Building muscle on a calorie deficit?
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There are 3 types of individuals that can do this short term: very overweight/obese people on a good resistance training program, athletes returning to lifting after a long layoff, newbies who have NEVER lifted before.
And even then the gains aren't very substantial.
A person needing to lose say 30lbs-40lbs isn't going to build muscle of any significance on a calorie deficit. To build muscle means to ADD MASS. To add mass you need to have a calorie surplus. You DON'T lose weight on a calorie surplus. People can recomp, but in almost all cases I've seen, weight maintenance or a 1lbs-2lbs loss has usually been the best results.
If people are saying they are seeing muscle they've never seen before and are much stronger, then chaulk it up to lower bodyfat and neuromuscular adaptation.
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Now, on MFP, it is axiomatic that 'you cannot build any muscle on a deficit.'
First of all, I would take those results with a heavy pinch of salt
However, you will also find that people mention that there are 2 exeptions:
1) newbies to lifting
2) the significantly overweight
Either one can lead to *some* muscle gains. Combine the two, especially if you are a young guy, you can gain a *reasonable* amount. I don't think anyone on here denies that.0 -
But, the physician did say he checked the results twice.
Did he say which type of time machine he used to double check the first measurement?The Biggest Loser claim is even more extraordinary than just building muscle on a deficit. She lost 95 pounds in 11 weeks. (3500*95) / (11 * 7) = 4318. She had to run a deficit of 4318 calories A DAY on average to achieve that kind of weight loss.
I'll repeat that: they are claiming she built a quarter pound of muscle per day (as an 11-week average) running a deficit of over 4,000 calories a day.
It's worse. Building 19 pounds of muscle costs calories too. Even young men in the prime of their muscle-building years can't do anything like that. If it actually did happen it's still extremely atypical and still ridiculous to suggest to people that anyone can just build muscle on a caloric deficit.0 -
Somebody please share the magic formula with me, because it very clearly is NOT heavy lifting three days a week and eating 1g of protein per pound of LBM or 0.7g per pound of total body weight every day in chicken, salmon, egg whites, walnuts, almonds, milk, and yogurt every day (in addition to oatmeal, orange juice, blueberries, broccoli, onions, lettuce, and V8) with some help from a multivitamin, whey protein and casein supplements and eight hours of sleep a night. Heck, I'd be content to just *maintain* all of my LBM while I lost 90 more pounds of fat. :sad:
Seems like your eating ok but it's not an easy task. I burn probably about 5-7k calories a week in cardio. I should probably add in more weights, looking at gyms atm. I'm only just maintaining lean body mass. Gone from 95kg, with 64kg lean body mass to 86kg with 63kg lean body mass. I know I've gained muscle in my legs from alot of cycling but probably lost it elsewhere.Anyhow...
The Biggest Loser claim is even more extraordinary than just building muscle on a deficit. She lost 95 pounds in 11 weeks. (3500*95) / (11 * 7) = 4318. She had to run a deficit of 4318 calories A DAY on average to achieve that kind of weight loss.
I'll repeat that: they are claiming she built a quarter pound of muscle per day (as an 11-week average) running a deficit of over 4,000 calories a day.
Extreme figures like this seem a little hard to believe but maybe it's possible.
'Extreme figures like this seem a little hard to believe but maybe it's possible.'
WHAT!!! Did you actually just read that (if correctly worked out) this lady was running a deficit of 4000 calories a day, and she is supposed to of built, whilst on that deficit, 0.25 of muscle every single day. Seriously, I like yourself, do not pretend to know the in's and out's of the human body and what makes it grow etc, but those numbers couldn't even add up to anyone, no way, no who. It's laughable that this programme is allowed to go around spouting figures like this when it is blatantly untrue.0 -
WHAT!!! Did you actually just read that (if correctly worked out) this lady was running a deficit of 4000 calories a day, and she is supposed to of built, whilst on that deficit, 0.25 of muscle every single day. Seriously, I like yourself, do not pretend to know the in's and out's of the human body and what makes it grow etc, but those numbers couldn't even add up to anyone, no way, no who. It's laughable that this programme is allowed to go around spouting figures like this when it is blatantly untrue.
