Cant gain muscle while at a deficit?

BflSaberfan

I'm so confused about this, if you cannot gain muscle at a deficit how come when the scale doesn't move we are told to take measurements instead?

I haven't lost anything in almost 2 weeks but I am losing inches, especially in my stomach. How is this possible to be smaller without losing anything on the scale, if you cant gain muscle while at a deficit

I am lifting 3 days a week and doing insanity 3 days a week. Eating between 1500-1700 calories.

dad106

When you first start lifting, you have newbie gains... but those level off after a bit.

After that, it's just water retention from your muscles repairing themselves, or you are not logging right and are actually gaining/maintaing.

BflSaberfan

When you first start lifting, you have newbie gains... but those level off after a bit.

After that, it's just water retention from your muscles repairing themselves, or you are not logging right and are actually gaining/maintaing.

But how do you lose inches without the scale going down?

enigmaneo

Same thing has been happening to me for 3 months now. I keep hearing people say you can't gain muscle and with a deficit. Well something is happening.

dad106

When you first start lifting, you have newbie gains... but those level off after a bit.

After that, it's just water retention from your muscles repairing themselves, or you are not logging right and are actually gaining/maintaing.

But how do you lose inches without the scale going down?

Weight loss and fat loss are not linear.

Weight loss(IE scale loss) is a combination of muscle/fat/water being lost.

Inches lost is fat being lost and does not always correlate with a scale loss.

You can lose weight, but stay the same size or even bigger, because you didn't lose any fat and just lost muscle.

enigmaneo

I think that's what the OP's question was. How does fat/inches get lost but no scale change unless there is an increase in something.

BflSaberfan

When you first start lifting, you have newbie gains... but those level off after a bit.

After that, it's just water retention from your muscles repairing themselves, or you are not logging right and are actually gaining/maintaing.

But how do you lose inches without the scale going down?

Weight loss and fat loss are not linear.

Weight loss(IE scale loss) is a combination of muscle/fat/water being lost.

Inches lost is fat being lost and does not always correlate with a scale loss.

You can lose weight, but stay the same size or even bigger, because you didn't lose any fat and just lost muscle.

But if I'm losing inches and no scale loss, where is the fat going and how can I gain muscle on a deficit? Sorry I'm not understanding.

BflSaberfan

I think that's what the OP's question was. How does fat/inches get lost but no scale change unless there is an increase in something.

yes, thank you. i've always been told you wont gain muscle if you are eating at a deficit, so I don't understand whats happening or how.

dad106

Lets try this again..

The fat cells on your body, are depleting their stores of fat and shrinking... which means that the inches are gone, you look smaller/tighter, etc.

To gain muscle(esp for a female) you need to be eating at a surplus of calories, and lifting heavy. You can't build muscle(IE new muscle tissue) if there is no extra calories to help stimulate that growth. If your eating 1700 calories, burn off 500, your body only has 1200 calories left to make your brain/heart function, help with digestion, repair muscles etc. You can't expect it to use those calories for muscle building, when basic bodily functions are not being supported.

As I stated earlier, the reason why the scale doesn't go down is due to a number of reasons. Water retention, miscounting of calories which leans to fat gain, etc.

It's really not as complicated as you are trying to make it... I swear.

ETA: Also like I stated earlier, weight loss and fat loss are two different processes. One can happen without the other because they are not related. Just like you can gain strength, but not build new muscle tissue. Correlation does not equal causation.

cappri

I have a year of weight loss and increased muscles that disagree with having to eat at a deficit to gain muscles. Perhaps it is a difference in the definition of muscles?

enigmaneo

I did it as well a few years back.

ncl1313

I'm not a nutrition/fitness expert, but my sister in law is so I asked her. She said that this is sort of true but sort of not. Basically, if you are starting from an out of shape place (like I have), reducing calories alone will make you lose fat. If you add exercise, especially a weight training aspect, you will start building on the muscles you already have that have been undertasked. Your muscles will be sore and are busy repairing themselves after workouts which is why you retain more water and shouldn't have your weigh-in day be the day after your weight training days. So, technically you are building this muscle because it needs to repair. Basically, if the foundation of your house starts cracking, you need to patch and fill holes to repair it, which is essentially adding to your foundation without adding on to your house. It made better sense when she said it, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say. She did say that if you get to a plateau, you should eat at maintenance for that weight for up to 2 weeks so you can build additional muscle during that time so when you go back to a deficit, you'll have more muscle to burn more calories. Oh, and she said to eat lots and lots of protein.

mmapags

I have a year of weight loss and increased muscles that disagree with having to eat at a deficit to gain muscles. Perhaps it is a difference in the definition of muscles?

