskating days), but if I remember right it was something like 6 to 8 sets of 3 to 5 reps (never to failure, but pretty close to maximum weight) with 2 to 3 minutes between sets.
The plan I was on got me up to an 1150 pound leg press and 450 pound squat when I was 170 pounds. Not the kind of weight that guys my size usually pushed.0 -
I suspect that genetics (and drugs?) will have a big role in your ability to increase strength without gaining muscle mass, if it's indeed possible. I'm a big believer that you need to have mass to move mass, but there are some exceptions (*cough *cough anabolics).
According to anecdotal (broscience?) information that I have heard/read, you need to eat at slightly below maintenance, keep the protein to 0.75g-0.8g per pound of bodyweight, do fewer reps at higher weight. Supposedly this "thickens" the muscle fibers but does not build a lot of them (quality over quantity? lol).
I have no idea if this is true. Sounds like the kind of thing that people say because it feels true, rather than is true. But I could be wrong. But if you want to try that approach, then keep detailed records of your routines and measurements - and you might be able to provide some empirical evidence to this issue (your n=1 study, haha).0 -
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Powerlifiters and Olympic lifters get stonger while staying in the same weight class.
How?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_adaptation
Drugs help also.I've been doing it for years at a calorie deficit. I have never ever gained the strength like I have in the past few weeks on a surplus. Ever
nobody is saying strength gains in a deficit will be better or even equal than those on a surplus, just that it is possible.0 -
strength can be achieved through nerve training and people have also found to gain strength through calorie deficits and fasting because studies have shown an increase in the body's ability strength as a survival mechanism.0
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I suspect that genetics (and drugs?) will have a big role in your ability to increase strength without gaining muscle mass, if it's indeed possible. I'm a big believer that you need to have mass to move mass, but there are some exceptions (*cough *cough anabolics).
According to anecdotal (broscience?) information that I have heard/read, you need to eat at slightly below maintenance, keep the protein to 0.75g-0.8g per pound of bodyweight, do fewer reps at higher weight. Supposedly this "thickens" the muscle fibers but does not build a lot of them (quality over quantity? lol).
I have no idea if this is true. Sounds like the kind of thing that people say because it feels true, rather than is true. But I could be wrong. But if you want to try that approach, then keep detailed records of your routines and measurements - and you might be able to provide some empirical evidence to this issue (your n=1 study, haha).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_hypertrophy#Myofibrillar_vs._Sarcoplasmic_hypertrophy0 -
This content has been removed.
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Powerlifiters and Olympic lifters get stonger while staying in the same weight class.
How?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_adaptation
Drugs help also.I've been doing it for years at a calorie deficit. I have never ever gained the strength like I have in the past few weeks on a surplus. Ever
nobody is saying strength gains in a deficit will be better or even equal than those on a surplus, just that it is possible.
But, I thought those strength gains were limited.
I've never seen a skinny guy in a strong man competition, as an example.
because there are no weight classes in strongman competitions, its obvious that someone who is 150kilos has the greater potential for max strength than someone who is 60kilos, so the heaviest people compete.
Look at the powerlifting records for the lower weight classes, the weight they are putting up are insane.0 -
Did you read the thread. Lots of people are saying exactly that.
which post, please quote it?0 -
Yes if you make the CNS more efficient at recuiting existing fibers in certain time periods.
^^^^^^^^
This, neural adaptation.
QFT0 -
I suspect that genetics (and drugs?) will have a big role in your ability to increase strength without gaining muscle mass, if it's even possible.
I think this is somewhat controversial, but in both instances, the muscle size is increased? Correct? Whether it's the fluid or fibers themselves?0 -
Thanks for all the replies!
Honestly, I'm not looking to increase strength without increasing muscle mass, it just seemed like the only solution to two seemingly conflicting pieces of information I see on the boards a lot.
My goal is to decrease my body fat percentage by maintaining or increasing muscle mass and reducing body fat. Since I'm at a healthy weight and relatively high body fat percentage, logic tells me that I need to gain some muscle mass. I've started Power90 with my husband and we're 3 weeks in. I'm eating slightly under maintenance calories, although I don't track every day (I spot check and I've been around long enough to feel comfortable with what I'm eating - although I know it leaves room for error). Right now I'm up a few pounds, but I believe it's a combination of monthly cycle and water weight from my muscles repairing.
I've seen definite strength gains, measurable in the number of pushups, dips, etc that I can do.
If I can't increase muscle mass while eating at a moderate deficit or close to maintenance calories, then I'll settle for increasing strength and maintaining the muscle I have and losing some fat. I'm not comfortable going into a bulk phase right now when I already have too much fat. What I really want the answer to be (as does anyone else, I'm sure) is that I could increase muscle mass (moderately) and reduce body fat.0 -
Powerlifiters and Olympic lifters get stonger while staying in the same weight class.
How?
strength = neural adaption0 -
I suspect that genetics (and drugs?) will have a big role in your ability to increase strength without gaining muscle mass, if it's even possible.
I think this is somewhat controversial, but in both instances, the muscle size is increased? Correct? Whether it's the fluid or fibers themselves?
it's somewhat irrelevant as the article states, you cannot induce one without inducing the other to some degree
Does Gaining Strength On A Cut Equal Muscle Growth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU6LeZRhv6M
Q&A Myofibrillar vs Sacroplasmic Hypertrophy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jckU0MzMtvw
Hypertrophy Range Theory Basics Of Why I Dont Believe In It
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G5Cd3GrJiw
Great youtube channel to subscribe to, this guy knows his stuff.0 -
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I'll check it out , thanks!Does Gaining Strength On A Cut Equal Muscle Growthhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU6LeZRhv6M
Q&A Myofibrillar vs Sacroplasmic Hypertrophyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jckU0MzMtvw
Hypertrophy Range Theory Basics Of Why I Dont Believe In Ithttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G5Cd3GrJiw
Great youtube channel to subscribe to, this guy knows his stuff.0
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