Yeah I don't know the limit of the human body well enough. I'm sure with enough exercise (maybe 6 hours) a day you could get that level of calorie deficit. Wether you would survive that level of deficit for a sustained period of time, I have no idea? Talk about major starvation diet though.0 -
If you believe what you see on a reality TV show that encourages rapid and competitive dieting than weight is the least of your issues.0
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Hmmmm. Mighty suspicious about the information in this thread. How would you BUILD muscle in a deficit, exactly? How would that process work?
Very large people might be some sort of exception. But, forget that for a moment, and just think about the process.
Protein intake?0 -
If you believe what you see on a reality TV show that encourages rapid and competitive dieting than weight is the least of your issues.
^^^THIS :laugh:
I call BS0 -
Posts by members, moderators and admins should not be considered medical advice and no guarantee is made against accuracy0
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Hmmmm. Mighty suspicious about the information in this thread. How would you BUILD muscle in a deficit, exactly? How would that process work?
Very large people might be some sort of exception. But, forget that for a moment, and just think about the process.
Protein intake?
If you are on a deficit, your body uses protein for things other than to build muscle. The more essential functions - your body does not prioritize muscle building.0 -
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Not sure how it works, but I have experienced increased muscle weight, reduced body fat, and reduced overall weight during my 44 pound loss. The reason is simply increased activity over the same period combined with a sensible 500 calorie a day deficit on food intake. Tanita body fat scales rock!0
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Glycogen replenishing when fully depleted measures as muscle mass. Who knows maybe this contestant binged , they do that sometimes. To gain 19lbs of actual muscle fiber in 11 weeks on a 4000 calorie deficit is a fairy tale.0
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Not sure how it works, but I have experienced increased muscle weight, reduced body fat, and reduced overall weight during my 44 pound loss. The reason is simply increased activity over the same period combined with a sensible 500 calorie a day deficit on food intake. Tanita body fat scales rock!
I wouldn't take results from a body fat scale to the bank. They are a helpful measure of progress but notoriously inaccurate for precise BF calulations.0 -
Not sure how it works, but I have experienced increased muscle weight, reduced body fat, and reduced overall weight during my 44 pound loss. The reason is simply increased activity over the same period combined with a sensible 500 calorie a day deficit on food intake. Tanita body fat scales rock!
I wouldn't take results from a body fat scale to the bank. They are a helpful measure of progress but notoriously inaccurate for precise BF calulations.
Strangely enough that's not been my experience. Having had the opportunity of tank testing the difference between the 2 results was around 1% ... maybe I'm just lucky.
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There are 3 types of individuals that can do this short term: very overweight/obese people on a good resistance training program, athletes returning to lifting after a long layoff, newbies who have NEVER lifted before.
And even then the gains aren't very substantial.
A person needing to lose say 30lbs-40lbs isn't going to build muscle of any significance on a calorie deficit. To build muscle means to ADD MASS. To add mass you need to have a calorie surplus. You DON'T lose weight on a calorie surplus. People can recomp, but in almost all cases I've seen, weight maintenance or a 1lbs-2lbs loss has usually been the best results.
If people are saying they are seeing muscle they've never seen before and are much stronger, then chaulk it up to lower bodyfat and neuromuscular adaptation.
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
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^^ Bingo
People can recomp, but in almost all cases I've seen, weight maintenance or a 1lbs-2lbs loss has usually been the best results. --- THIS.
Niner--- how long of a layoff for athletes constitutes "long"?0 -
Glycogen replenishing when fully depleted measures as muscle mass. Who knows maybe this contestant binged , they do that sometimes. To gain 19lbs of actual muscle fiber in 11 weeks on a 4000 calorie deficit is a fairy tale.
I'd even say it's a fairy tale in a surplus with very few exceptions.0 -
Yes protein builds muscle, but if calorie deficit is high with long exercise bouts, even protein is used as an energy source. Not all of the protein is going to building muscle. And if anyone doesn't think you lose lean muscle along with fat on a weight loss program, then it's time to bring out the human physiology book.Hmmmm. Mighty suspicious about the information in this thread. How would you BUILD muscle in a deficit, exactly? How would that process work?
Very large people might be some sort of exception. But, forget that for a moment, and just think about the process.
Protein intake?