The difference is not in the definition if muscles. It's in the definition of gains or increase in muscles. If you been in a deficit, you didn't gain new muscle tissue as defined by hypertrophy. (with the exception of newbie gains) You developed and enlarged the muscles you already had that were underdeveloped or atrophied.

Gaining muscle through hypertrophy is an anabolic function. It requires excess building blocks (calories). Losing weight is a catabolic function. Meaning you take energy from your bodies reserved because there is a calorie deficit. An anabolic process cannot happen in a catabolic state except in unusual circumstance.

The circimstances are; short term newbie gains of a pound or 2 in one who has never trained before. Gains if training is started by an obese idividual with an excess of fat reserves, again a few pounds at best. Gains of a pound or 2 in a previously trained athlete coming back from a layoff.

Bottom line is: does it really matter? If you are stronger, healthier and look better, does it matter if you "gained" or "increased" muscle or not? Not really.

PS: To validate claims of increasing muscle you (meaning anyone) would have to had some form of before and after testing like dexa scans to determined lean mass at the start and increased lean mass at some later point.

agggie550

Heres a really good article about muscle gain...

http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/how-much-muscle-can-you-gain/

odddrums

I think that's what the OP's question was. How does fat/inches get lost but no scale change unless there is an increase in something.

yes, thank you. i've always been told you wont gain muscle if you are eating at a deficit, so I don't understand whats happening or how.

Your body needs extra calories if you want to gain muscle. If you don't have the extra muscle your body will first use your fat and burn that off, then when your fat gets too low it will start burning the muscle.

You are probably burning the fat off and gaining some but not a lot of muscle, meaning you will lose inches [fat] but not really lose weight. If you're drinking a lot of water this can keep your weight up as well. I'd say just keep doing what you are doing and don't be afraid to eat. Weight doesn't matter as much as inches.

FitandFab33

I'm not a newbie.. I've lost two inches off my waist in the last two weeks and haven't lost a single ounce. I'm eating at a deficit (some might say a severe deficit) and I lift.. a LOT.

At 25+% BF I have stored energy to use.. and while it is not OPTIMAL to muscle growth, you can develop muscle while at a deficit.

IronPlayground

Lean Body Mass consists of anything that's not fat. You will have increased bone density while strength training. Also, water fills muscles to repair them. So, you can lose inches (fat) while having increase in water weight and increase bone density. These are good things.

liftingbro

I've been losing weight slowly for about a year.

My BF% went from 45% at 250 pounds, to 27% at 202.

I went from 137.5 pounds of lean mass to 147.5 pounds of lean mass while losing 48 pounds overall. That means lost 48 pounds of fat and gained 10 pounds of lean mass (bone density/muscle..ect).

Granted, it's much more common for males to have gains than females but it is certainly possible. I really doubt anyone gains more than 1-2 pounds of lean mass in a month and it is closer to 0.5-1 pound for most people and proabably half of that for females.

As for scale weight not going down:

#1- You could simply be eating too much. Be sure you track everything and weighing and measuring everything.

#2- Water weight. Increased sodium intake, being new to lifting weights, and other bodily functions (females particularly) can cause large fluctuations in water weight. Also, glycogen stores can affect water levels. So if you go out and workout with high intensity the next morning you probably will be lighter if you didn't eat a bunch of carbs that evening. On the other side if you normally eat lower carb and generally weigh in the morning after following a workout day but decided to carb load the night before you'll probably bloat out.

#3- Gain in muscle is almost never the cause of gaining weight or maintaining weight. SImply put, you don't gain muscle at a fast enough rate to counteract all weight loss.

#4- It may be gross, but it is true but people's bowl habits tend to change when their diet changes so you might be holding in some extra weight. Surprisingly this can add up to a pound or two over a month's time. Just make sure you're getting enough fiber.

#5- Your weigh in procedure matters as well. Try to weigh in on the same day, every week, in the morning after going pee. Best to do it in the nude. This way you take out as many of the variables as possible.

cappri

I have a year of weight loss and increased muscles that disagree with having to eat at a deficit to gain muscles. Perhaps it is a difference in the definition of muscles?

