It makes me sad...
Replies
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Didn't realize you were talking about VLCD (commonly defined as 40% of TDEE). Also, that ONE study you posted concluded the following:the results indicate that 8 weeks of VLCD treatment may be effective and well tolerated in symptomatic obese patients with T2DM in secondary failure, producing sustained cardiovascular and metabolic improvements after 1 year. VLCD therapy is a treatment option that deserves greater consideration in this difficult-to-treat patient population.
So I'm not really sure what your point was with that.
I assumed you were talking about a low calorie diet not a very low calorie diet (1200 calories vs 800 or less calories)
Believe me, I'm at no risk of becoming anorexic any time soon.
I lost 50 lbs on a 1200 calorie diet five years ago. I maintained that loss for 4 years at a normal caloric level. I gained back a total of 10 lbs of that stress eating through a divorce, move halfway around the country, change in careers during the fifth year. I am now losing from what was my initial goal to my ultimate goal. I have no doubt that I won't have a problem maintaining that loss I spent most of my life fit. I also have not lost any LBM (as measured by DEXA scans).
Again, though, apparently you are talking about a VLCD which is a very different thing. You may not need peer reviewed studies but I don't trust anecdotal evidence because, well, it's anecdotal. Just the way my mind works.
Not sure if you've ever tried to look into any research but here are a few of thousands of studies.
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/35/2/155.short
Very low calorie diet, mostly fat lost minimal protein lost
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/54/1/56.short
VLCD 580 cal no decrease in RMR
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=609705
Diet of 424 calories safe
http://intl.jacn.org/content/18/2/115.short
With Resistance training, LBM and RMR were maintained even on 800 cal/day diets
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/38/1/20.short
With higher calories, lean body mass loss was within expected ranges for any weight loss
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0026049594900051
Lean body mass stays the same even with VLCD with higher protein levels
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/8383636
Minimal lean body mass lost at 800 calories. Standard amount of body fat vs. lean body mass loss with weight loss.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1038/oby.2001.134/full
Long term weight loss success with VLCD
http://link.springer.com/article/10.2165/00007256-200636030-00005
VLCD with increased protein and strength training promotes maintenance of lbm and RMR
I'm not saying that losing on higher calorie diets isn't healthy or possible (because that would just be silly). All I'm saying is that your claims have been proven untrue time and time again. For those people who actually are anorexic or following VLCDs, deficiencies in nutrition are a major concern and can certainly lead to LBM loss and decreases in RMR. An LCD, not so much.
I'm happy with my weight loss and whatever you chose to do or chose to believe I hope it's good for you, as long as you work towards your goal you will eventually succeed. The day someone shows me a study that says that LCDs cause any detriment to health or the day I get a DeXA scan that shows LBM loss, I will certainly bump my calories up. Until then, I'm getting plenty of healthy food, maintaining strength and LBM and should lose the rest of this weight within the next 3 months (including the time reverse dieting to get back up to maintenance calories) and that makes me happy.
Do you think people have done the research you have? Do they understand proper training methods while in such a large deficit? Do they know how to properly execute a diet at such low calories?
Do you think its leading to eating disorders? Do you think its leading to failed diets? Do you think a more moderate recommendation is right for the majority of people?
These aren't rhetorical questions.
My point is that regardless of whether or not you can make an intellectual debate for a 1200 calorie diet, I think its wrong for just about everyone. I think you displaying research in favor of such diets is just like handing a child a loaded gun. You very well may know a vast amount more than me, but, I know enough to say, that done incorrectly, its a very slippery slope.
I began to look over those studies but I need to read more than just the abstracts,so, I really can't comment on them right now.0 -
Some people simply cannot lose weight eating more. Maybe instead of judging them all you should ask them what they've tried.0
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Some people simply cannot lose weight eating more. Maybe instead of judging them all you should ask them what they've tried.
What have you tried?.... please include consistency and duration of diet. Also, age, weight, and current diet.0 -
It makes me sad that there is so little acknowledgement of variables in so many of these kinds of posts. "I did it like this and so you should too, regardless of the fact that your metabolism may be different, your hormones may be different, your lifestyle may be different, your appetites may be different, your body type may be different..."
