Need to change my view of being a Man
Replies
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For the OP: just eat meat. Losing all that weight and increasing your activity levels are what's going to have a big impact on your health.
Cutting out meat won't. And you won't stick with the new lifestyle if you're denying yourself stuff you want.
This^^^^^^^^ sooooo this^^^^^^^^^^0 -
This is a tough problem, because you already understand logically that manliness has nothing to do with diet. It's not a matter of reasoning. You're worried that your friends will make fun of you , or think less of you, for making healthy choices.
Well, that sounds to me like the issue has less to do with 'manliness', and more to do with having friends who are kind of insecure jerks. And frankly, if the assumption in your group is that 'manliness' requires making fun of people because of what they do or don't eat, then you are all kind of relating 'manliness' with 'jerkiness', which seems to me like a bigger problem than whether 'manliness' == 'eats lots of meat'. If you can get rid of that way of thinking, the diet thing won't even be an issue (at least for that reason).
Sorry if that feels like I'm attacking you or your friends, but really -- making fun of people for dietary choices is a petty, mean thing to do, and reeks of insecurity. I hope you can grow past it and maybe help your friends to do so as well.0 -
I agree. I mean look at Mardi Gras and pride festivals. You don't see any unfit gay guys. So all gay guys are fit and all fit guys are gay. That's the assumption I always make anyway.
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Unfortunately, you're not 100% right about this statement. Yes, you can be healthy while eating meats, even fattier meats if you eat them occasionally. The problem is not in eating meat in itself, it's in eating the meat North America provides us. The cattle, pork, and chickens are, in most cases, pumped full of hormones to grow larger, produce more milk and meat. They are fed grains and other stuff that is not part of their natural diets etc. This ALL leads to us eating exactly what they eat and it's HORRIBLE for our bodies, especially the hormone crap they give the poor animals. I could go on for a while.
I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong OP, but you're looking to get away from meat because it's hard and expensive to find healthy meat nowadays. You can get free-range chicken, but they yield less meat and are more expensive and are sometimes only available at specialty super markets. Hormone-free beef is pretty much impossible to get!
BUT, going back to the question at hand: I was born in South America where BBQs are a weekly, family thing and beef is the staple. A meal isn't complete without some form of delicious dead animal. I still eat meat, just a lot less of it and I try going for the hormone-free stuff. All I can say is suck it up that your friends will make fun of you, be a man and do what you think is best for YOU, not for your friends (who cares what they say anyway?). In this case it seems that you're looking to opt for more veggies and less meat. Good!
Please, leave unsupported religious arguments out of this.
haha did you even read this? No mention of religion. Just mention of the fact that meat supplies are not the healthiest...
The day you can actually use some evidence to establish that mainstream meat products are unhealthy as a result of some specific chemical they contain thanks to "hormones" or "antibiotics" or whatever is the day your argument will stop being a religious one. Until then, it is.0 -
Just wondering, why exactly are you considering a vegetarian diet? You can be perfectly healthy by still consuming meat (just look for lean meats).
I just figure that even if you were to make the switch, if you truely feel this way about the lifestyle change, it may not stick.
This. Don't make the switch to try to become healthier. You can be an incredibly unhealthy vegetarian. You can be a very healthy meat eater. Following a vegetarian diet doesn't equal health.0 -
Just wondering, why exactly are you considering a vegetarian diet? You can be perfectly healthy by still consuming meat (just look for lean meats).
I just figure that even if you were to make the switch, if you truely feel this way about the lifestyle change, it may not stick.
^^this
(and I have no skin the the game so to speak as I am a vegetarian)0 -
I thought this was a thread on cross-dressing.0
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Unfortunately, you're not 100% right about this statement. Yes, you can be healthy while eating meats, even fattier meats if you eat them occasionally. The problem is not in eating meat in itself, it's in eating the meat North America provides us. The cattle, pork, and chickens are, in most cases, pumped full of hormones to grow larger, produce more milk and meat. They are fed grains and other stuff that is not part of their natural diets etc. This ALL leads to us eating exactly what they eat and it's HORRIBLE for our bodies, especially the hormone crap they give the poor animals. I could go on for a while.