The difference is not in the definition if muscles. It's in the definition of gains or increase in muscles. If you been in a deficit, you didn't gain new muscle tissue as defined by hypertrophy. (with the exception of newbie gains) You developed and enlarged the muscles you already had that were underdeveloped or atrophied.

Got it, this makes sense, I haven't increased my muscle mass I just developed the muscle that was already in my body. At least I think that is what you are saying? Thanks that helps me understand when people talk about not gaining muscle on a deficit.

3dogsrunning

When you first start lifting, you have newbie gains... but those level off after a bit.

After that, it's just water retention from your muscles repairing themselves, or you are not logging right and are actually gaining/maintaing.

But how do you lose inches without the scale going down?

Weight loss and fat loss are not linear.

Weight loss(IE scale loss) is a combination of muscle/fat/water being lost.

Inches lost is fat being lost and does not always correlate with a scale loss.

You can lose weight, but stay the same size or even bigger, because you didn't lose any fat and just lost muscle.

But if I'm losing inches and no scale loss, where is the fat going and how can I gain muscle on a deficit? Sorry I'm not understanding.

When you first start working out, or increase intensity, your muscles store extra glycogen in anticipation of the next workout. Glycogen requires water to be stored. This usually accounts for a couple of pounds of extra weight that people often complain of when they start lifting weights. It is basically water weight. This can mask small losses in fat, which can account for the phenomenon of losing inches but not scale weight. Of course, eventually the scale loss will catch up and you will see a drop.
I put on a couple of pounds when I first started lifting weights again then remained the same weight for an entire month. I took pictures and measurements and could see a difference but nothing on the scale.

Not to mention there are a number of other factors that affect water weight that could be masking your fat loss. A great post on the topic
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/350212--why-scales-lie?hl=why+scales+lie

neandermagnon

increases in the amount of glycogen your muscles store, and water retention in the muscle repair process, leads to water weight gain (this is good and healthy) - that goes on at the same time as you lose fat... you lose inches but your weight stays the same, as the weight of the fat you lost, is offset by the weight of the water you gained.

This goes on for a while, but if you carry on the way you are, the water weight gains stop and you carry on losing fat, and your scale weight goes down.

Additionally, as someone said above (the poster who asked her sister) - if you go from sedentary to active, your muscles may actually grow a little (because they were a little wasted before due to being sedentary), and your bones also will be getting denser. Everyone forgets about bone density, but if you go from sedentary to doing weight bearing exercises, providing you're eating well enough to feed your body (i.e. a sensible deficit, plus in this case enough calcium) your bones get denser. Denser = heavier for its volume, i.e. your bones stay the same size but get heavier.

In order to gain muscle mass, i.e. grow new muscle fibres, you need to be eating at a calorie surplus, and eating plenty of protein, otherwise your body does not have the energy or protein to grow the new fibres.

There are occasional exceptions to this.... i.e. newbie gains (when someone goes from sedentary to working out a lot), and muscle memory - this is where someone had more muscle before, but lost it, e.g. due to being sedentary or due to loss of lean mass from crash dieting - in these cases you may see some gain in actual muscle mass in spite of eating at a deficit... these things are short lived though, i.e. the gains will stop after a while.

3dogsrunning

I have a year of weight loss and increased muscles that disagree with having to eat at a deficit to gain muscles. Perhaps it is a difference in the definition of muscles?

The difference is not in the definition if muscles. It's in the definition of gains or increase in muscles. If you been in a deficit, you didn't gain new muscle tissue as defined by hypertrophy. (with the exception of newbie gains) You developed and enlarged the muscles you already had that were underdeveloped or atrophied.

Got it, this makes sense, I haven't increased my muscle mass I just developed the muscle that was already in my body. At least I think that is what you are saying? Thanks that helps me understand when people talk about not gaining muscle on a deficit.

And you've lost some of the fat over the top of the muscles, so they are easier to see, i.e. defined.


ETA - great explanation by neadermagnon.

liftingbro

Also forgot to mention that as you become "trained" (meaning you've been lifting for long enough to build up some endurance) you increase the amount of glycogen you are capable of storing and with that comes more potential water weight. After a month or so you should level off and it shouldn't be as much of an issue. Trained muscle stores more glycogen and this is also the reason people see quick strength/endurance gaines when they first start out. Glycogen is the energy source for muscle during exercise so the more you are able to store the more weight and more reps you will be able to do.