I'm not advocating for a 1200 calorie diet. I firmly believe in eating as much as you can while still eating healthy and losing weight, if losing weight is what you want to do. I just think it's interesting how many people with no qualifications other than "I know what worked for me and some other people I know" have such strong opinions about the choices that others make on their own journeys to health. It's one reason I don't like to even tell people I'm eating healthy and working on my weight- because everyone thinks they're an expert and is sure they know what I should be doing, and they have no problem telling me all about it even though I never asked.0 -
I can't be bothered to read through all the bs that I have read through thousand of times on posts.. The point is that nothing has to do with diet... that ****ty word should not even be used here and should be forbidden. We are talking lifestyle change people if you want to loose weight and then keep it off.
I've been through a lot of crap in my fifty some odd years on this little planet. It took me about half of that time to realize that I had to change something in my life if I wanted to be healthy. Now I trust no one but myself... Peer reviewed studies that are meet the the criminal doctors who push pills because Big Pharma wants then to conduct studies a certain way - I don't buy any of those damn peer reviewed studies.
Do what feels good and works for you, make sure you are getting the vitamins, minerals and fibre you need in your diet. Do your own research and don't trust anything the FDA tells you... They are in line with Big Pharma. Do your home work.0 -
Some people simply cannot lose weight eating more. Maybe instead of judging them all you should ask them what they've tried.
What have you tried?.... please include consistency and duration of diet. Also, age, weight, and current diet.
weight 167
5'3"
25yrs old.
I now eat 1200-1450 daily and have been losing 1lb per week the past two weeks. Albeit I will agree it's not very healthy for the most part since breakfast is usually a meal bar or shake. Same with lunch or a small lunch around 200-300 calories or a sandwich. Dinner is pretty healthy. Usually something like black beans, wheat tortilla, salad ect...or a tofu stirfry, ocassional veggie black bean burger..quorn (limited quorn), soup + salad or big salad or salad and potato....chili...these are just off the top of my head that I usually get. I have also added snacks like half a grapefruit, plum, an apple, orange or 100 calories of some crappy food here and there like chips. Usually 3 snacks a day 2/3 are fruit or a veg. One or two days a week I eat 1500-1600.
Exercise: 3-4 days a week 30mins to an hour. cardio at gym and strenght a couple of days, a work out video like jillian micheals a couple of days or kickboxing or pilates videos.
Prior when I unable to lose, this was the norm for a about 2 months close to 1800 cals most days:
Ate food at all my meals. Breakfast usually protein smoothie, around 350-400 calories or a quinoa breakfast bowl, if not that then oatmeal and couple slices of light wheat toast. More often than not it was a smoothie. Lunch was usually something like a burrito with beans, pico, avocado with lettuce, one or two of those, small tortillas. Dinner was a tofu stirfry albeit heavy on sauce (which probably added cals) or baked tofu fries. Or it would be a black bean mexican bowl which was probably too big which included black beans, corn, pic, avocado and tofu. snack was usually an apple and only one snack a day.
I did exercise 5 days a week 3 strenght exclusively with 10min cardio warm up and cool down. 2 days were just cardio 30-50mins ate 80%mhr. 1 of the strenght days I also did 20mins of cardio
And before that I ate the same but I ate out more with contributed to gaining most likely pushing me to 2200+ a couple of days a week. I also worked out maybe twice a week at best.
During this time I was also on medication with a side effect of increased appetite for sweets so I did eat those like 3-4days a week and another side effect was noted weight gain. I gained 15lbs then withing 2 months nov and dec.0 -
When I first joined MFP in January, I plugged in my numbers and the calculator gave me 1200 calories per day. I was STARVING!! I asked my friends how many calories they ate, and they said 1200 was way too low. I adjusted to 1700 and that has worked a lot better for me (I also get -600 calories a day for tandem nursing and I eat back most of my exercise calories too).0
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If all you got out of the OP was that you think he was judging people, you've really missed the point.Some people simply cannot lose weight eating more. Maybe instead of judging them all you should ask them what they've tried.0 -
When I was in the 4th grade I got called fat and only ate 400 cals a day. Two plain chicken burger patties. everyday. it was horrible.
Didn't lose any weight and I'm pretty sure it stunted my growth cause since then I've been 5'2!