I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong OP, but you're looking to get away from meat because it's hard and expensive to find healthy meat nowadays. You can get free-range chicken, but they yield less meat and are more expensive and are sometimes only available at specialty super markets. Hormone-free beef is pretty much impossible to get!
BUT, going back to the question at hand: I was born in South America where BBQs are a weekly, family thing and beef is the staple. A meal isn't complete without some form of delicious dead animal. I still eat meat, just a lot less of it and I try going for the hormone-free stuff. All I can say is suck it up that your friends will make fun of you, be a man and do what you think is best for YOU, not for your friends (who cares what they say anyway?). In this case it seems that you're looking to opt for more veggies and less meat. Good!
Please, leave unsupported religious arguments out of this.
haha did you even read this? No mention of religion. Just mention of the fact that meat supplies are not the healthiest...
The day you can actually use some evidence to establish that mainstream meat products are unhealthy as a result of some specific chemical they contain thanks to "hormones" or "antibiotics" or whatever is the day your argument will stop being a religious one. Until then, it is.
Ahh i see ok, that's what you mean by religious. And I agree. I have seen documentaries such as "food Inc." and "Earthlings" as well as read internet articles from perceived "trustworthy" sources (newspapers, scientific websites etc.) BUT I have not personally made it my goal to go to the farms and slaughter houses and see if ALL of these sources are lying to me. You're right, they very well be lying to me and we eat perfectly healthy meat!0 -
I just need to say that, in my humble women's opinion, what makes a man a real man is how he treats women, children and animals and not by what he eats!!!!
Who cares how you get your fuel, just get what you need to be healthy and happy!
#winning
i dated two vegetarian men, both great guys, and i wouldn't consider either of them spectacularly healthy because they didn't exercise much (if at all). i love animals (both alive and on my plate). i like lifting weights. i like sweating. i like eating. i do whatever i want as long as it makes ME FEEL GOOD! being healthy is a state of mind as well as body, and you don't need to be vegetarian to feel that way. also, vegetarian/vegan men are just as manly as rib eating men. also, rib eating men could just as easily be "un-manly" (to use your wording).
it's more than what you eat--it's who you are.0 -
I want to be healthy. I'm considering going to a vegetarian diet. (Engine 2 Diet)
One of the problems and maybe a barrier to achieving good health in the past is that I can't identify with men who choose to be healthy.
I can't identify with being a vegetarian guy. The guy I've always been, has been the guy who likes hot dogs and beer. A good guy to share a juicy burger with. I don't look down on healthy guys, I just have a hard time seeing myself as one. I was brought up in area to think that they weren't real men. There is no logic to that, but the feeling exists. I have to change my worldview on what a "man" is. Easier said than done. Maybe this is just me whining, but a few weeks ago we were at a prime rib buffet with another family and my buddy was celebrating each trip to the beef station. I completely identified with that. Celebrating manhood by eating the roast beast. I can't be that guy anymore. I can't identify with the guy who asks the chef to prepare a vegetarian (or God forbid, a vegan meal). My buddies would torment that guy (probably behind his back) - I know its wrong, but that's my view. I have to give up that hold/view of the world
I have a hard time swaying my preferences and feelings. Healthy guys are men, they just aren't what I envision. I need to become one - I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how to reconcile my obviously flawed belief system. Has anyone else had to deal with this
Umm why do you think that only vegetarians are healthy? I think you are a lot more flawed than you think! You are that guy, but just in a different way. You are that guy that thinks he is way manlier than he really is.0 -
I eat very healthy not vegatarian, but I occasionally enjoy nice hamburger or a steak or some nice mexican with spicy beef I just dont eat it every other night like I used to. Maybe limit your nights out to once a month or once a week or whatever best works for you. I really enjoy scallopos steak and shrimp making myself hungry right now thinking about it. Hell I even have a few pieces of meat pizza every now and then but again I used to have it 2-3 times a week and then some.0
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Unfortunately, you're not 100% right about this statement. Yes, you can be healthy while eating meats, even fattier meats if you eat them occasionally. The problem is not in eating meat in itself, it's in eating the meat North America provides us. The cattle, pork, and chickens are, in most cases, pumped full of hormones to grow larger, produce more milk and meat. They are fed grains and other stuff that is not part of their natural diets etc. This ALL leads to us eating exactly what they eat and it's HORRIBLE for our bodies, especially the hormone crap they give the poor animals. I could go on for a while.