BflSaberfan

increases in the amount of glycogen your muscles store, and water retention in the muscle repair process, leads to water weight gain (this is good and healthy) - that goes on at the same time as you lose fat... you lose inches but your weight stays the same, as the weight of the fat you lost, is offset by the weight of the water you gained.

This goes on for a while, but if you carry on the way you are, the water weight gains stop and you carry on losing fat, and your scale weight goes down.

Additionally, as someone said above (the poster who asked her sister) - if you go from sedentary to active, your muscles may actually grow a little (because they were a little wasted before due to being sedentary), and your bones also will be getting denser. Everyone forgets about bone density, but if you go from sedentary to doing weight bearing exercises, providing you're eating well enough to feed your body (i.e. a sensible deficit, plus in this case enough calcium) your bones get denser. Denser = heavier for its volume, i.e. your bones stay the same size but get heavier.

In order to gain muscle mass, i.e. grow new muscle fibres, you need to be eating at a calorie surplus, and eating plenty of protein, otherwise your body does not have the energy or protein to grow the new fibres.

There are occasional exceptions to this.... i.e. newbie gains (when someone goes from sedentary to working out a lot), and muscle memory - this is where someone had more muscle before, but lost it, e.g. due to being sedentary or due to loss of lean mass from crash dieting - in these cases you may see some gain in actual muscle mass in spite of eating at a deficit... these things are short lived though, i.e. the gains will stop after a while.

Interesting you mention this, I was going to ask about muscle memory. I was working out 5 days a week about a year ago (doing insanity and the gym like I am now) I got lazy for a year, but within a month of starting back up again I am seeing those muscles pop back out again in a shorter time than it took me to see them when I started over two years ago. I didn't think "muscle memory" existed but I felt like I had jump started my body again once I started working out again, I felt it and saw it - I also did not feel like I was "starting over" but picking up where I left off. I am sure I lost some LBM over the course of the year but perhaps not much.....very interesting.


To a previous poster, I dont think I'm miscalculating my calories or over eating because I am smaller and have lost inches so I know its "working" just not on the scale.

monty619

because more contributes to weight besides muscle and fat... such as glycogen (water weight), food volume intake, and even bone density..

for beginners, or the obese you can gain skeletal muscle while in a deficit but for most people who have been training its near impossible.. you can get STRONGER because that is an adaptation of the nervous system but as for actual muscle tissue its not gonna happen.

cappri

To a previous poster, I dont think I'm miscalculating my calories or over eating because I am smaller and have lost inches so I know its "working" just not on the scale.

Pretty much the whole month of February and really most of January, I didn't lose any weight, but I did lose 2 inches off my waist and 1.25 off my hips. Perhaps I wasn't increasing my ab muscles, but I was certainly developing and uncovering them. In March I began consciously increasing my protein intake, I didn't change my calorie goal, and the scale has started moving downward once again.

liftingbro

because more contributes to weight besides muscle and fat... such as glycogen (water weight), food volume intake, and even bone density..

for beginners, or the obese you can gain skeletal muscle while in a deficit but for most people who have been training its near impossible.. you can get STRONGER because that is an adaptation of the nervous system but as for actual muscle tissue its not gonna happen.

Yes, don;'t confuse strength gains with gains in muscle mass. When you first start lifting you are not very efficient at recruiting fast twitch muscl fibers (those most respnsible for strength). As you train you become much more efficient at recruiting fat twitch fibers. So basically, without gaining any muscle mass, you simply become stronger because you are able to use more of the fast twitch fibers that you already had.

mamasmaltz3

Great article that was posted in the forums that finally made the light bulb go off for me. Thanks for posting it SideSteel.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

BflSaberfan

Great article that was posted in the forums that finally made the light bulb go off for me. Thanks for posting it SideSteel.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

That article was awesome! Thank you so much!

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jennifeffer

I've been watching the Biggest Loser this season and one of the girls, Danni, had lost 95 pounds by last week but she had gained 19 pounds of muscle. They said they had never seen this before on the show and the Dr. checked the results three times. I'm no expert in this field either but I believe you can build muscle while losing fat. I see it in my own body, but I really don't have a way to quantify it on myself..........:)