I'm the same weight now (Senior in High School), and definitely not fat.. My maintenance is 2200~ cals.
I like food.0 -
Didn't realize you were talking about VLCD (commonly defined as 40% of TDEE). Also, that ONE study you posted concluded the following:the results indicate that 8 weeks of VLCD treatment may be effective and well tolerated in symptomatic obese patients with T2DM in secondary failure, producing sustained cardiovascular and metabolic improvements after 1 year. VLCD therapy is a treatment option that deserves greater consideration in this difficult-to-treat patient population.
So I'm not really sure what your point was with that.
I assumed you were talking about a low calorie diet not a very low calorie diet (1200 calories vs 800 or less calories)
Believe me, I'm at no risk of becoming anorexic any time soon.
I lost 50 lbs on a 1200 calorie diet five years ago. I maintained that loss for 4 years at a normal caloric level. I gained back a total of 10 lbs of that stress eating through a divorce, move halfway around the country, change in careers during the fifth year. I am now losing from what was my initial goal to my ultimate goal. I have no doubt that I won't have a problem maintaining that loss I spent most of my life fit. I also have not lost any LBM (as measured by DEXA scans).
Again, though, apparently you are talking about a VLCD which is a very different thing. You may not need peer reviewed studies but I don't trust anecdotal evidence because, well, it's anecdotal. Just the way my mind works.
Not sure if you've ever tried to look into any research but here are a few of thousands of studies.
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/35/2/155.short
Very low calorie diet, mostly fat lost minimal protein lost
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/54/1/56.short
VLCD 580 cal no decrease in RMR
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=609705
Diet of 424 calories safe
http://intl.jacn.org/content/18/2/115.short
With Resistance training, LBM and RMR were maintained even on 800 cal/day diets
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/38/1/20.short
With higher calories, lean body mass loss was within expected ranges for any weight loss
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0026049594900051
Lean body mass stays the same even with VLCD with higher protein levels
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/8383636
Minimal lean body mass lost at 800 calories. Standard amount of body fat vs. lean body mass loss with weight loss.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1038/oby.2001.134/full
Long term weight loss success with VLCD
http://link.springer.com/article/10.2165/00007256-200636030-00005
VLCD with increased protein and strength training promotes maintenance of lbm and RMR
I'm not saying that losing on higher calorie diets isn't healthy or possible (because that would just be silly). All I'm saying is that your claims have been proven untrue time and time again. For those people who actually are anorexic or following VLCDs, deficiencies in nutrition are a major concern and can certainly lead to LBM loss and decreases in RMR. An LCD, not so much.
I'm happy with my weight loss and whatever you chose to do or chose to believe I hope it's good for you, as long as you work towards your goal you will eventually succeed. The day someone shows me a study that says that LCDs cause any detriment to health or the day I get a DeXA scan that shows LBM loss, I will certainly bump my calories up. Until then, I'm getting plenty of healthy food, maintaining strength and LBM and should lose the rest of this weight within the next 3 months (including the time reverse dieting to get back up to maintenance calories) and that makes me happy.
Do you think people have done the research you have? Do they understand proper training methods while in such a large deficit? Do they know how to properly execute a diet at such low calories?
Do you think its leading to eating disorders? Do you think its leading to failed diets? Do you think a more moderate recommendation is right for the majority of people?
These aren't rhetorical questions.
My point is that regardless of whether or not you can make an intellectual debate for a 1200 calorie diet, I think its wrong for just about everyone. I think you displaying research in favor of such diets is just like handing a child a loaded gun. You very well may know a vast amount more than me, but, I know enough to say, that done incorrectly, its a very slippery slope.
I began to look over those studies but I need to read more than just the abstracts,so, I really can't comment on them right now.
1200 calorie diets aren't really ideal for a lot of people for a myriad of reasons including (but not limited to)
- psychological effects
-failure to recognize the importance of making nutritious decisions at almost every turn in order to fulfill nutrient requirements
-compliance issues (this is a big one and probably fits under psychological) people feel like they are failing at dieting and may remain obese or overweight because they think they "cannot" lose weight which is bad for obvious reasons
- failure to recognize the importance of resistance or strength training to maintain LBM and thus, RMR/BMR
- failure to recognize the importance of continued compliance with appropriate caloric levels at maintenance
I think that for the majority of people, a more moderate deficit is perfectly reasonable and probably even ideal.