I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong OP, but you're looking to get away from meat because it's hard and expensive to find healthy meat nowadays. You can get free-range chicken, but they yield less meat and are more expensive and are sometimes only available at specialty super markets. Hormone-free beef is pretty much impossible to get!
BUT, going back to the question at hand: I was born in South America where BBQs are a weekly, family thing and beef is the staple. A meal isn't complete without some form of delicious dead animal. I still eat meat, just a lot less of it and I try going for the hormone-free stuff. All I can say is suck it up that your friends will make fun of you, be a man and do what you think is best for YOU, not for your friends (who cares what they say anyway?). In this case it seems that you're looking to opt for more veggies and less meat. Good!
Please, leave unsupported religious arguments out of this.
haha did you even read this? No mention of religion. Just mention of the fact that meat supplies are not the healthiest...
The day you can actually use some evidence to establish that mainstream meat products are unhealthy as a result of some specific chemical they contain thanks to "hormones" or "antibiotics" or whatever is the day your argument will stop being a religious one. Until then, it is.
There is some interesting literature on this topic. You may wish to read The Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael Pollan as a start. I am not saying it will necessarily change your mind, but if you haven't read it yet and are interested in where you food comes from/what you are putting in your body, it is quite educational.0 -
Don't know that you need to change the view of being a man so much as what it means for you to be healthy vs. what you think it means for you to be healthy.
So many people think they need to cut out everything they ever loved to eat and workout like a mad-man to lose weight. WRONG! A physiologist told me that people think they can "work off" the extra calories not realizing how much effort it really takes to work off 500 calories - most workouts don't burn that much unless you're doing something like P90X or Insanity.
I don't know anything about being a vegetarian other than it not be something I would fail miserably at. I love meat too much. I really can't help you with whether or not to go that direction. Going to see a nutritionist would probably be a really good idea. That can probably help you decide if it's the thing for you to do.
It really boils down to the choices you make. A nutritionist told me that if you stick with lean/healthy proteins, the fat/carbs will take care of themselves, and I've found that to be pretty close to true.
Meanwhile, take it one step at a time, one breath at a time, and log everything! I've lost my weight without working out much at all - and taking small steps to get there. If I can do it anybody can. And I did it without changing "who I am."
You can do this.0 -
i know lots of very healthy men who are MEN....
we're talking hot, sex, MFKN men....who still love a beer, occasional cigar and burger....
they just fit it in to their macros.
jus sayin
Drink's beer, eats steak, fitting a big 'ole stogie in my macro's guy here.
I managed to drop 100lbs without completely cutting that stuff out.
I'm sure as heck healthier than a lot of people my age.0 -
I don't understand, after reading your post, why you are thinking of becoming vegetarian?
You can be healthy by eating meat/fish/seafood.
This right here. Oreos are vegan, ya know0 -
Unfortunately, you're not 100% right about this statement. Yes, you can be healthy while eating meats, even fattier meats if you eat them occasionally. The problem is not in eating meat in itself, it's in eating the meat North America provides us. The cattle, pork, and chickens are, in most cases, pumped full of hormones to grow larger, produce more milk and meat. They are fed grains and other stuff that is not part of their natural diets etc. This ALL leads to us eating exactly what they eat and it's HORRIBLE for our bodies, especially the hormone crap they give the poor animals. I could go on for a while.