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Are you sure you're not speaking of percentages? That's different than actual mass gain.Not sure how it works, but I have experienced increased muscle weight, reduced body fat, and reduced overall weight during my 44 pound loss. The reason is simply increased activity over the same period combined with a sensible 500 calorie a day deficit on food intake. Tanita body fat scales rock!
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
It will differ from athlete to athlete, but once they notice atrophy and/or performance distinctly, then that would be a good indicator.Niner--- how long of a layoff for athletes constitutes "long"?
Personally myself, if I take off 6 months (which I've done before) I've definitely noticed and it usually took about a month to get back into the swing of it albeit it's way faster rather than starting from scratch.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
:bigsmile:From what I understand, you can build muscle if you're new to lifting which I'm pretty sure the people on Biggest Loser are.
Muscle it is built with water and fat inside of it, people on the biggest loser lack muscle and have a lot of fat. Since they didn't workout they're seeing a spike in muscle which we call "newbie gains" with the fat they currently have, they have nothing but fuel to stimulate muscle growth while at the same time having nothing but fat to burn off too. I will say it's near impossible if you're at a smaller %bf and in a deficit.
From what I have read, this ^^^^ For the morbidly obese, they can add muscle because they are so large. I am still a bit skeptical of the claims made on BL - though I must say that Danni is looking fabulous!! For those with a lower BF%, it is extremely rare to add lean muscle mass while on a calorie deficit. This doesn't mean you can't get stronger and have better definition while on a deficit - you're simply training what you already have and making it more efficient.. Lastly, it is my understanding that a calorie surplus of as little as 100 calories per day over TDEE is sufficient for the average person to be able to add new lean muscle mass. Since I'm still trying to get to GW, I will worry more about that when I get there :bigsmile:0 -
Yeah, 19lbs of muscle don't come easy. Heck even a male in their prime busting their *kitten* for a year would be fortunate to put that on drug free. And this is a female doing it in a few weeks? The numbers don't add up.Glycogen replenishing when fully depleted measures as muscle mass. Who knows maybe this contestant binged , they do that sometimes. To gain 19lbs of actual muscle fiber in 11 weeks on a 4000 calorie deficit is a fairy tale.
I'd even say it's a fairy tale in a surplus with very few exceptions.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Niner--- how long of a layoff for athletes constitutes "long"?
I'd like to know, too. I was off 11mos. For shame I know but I was a lazy pregnant lady and lazy post partum
ETA: Sorry! Saw above reply! Good to know, thanks!0 -
BTW - Ninerbuff - Thanks for the excellent info. I always find your posts to be helpful!0
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19lbs of muscle in 11 weeks and female? Holy hell what's the secret? I've worked out for years and never developed that much. I should start to believe everything I see on tv I guess.0
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A pound of muscle is equal to 600 calories. So that would be 700 calories in a week. Based on that if conditions were perfect (progressive training, rest, macro intake, etc.) and NONE of that is used for energy or fat storage (unlikely) then 52lbs of muscle should be added in a year. But we all know that's not how it works. So let's say half of that is correct. That would still be 26lbs in a year. For a male maybe, but that's being PERFECT for the whole year.From what I have read, this ^^^^ For the morbidly obese, they can add muscle because they are so large. I am still a bit skeptical of the claims made on BL - though I must say that Danni is looking fabulous!! For those with a lower BF%, it is extremely rare to add lean muscle mass while on a calorie deficit. This doesn't mean you can't get stronger and have better definition while on a deficit - you're simply training what you already have and making it more efficient.. Lastly, it is my understanding that a calorie surplus of as little as 100 calories per day over TDEE is sufficient for the average person to be able to add new lean muscle mass. Since I'm still trying to get to GW, I will worry more about that when I get there :bigsmile:
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I dont know what method this doctor used for his measurements but if it measured LEAN BODY MASS that is a very different thing than MUSCLE.0
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Mu muscle mass has increased substantially on a deficit of 500 cals. I've never had arm and leg muscles like this before!
I think the main thing is eating the right food to build muscle as well as not having too much of a deficit.0 -
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Mu muscle mass has increased substantially on a deficit of 500 cals. I've never had arm and leg muscles like this before!
I think the main thing is eating the right food to build muscle as well as not having too much of a deficit.
How do you know you gained muscle? How do you know it's not just the look of having muscle bc you shredded the fat covering the muscle you already have? Valid questions to ask yourself.0
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