I find it difficult to determine whether aggressive calorie deficits cause eating disorders. As far as I know, eating disorders are psychological and unpredictable (heavily related to self esteem). I've had friends who developed severe eating disorders and neither were overweight and I assure you both had behaviors that were extremely unhealthy and did not include a balanced diet of 1200 calories.
All you have to do is look around at some of the posts on these message boards to realize that most people don't do even a basic google search much less look into actual research.
My point is not to say that for most people a moderate deficit is a bad idea. My point is that even though I try not to be insulted by the implications that people who eat 1200 calories don't care about their health or are going to be skinny fat, they are still insults to both my intelligence and a stab at whether I care for myself. I do. I make very educated decisions about pretty much everything I do (again a personality thing) and I have friends who do the same.
These message boards abound with advice that people should increase their calories, ironically, the same thing that caused them to gain weight in the first place. In some cases, probably half, this is sound advice (for all the reasons I listed above). In the other cases, people may need a reality check. Even at extremely low calories, people should be losing weight. Their body composition would likely suffer severely but they should be losing weight. If someone says they aren't losing weight, people immediately jump to tell them their calories are too low. This isn't really the case. Even in studies such as the Minnesota Starvation Experiment, lean men starved for six months continued to lose weight. If someone is not losing weight, people should not be afraid to say that they are probably eating too much but that is the case. Posts like yours probably lead people to fail at achieving health as often as something like mine does. Someone tells someone they need to increase their calories because they aren't losing at 1300 (or whatever) so they do and they still don't lose weight so they grow tired of trying and quit when really the problem was that they weren't accounting for things like cooking oil or were just eyeballing food. Really, it's that own person's problem for quitting but it happens. Look at some of the old "plateau" posts and check those people's accounts.
My point is simply that saying unsubstantiated things is insulting to some people and demotivating for others. Again, I'm not by any means saying that people shouldn't try to lose weight on a lower deficit diet. All I'm saying is that insulting everyone as though it is some kind of rule that everyone who follows some low calorie diet (again I'm talking nutritious, reasonable, low calorie diet) is a lunch away from full blown, skinny fat, no muscle having anorexia is rude and kind of ridiculous and it happens a lot on here.
And sorry some of the research may be payment oriented. I can go through my post history and find more that aren't. I have free access to pretty much every journal through my university and sometimes forget to check if it is open access before posting.
Edited for spelling0 -
I firmly believe in eating as much as you can while still eating healthy and losing weight, if losing weight is what you want to do
ok.. so we agree.... i wont swallow that "people are different" garbage, cuz there is a million morons who think that they are that different individual, and they aren't... they don't even try a reasonable lifestyle before carelessly jumping into the deep end.
I mean, I can't tell you how many idiots I have come across who were discouraged that they couldnt keep up with their original water weight loss. After those 7-10 pounds dropped, they immediately dropped their calories thru the floor to try and keep losing that fast... Some people are going to be offended that I used the word "stupid". Well, sorry, stupid is as stupid does and behavior like that is stupid.0 -
Currently I'm on 1100 a day (won't lie, I burn 300 calories on the elliptical trainer 3-5 times a week and I DON'T usually eat them back). I would love to eat 1700+ a day but that would put me in "maintenance mode" (well actually slight gain).0
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It would be insulting if anyone ever said it. The only people who say that are the low-calorie people, who then attribute it to someone else so they can act all offended.I'm saying is that insulting everyone as though it is some kind of rule that everyone who follows some low calorie diet (again I'm talking nutritious, reasonable, low calorie diet) is a lunch away from full blown, skinny fat, no muscle having anorexia is rude and kind of ridiculous and it happens a lot on here.0 -
CristinaL1983, you seem to have your head on straight. I don't know what you weigh or how you go about your transitions to maintenance, but, it seems like you've at least done it successfully. I don't know why you're even second guessing yourself, if you think it's healthy for you, after doing the amount of reading [it seems like] you have.