I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong OP, but you're looking to get away from meat because it's hard and expensive to find healthy meat nowadays. You can get free-range chicken, but they yield less meat and are more expensive and are sometimes only available at specialty super markets. Hormone-free beef is pretty much impossible to get!
BUT, going back to the question at hand: I was born in South America where BBQs are a weekly, family thing and beef is the staple. A meal isn't complete without some form of delicious dead animal. I still eat meat, just a lot less of it and I try going for the hormone-free stuff. All I can say is suck it up that your friends will make fun of you, be a man and do what you think is best for YOU, not for your friends (who cares what they say anyway?). In this case it seems that you're looking to opt for more veggies and less meat. Good!
Please, leave unsupported religious arguments out of this.
haha did you even read this? No mention of religion. Just mention of the fact that meat supplies are not the healthiest...
The day you can actually use some evidence to establish that mainstream meat products are unhealthy as a result of some specific chemical they contain thanks to "hormones" or "antibiotics" or whatever is the day your argument will stop being a religious one. Until then, it is.
There is some interesting literature on this topic. You may wish to read The Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael Pollan as a start. I am not saying it will necessarily change your mind, but if you haven't read it yet and are interested in where you food comes from/what you are putting in your body, it is quite educational.
Research, not popular books.0 -
For the OP: I agree with many of the folks here who say eating a vegetarian diet won't necessarily make you healthier. And certainly depriving yourself of something you really enjoy and can be part of a healthy diet is not likely to be sustainable long-term. Whatever lifestyle changes you make, you're best doing something that is sustainable.
Eating or not eating meat does not make you a man! A man forms his own convictions on the best what to live his life, then follows them. He doesn't change his behavior to oppose what he feels is right because he will be better accepted by others. If you are convinced that a dietary change is the right thing for you to do, be a man, and make the change. If your friends don't support that change, you are ever more the man for acting according to your beliefs (and chances are, in private most of them feel a healthier diet would be better as well). A man also supports his family and friends in their attempts to act according to their convictions. So it would seem your friends may not be so manly after all.
Meanwhile:
The day you can actually use some evidence to establish that mainstream meat products are unhealthy as a result of some specific chemical they contain thanks to "hormones" or "antibiotics" or whatever is the day your argument will stop being a religious one. Until then, it is.
That's a straw man argument.
The issue there becomes what do you accept as valid evidence. If you accept longitudinal studies comparing diets without vs. with them from Europe, then evidence of naturally raised meats being healthier abounds. If you accept data from the CDC showing that the major driver of the development of antibiotic resistant bacteria is actually the continual use of antibiotics in industrial agriculture, then there's lots available. If you accept nutritional data from the USDA in the 50's compared with nutritional data from the USDA since the advent of pervasive use of hormones and antibiotics in food, then much evidence is available. If you accept double-blind studies conducted by major research institutions on the health impacts of "conventionally raised" vs. grass fed/pastured/organic meat and veggies, ample evidence exists. And, of course, most of the studies about contamination with various bacterial, fecal matter, and whatnot, do show correlation with conventional food (though i would say not causation, as there is more correlation, and more probably a causal connection, with scale, but most of the things they use in conventional meat production is the result of impractical scaling anyway, which breaks down in a natural production model).
If you only accept conclusions from the USDA, which is run mostly by people who once worked for (or still do, in several cases) the companies that manufacture the chemicals, antibiotics, and hormones, based on studies conducted by the companies that provide the chemicals, antibiotics, and hormones, then you'll never find any.
I could as easily say that you won't find any evidence that says mainstream meat products are safe, using the same type of filters on what I accept as valid evidence. Both sides can bounce back and forth claiming the other has no data to back up its claims, and thus it's a religious argument.
Best bet is to do an n=1 study. Spend a year eating naturally grown produce and naturally raised meats. Get a complete physical and fasting blood tests before you start, then after the year. Then go back to eating conventional produce and meats for a year. Get another physical and blood test. Then go back to all natural for a year and another physical and blood tests.
I actually did this. Here are some results:
Body metrics:
Weight: no correlation (it varied both ways in both diets)
BF%: no correlation
BP: Systolic much lower with natural, diastolic slightly lower with natural
Complete blood count:
WBC: slightly better with natural diet,, but statistically insignificant
RBC: no correlation
Hemoglobin: no correlation
Hematocrit: normal with natural, high with conventional
MCV: no correlation
MCH: no correlation
MCHC: no correlation
RDW: no change at all
Platelet count: moderately better with natural diet, but always low
Lipids:
Total Cholesterol: tracks closer to weight than either type of diet
HDL Cholesterol: much higher (~35%) with natural diet
LDL Cholesterol: much lower (~20%) with natural diet
Total/HDL ratio: always good, but much better with natural diet (2.8 vs. 1.1, with only a +/- .1 between the two "rounds")
LDL/HDL ratio: averaged 1.2 with natural diet, 2.4 with conventional
Triglycerides: family history of high. ~138 with natural, ~145 with conventional
Blood Sugars
Glucose: 70 and 73 with natural, 86 and 97 with conventional
Fructosamine: 162 and 168 with natural, 182 and 191 with conventional
Misc:
BUN: 13 and 17 with natural, 15 and 21 with conventional
Creatinine: more correlation with the kind of physical activity I did the day before the test than diet
Total Protein: no correlation
Albumin: 4.6 both years of natural, 3.9 and 4.1 with conventional
Globulin: no correlation
ALB/GLO: no correlation
eGFR: no correlation
Bilirubin: .3, .4 with natural, .5, 1.1 with conventional
Phosphatase: no correlation
GGT: no correlation
AST: no correlation
ALT: no correlation
From this, I can't say for certain whether conventional, mainstream meat consumption is less healthy for you than naturally raised meat or not - that's the nature of an n=1 study. But, I can fairly conclusively say that the consumption of conventional food is considerably less healthy for me than naturally raised/grown food.0 -
Just joking Alex...
You talking about me?i know lots of very healthy men who are MEN....
we're talking hot, sex, MFKN men....who still love a beer, occasional cigar and burger....
they just fit it in to their macros.
jus sayin
no I wasn't....by the pure established fact that I don't know you.
but if the description fits you then obviously you're doing something right.
way to go you!0 -
why not be masculine, "eat like a man", and still be healthy? Just set proper macro ratios and calorie limits and pile on the steak and manly foods. You don't need to be a skinny vegetarian guy to be healthy...if you can even consider that being healthy.
why change your identity and the identity you aspire to when you can instead change your diet and exercise habits within the scope of what you consider "you". Sausage, the occasional beer, and all. Do you think you will really be able to summon the motivation and determination necessary for long term success when you have forced a new identity upon yourself, one which you've said you don't even care for? I know I certainly could not. The only thing that keeps me going is knowing that I am making continual progress towards the exact identity I want for myself.0 -
I just need to say that, in my humble women's opinion, what makes a man a real man is how he treats women, children and animals and not by what he eats!!!!
Who cares how you get your fuel, just get what you need to be healthy and happy!
I agree. I don't think meat = manly any more than I think vegetarian = healthy. We eat a few vegetarian meals in our house, but we aren't vegetarians. We just like veggies.
All sorts of meat can be healthy in moderation. Beef, seafood, pork, poultry, lamb... etc.
Veggies can be manly too. For example, a man who can grill up a pile of veggies kabobs to go with said meat is a keeper.
I consider my many very manly and yet some of his favorite meals are meat-free (including my late grandma's cheese soup recipe, his mom's marinated portabella mushrooms, and a lentil chili that he asked me to make next week). Nothing wrong with a man liking some yummy veggies in my opinion.
I do think confidence is manly, even though woman can have plenty of this as well. If you don't want to be a vegetarian, then don't become one and don't let some stranger sway you into becoming one if you aren't convinced by the logic for it.