My original post could have been more concise, but, I was venting. So be it, I'm human after all. Humane, not so much. I'd just like people to try a less drastic approach before adopting extreme caloric deficits. The consequences I've described aren't imaginary. They are consequences that many suffer from. If I were to be fair and say that some people would be just fine than everyone would think they were that special individual. You see the problem here? The second I don't lay a blanket statement everyone thinks they are the exception. Is this the best way to have a logical discussion or argument? No. Might I actually beat some sense into a few people who have made some poor choices? Probably not, but, I;d like to hope so.
The minnesota expirement didnt include exercise and it makes sense that your body would conserve fat for energy while sparing muscle during a prolonged time of low calories paired with exercise... There has been some research on that.
People who do less exercise or are older will always be eating at lower numbers because they dont have that added deficit and their metabolism has slowed with age... I don't mean to discourage such individuals. If you find that you need to cut calories lower, without ever making and drastic jumps downwards, than so be it.. I always make people do strength training whether or not its their ultimate goal. At the very least its good for gauging muscle loss during weight loss.
Thanks for answering my questions and presenting many good points in response to them.
this was a messy rant0 -
Dude, 90% of the time I agree with everything that you say. And I know you are a Monty Python fan so I like you automatically, but if you really want me to find all the posts where the OP says pretty much exactly this, I have nothing but time on my hands. My job right now is pretty much just full time student so researching is what I do. Aside from the actual posts that say almost exactly this, people reiterate it constantly. Fully unsupported by research but people express this as nearly biblical fact. If you want me to find these posts, let me know, I'll have them for you within an hour.
It would be insulting if anyone ever said it. The only people who say that are the low-calorie people, who then attribute it to someone else so they can act all offended.I'm saying is that insulting everyone as though it is some kind of rule that everyone who follows some low calorie diet (again I'm talking nutritious, reasonable, low calorie diet) is a lunch away from full blown, skinny fat, no muscle having anorexia is rude and kind of ridiculous and it happens a lot on here.0 -
Ok, so I am eating 1200 and now am concerned about my health. However, I also have $780 dollars riding on losing 6 pounds by the 12th of April to get a discount on my health insurance through work. I am really concerned that by adding extra calories at this point in the game. Doesn't it take a while for your body to adapt to these extra calories? Anyone have any suggestions for me?0
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What I've also rarely if ever seen, apart from your post above, is anyone saying "I'm on 1200 and it's fine for me but probably isn't for you, unless you meet all of these specific conditions." You know how on TV shows when they do something inherently dangerous they say, "don't try this at home" or on car ads they'll say "professional driver on closed course, do not attempt." It would be nice if people promoting a low calorie diet would include those types of qualifications in their statements too. Instead what happens is these threads are polarized and the real point is lost to extremism.
Dude, 90% of the time I agree with everything that you say. And I know you are a Monty Python fan so I like you automatically, but if you really want me to find all the posts where the OP says pretty much exactly this, I have nothing but time on my hands. My job right now is pretty much just full time student so researching is what I do. Aside from the actual posts that say almost exactly this, people reiterate it constantly. Fully unsupported by research but people express this as nearly biblical fact. If you want me to find these posts, let me know, I'll have them for you within an hour.
It would be insulting if anyone ever said it. The only people who say that are the low-calorie people, who then attribute it to someone else so they can act all offended.I'm saying is that insulting everyone as though it is some kind of rule that everyone who follows some low calorie diet (again I'm talking nutritious, reasonable, low calorie diet) is a lunch away from full blown, skinny fat, no muscle having anorexia is rude and kind of ridiculous and it happens a lot on here.0 -
I hate to break it to you but I'm eating at exactly 1,200 calories a day and it's working for me! I went over that calorie limit last week because I had to go out of town and couldn't take my laptop with me, kept exercising and I didn't gain any of it back. I think that speaks for itself.0
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I couldn't have scripted that any better.0
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for example , the 27 year old 200# girl eating 1200-1400 calories
Please don't use me as an example because this is not at all accurate, kthanxbai.0 -
Some people simply cannot lose weight eating more. Maybe instead of judging them all you should ask them what they've tried.
What have you tried?.... please include consistency and duration of diet. Also, age, weight, and current diet.
weight 167
5'3"
25yrs old.