You can be manly by being strong mentally and physically. Show that you can and do care for others--including women, children and those less fortunate. A bit of modern, tasteful, chivalry that isn't over the top can be nice too. Have a passion for something in your life. (I don't just mean romantic passion. A guy with a hobby he loves or a cause he is "gung-ho" for is more attractive than a man with no sense of passion for life). Be responsible for yourself, your finances, your health and anyone or anything under your care. Dress like a man and not like a boy. You don't have to be "metro" to be a sharp dressed, generally clean fellow even for casual occasions, but willing to get dirty when need or desire arises. Take reasonable risks, but not reckless ones. Etc.
There are plenty of ways to be manly that have nothing to do with giving up meat.0 -
If you've read Engine2Diet, then you know plenty of manly men eat plant-based diets. Any one who thinks otherwise is ignorant. Prove your friends wrong. Lift like no tomorrow.
This dude eats plants and won the UFC championship:
Plus, just go to veganbodybuilding.com. Strong muscles built on plants. Plants are bad *kitten*. RAWR! :flowerforyou:0 -
the problem is not about eating meat. you have this vision of being a man. *rants about society* being a man isn't determined by how much meat you eat or don't. it isn't about this facade that is socially acceptable. don't fall victim to the stereotypes that make males think they have to do certain things to feel manly. You are still you, whether or not you have a big burger in your hand or vegetarian sandwich. This is about health. If people have problems with your healthy lifestyle choice then they need to re analyze their lives and decisions. Be strong and do this for you. I would personally still stick to eating lean meats. if your goal is to become vegetarian then don't stop cold turkey. ease your way into it so you don't feel too uncomfortable. good luck.
Do what you know is right to do, not what society dictates. i'm not crazy i swear haha
^^^^ Exactly this. Society likes to stuff people into little boxes and at some point most of us find them too small; if we don't do something about it, our personalities get stunted.
OP, if you're not ready to cut a hole in your box and run away yet, you might at least find you can push the sides out some and enlarge your vision of what it is to be the man you are.0 -
If you have a problem being a vegetarian than why do it?
A vegetarian diet can be healthy or unhealthy depending on what you eat.0 -
I became a vegetarian to lower my carbon footprint and because I see eating meat as a non-necessity. I still crave meat sometimes and I don't mind of other people eat it.
It's not the easiest choice I've made. I had to phase it out over time starting by cutting it out a few days a week before cutting it out totally.
A healthy diet is perfectly attainable if you continue to eat meat. As an environmental scientist I like to encourage people to eat less of it for the planet's sake, but cutting it out all together isn't the only way to obtain a healthier diet (plus a lot of vegetarians still eat pretty unhealthy. You have to make sure you balance your proteins because meat gives you complete proteins and plants give you only some of what you need at a time.)0 -
I'm not sure if I make the connection between your gender and what you eat but then I'm a woman. Maybe it is a man thing but I'd don't feel less like a woman because of what I eat, but I do feel like less of a person because of how I look being fat.
My suggestion would be if you're really seriously having difficult with identifying with the 'real man' aspect of your gender and basing what a 'real man' feels like because of what you're eating, then a counselor might be able to help you with overcoming that.
Also, try some of the Overeater's Anonymous men only meetings. I'll bet there are other men who have similar feelings.0 -
Vegetarian guys are hot. Not because of how they look, but because of the fact that they have enough self-discipline and sensiivity to give it up. Super sexy if you ask me. There is nothing "unmanly" about it. I wish I could do it, tried it once an felt horrible, I'm sure I was doing something wrong. Anyway, Good luck!0
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I say try it! See how you feel! Give it 3 months or 6 months and then make a decision from there.
And I know diet is an extremely personal thing that people should do just for themselves...but I always really admire men who make the choice to go veggie. It IS out of the norm which makes it brave in addition to admirable and sort of foxy!0 -
I think what I am taking from this thread is; Be a vegetarian if you want but not because it's healthier. Neither lifestyle will make you more or less manly.
As I said before, I wouldn't suggest that drastic a change because it will be harder to stick to. You are better off making small changes that you can fit into your lifestyle, especially if you have no ethical or digestive problem with eating meat.0
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