I now eat 1200-1450 daily and have been losing 1lb per week the past two weeks. Albeit I will agree it's not very healthy for the most part since breakfast is usually a meal bar or shake. Same with lunch or a small lunch around 200-300 calories or a sandwich. Dinner is pretty healthy. Usually something like black beans, wheat tortilla, salad ect...or a tofu stirfry, ocassional veggie black bean burger..quorn (limited quorn), soup + salad or big salad or salad and potato....chili...these are just off the top of my head that I usually get. I have also added snacks like half a grapefruit, plum, an apple, orange or 100 calories of some crappy food here and there like chips. Usually 3 snacks a day 2/3 are fruit or a veg. One or two days a week I eat 1500-1600.
Exercise: 3-4 days a week 30mins to an hour. cardio at gym and strenght a couple of days, a work out video like jillian micheals a couple of days or kickboxing or pilates videos.
Prior when I unable to lose, this was the norm for a about 2 months close to 1800 cals most days:
Ate food at all my meals. Breakfast usually protein smoothie, around 350-400 calories or a quinoa breakfast bowl, if not that then oatmeal and couple slices of light wheat toast. More often than not it was a smoothie. Lunch was usually something like a burrito with beans, pico, avocado with lettuce, one or two of those, small tortillas. Dinner was a tofu stirfry albeit heavy on sauce (which probably added cals) or baked tofu fries. Or it would be a black bean mexican bowl which was probably too big which included black beans, corn, pic, avocado and tofu. snack was usually an apple and only one snack a day.
I did exercise 5 days a week 3 strenght exclusively with 10min cardio warm up and cool down. 2 days were just cardio 30-50mins ate 80%mhr. 1 of the strenght days I also did 20mins of cardio
And before that I ate the same but I ate out more with contributed to gaining most likely pushing me to 2200+ a couple of days a week. I also worked out maybe twice a week at best.
During this time I was also on medication with a side effect of increased appetite for sweets so I did eat those like 3-4days a week and another side effect was noted weight gain. I gained 15lbs then withing 2 months nov and dec.
Some medications cause weight gain... Sometimes it doesnt matter how much you eat. My brother had to take something that did this. It was incredible how muhc weigth gain it caused. I havent really read into it but my guess is it messes up your bodies "calorie partitioning" (google it).. This variable alone makes you not the average person. I honestly cant tell you if its safe to combat the side effects of the medicine with really low calories.
Moving on
You said a few things that made it obvious that your calorie tracking isn't perfect. A lot of people underestimate their intake with their recording methods. You say you're eating 12-1400, but, who knows, it could easily be a couple hundred more...
My only criticism would be that rather than dropping from 1800 to 1700-1600, you dropped straight to 1400-1200... Its not the end of the world, but, i would have made a slower transition and stopped when i started losing weight..0 -
for example , the 27 year old 200# girl eating 1200-1400 calories
Please don't use me as an example because this is not at all accurate, kthanxbai.
lulz..
hopes not srs0 -
CristinaL1983, you seem to have your head on straight. I don't know what you weigh or how you go about your transitions to maintenance, but, it seems like you've at least done it successfully. I don't know why you're even second guessing yourself, if you think it's healthy for you, after doing the amount of reading [it seems like] you have.
My original post could have been more concise, but, I was venting. So be it, I'm human after all. Humane, not so much. I'd just like people to try a less drastic approach before adopting extreme caloric deficits. The consequences I've described aren't imaginary. They are consequences that many suffer from. If I were to be fair and say that some people would be just fine than everyone would think they were that special individual. You see the problem here? The second I don't lay a blanket statement everyone thinks they are the exception. Is this the best way to have a logical discussion or argument? No. Might I actually beat some sense into a few people who have made some poor choices? Probably not, but, I;d like to hope so.
The minnesota expirement didnt include exercise and it makes sense that your body would conserve fat for energy while sparing muscle during a prolonged time of low calories paired with exercise... There has been some research on that.
People who do less exercise or are older will always be eating at lower numbers because they dont have that added deficit and their metabolism has slowed with age... I don't mean to discourage such individuals. If you find that you need to cut calories lower, without ever making and drastic jumps downwards, than so be it.. I always make people do strength training whether or not its their ultimate goal. At the very least its good for gauging muscle loss during weight loss.
Thanks for answering my questions and presenting many good points in response to them.
this was a messy rant
First thing (and this is really my only disagreement with this) the Minnesota Starvation Experiment included copious amounts of exercise including extended marches and other exercise. The entire point was to determine the best way of "re-feeding" following the holocaust for those in labor camps.
My experience isn't really that people express themselves succinctly on the internet. I have been accused of that several times. Again, I'm not disagreeing with the general sentiment. My point is that people post these types of posts often and all make blanket insults without moderation.
Would your post be as effective with more caveats? Maybe, maybe not. I know it wouldn't really irk me as much if posts like this were a bit more specific to your desired audience but maybe my personality type is more unique than I thought originally.
Regardless, I like to play a bit of devil's advocate from a moderately educated point of view and give a bit of perspective from my side. I'm not disagreeing that it may not be the "best" way but I'm saying that your statements don't apply to all.0 -
for example , the 27 year old 200# girl eating 1200-1400 calories
Please don't use me as an example because this is not at all accurate, kthanxbai.
lulz..
hopes not srs
LOL are YOU srs?0 -
i like food0
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If you have any peer reviewed studies to support what you're saying that would be awesome. Otherwise, you just seem to be trolling.
While I agree with OP and I personally know that low-calorie diet is horrible, I absolutely LOVE that you wish to learn and ask for research rather than just blindingly following anything, anyone says. Good on you! I didn't read the other replies but if you wish research, PM me and i'll hook you up with people who can provide them to you 0 -
^ me too.
Prime rib with a nice salty au jus, cheesy potatoes, cheesecake, strawberry pie with graham cracker crust. Eff.0 -
If you have any peer reviewed studies to support what you're saying that would be awesome. Otherwise, you just seem to be trolling.
^ oh please!!! get real and get out of town I AM THE PROOF. now study that ish
And this is one of the bigger problems of MFP. NO! You're NOT a proof. Not when somebody, politely may I add, asks for research they're given with "oh look at me, I did it". Well, people living on 300 calories a day have done it too....
Provide solid research and ENCOURAGE people questioning things rather than blindly following any advice...0 -
If you have any peer reviewed studies to support what you're saying that would be awesome. Otherwise, you just seem to be trolling.
^ oh please!!! get real and get out of town I AM THE PROOF. now study that ish
And this is one of the bigger problems of MFP. NO! You're NOT a proof. Not when somebody, politely may I add, asks for research they're given with "oh look at me, I did it". Well, people living on 300 calories a day have done it too....
Provide solid research and ENCOURAGE people questioning things rather than blindly following any advice...
I don't agree with your posts often, but when I do, it's when you post about trusting peer-reviewed studies and solid research instead of Wikipedia or personal anecdotes as trusted sources.0 -
First thing (and this is really my only disagreement with this) the Minnesota Starvation Experiment included copious amounts of exercise including extended marches and other exercise. The entire point was to determine the best way of "re-feeding" following the holocaust for those in labor camps.
My experience isn't really that people express themselves succinctly on the internet. I have been accused of that several times. Again, I'm not disagreeing with the general sentiment. My point is that people post these types of posts often and all make blanket insults without moderation.
Would your post be as effective with more caveats? Maybe, maybe not. I know it wouldn't really irk me as much if posts like this were a bit more specific to your desired audience but maybe my personality type is more unique than I thought originally.
Regardless, I like to play a bit of devil's advocate from a moderately educated point of view and give a bit of perspective from my side. I'm not disagreeing that it may not be the "best" way but I'm saying that your statements don't apply to all.
stop zinging me or i'm gonna have to start making some absolutely asinine claims... all this ice cream clouds my memory (yes, the ice cream defense... its impervious to your intelligence)
You hit the nail on the head when you used the word "biblical".... I know what you mean when you say that all these unfounded "commandments" get people nowhere... I think people need to self advocate and do the research we've done... I like to post links a lot... Problem is a lot of sources are garbage... Everyone wants to do something trendy, and trendy doesnt really= effective.. So this is all in vain... But, its fun to let it out for a bit... If I can help a few people a year thats better than none.... Logic and reasoning will never be popular... Reading rather than asking questions is "lame".0
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