Confused about lifting and weight loss
Replies
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Somebody help me out. You cant build muscle without eating at a surplus
says who?
Human physiology
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There is a well known phenomenon that those of us new to strenuous exercise can lose fat and build muscle at the same time. The gym term for this is "Newbie gains" and it has been proven through research, although I can't find the reference at the moment.
I'd be extremely interested in said research. I've never seen any link to any research proving significant muscle gain while on a deficit without steroids, despite reading hundreds of conversations on the topic.0 -
Somebody help me out. You cant build muscle without eating at a surplus
says who?
Human physiology
i disagree. while you'll never achieve huge size and big numbers on lifts, it is possible to increase size and strength, especially in the beginning, while eating at a deficit.0 -
Somebody help me out. You cant build muscle without eating at a surplus
says who?
Human physiology
i disagree. while you'll never achieve huge size and big numbers on lifts, it is possible to increase size and strength, especially in the beginning, while eating at a deficit.
The only place I've ever seen this is in absolute beginners who are very fat, and sometimes not even then.0 -
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/1/19.shortThere is a well known phenomenon that those of us new to strenuous exercise can lose fat and build muscle at the same time. The gym term for this is "Newbie gains" and it has been proven through research, although I can't find the reference at the moment.
I'd be extremely interested in said research. I've never seen any link to any research proving significant muscle gain while on a deficit without steroids, despite reading hundreds of conversations on the topic.It was concluded that weight training results in comparable gains in muscle area and strength for DPE and EO. Adding weight training exercise to a caloric restriction program results in maintenance of LBW compared with DO.
...
The increase of 0.43 kg in LBW for the DPE group is comparable to the largest increases reported in other dietplus-exercise studies. Zuti and Golding (5) and Lewis et al (27) report LBW increases of 0.5 and 1. 1 kg over 16and 17 wk, respectively.
In this article, they put 1 group on weight lifting plus diet, 1 group exercise only, 1 group diet only. In 16 weeks they developed 1/2 a kilo in lean body mass (muscle) (about 1 pound). They also cite a study where people gained up to 1.1 kg muscle in 17 weeks.
It's not as large a gain as someone who is bulking would be looking for and the studies make no mention of whether the individuals had previous training experience and they were all obese but it is a gain in a deficit.
Edit: Oh yeah, and EO (exercise only) and DPE (diet plus exercise) had comparable gains. So whether eating at maintenance or deficit made no difference in the studies.0 -
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/1/19.shortThere is a well known phenomenon that those of us new to strenuous exercise can lose fat and build muscle at the same time. The gym term for this is "Newbie gains" and it has been proven through research, although I can't find the reference at the moment.
I'd be extremely interested in said research. I've never seen any link to any research proving significant muscle gain while on a deficit without steroids, despite reading hundreds of conversations on the topic.It was concluded that weight training results in comparable gains in muscle area and strength for DPE and EO. Adding weight training exercise to a caloric restriction program results in maintenance of LBW compared with DO.
...
The increase of 0.43 kg in LBW for the DPE group is comparable to the largest increases reported in other dietplus-exercise studies. Zuti and Golding (5) and Lewis et al (27) report LBW increases of 0.5 and 1. 1 kg over 16and 17 wk, respectively.
In this article, they put 1 group on weight lifting plus diet, 1 group exercise only, 1 group diet only. In 16 weeks they developed 1/2 a kilo in lean body mass (muscle) (about 1 pound). They also cite a study where people gained up to 1.1 kg muscle in 17 weeks.
It's not as large a gain as someone who is bulking would be looking for and the studies make no mention of whether the individuals had previous training experience and they were all obese but it is a gain in a deficit.
Edit: Oh yeah, and EO (exercise only) and DPE (diet plus exercise) had comparable gains. So whether eating at maintenance or deficit made no difference in the studies.
Heh, thanks for the info. 2 pounds in 17 weeks? Woo! 0 -
Thanks very much for all the replies. I think the consensus is small "newbie" gains while at a deficit. I can live with that. Not losing lean muscle is the big thing for me. Anyone who wants to add to this, please feel free, I just don't want this to devolve into on of "those" threads. Folks who don't agree, lets just agree to disagree just this one time. I went to the gym and joined on my lunch break, nice folks. $25 per month, no contract and what i believe to be good equipment. I am excited to get started Monday!!0
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Keep in mind there are several different programs that call themselves "stronglifts" ... Some are geared toward already advanced lifters. Some for beginners. The one I engage in has squats 3x per week... nobody would consider squatting 3x a week a beginner program.This post makes no sense. Strong Lifts and Starting Strength are virtually the same program. You squat every time out on both, you add 30 lbs every two weeks to deadlift on both, and you alternate bench press and overhead press each workout. Thus, your strength gains would be nearly identical, if you start off in the same spot.
Strong Lifts has you start out with the empty barbell, so that you do learn and practice proper form so that when you start pushing yourself, you know what you're doing.
StrongLifts is a fine beginner program, if you follow it properly.0 -
Or my 17 year old kid who is simply a raging hormone. He lost 20lbs and built mass simultaneously, NOT just strength.Somebody help me out. You cant build muscle without eating at a surplus
says who?
Human physiology
i disagree. while you'll never achieve huge size and big numbers on lifts, it is possible to increase size and strength, especially in the beginning, while eating at a deficit.
The only place I've ever seen this is in absolute beginners who are very fat, and sometimes not even then.0 -
Thanks very much for all the replies. I think the consensus is small "newbie" gains while at a deficit. I can live with that. Not losing lean muscle is the big thing for me. Anyone who wants to add to this, please feel free, I just don't want this to devolve into on of "those" threads. Folks who don't agree, lets just agree to disagree just this one time. I went to the gym and joined on my lunch break, nice folks. $25 per month, no contract and what i believe to be good equipment. I am excited to get started Monday!!
If you're going to be doing lifting with a barbell, you need to do a lot of reading, studying, and practice to get the movements down. They are complicated indeed. I strongly recommend that you pick up Starting Strength and treat it like the Bible. Do a hundred squats with minimal weight on the bar and ramp up the weight slowly. Take video, have it analyzed by people who know what they're talking about like Taso and Sidesteel. Join the Eat, Train, Progress group and listen to what those people have to say because they know what they're talking about.0 -
Keep in mind there are several different programs that call themselves "stronglifts" ... Some are geared toward already advanced lifters. Some for beginners. The one I engage in has squats 3x per week... nobody would consider squatting 3x a week a beginner program.This post makes no sense. Strong Lifts and Starting Strength are virtually the same program. You squat every time out on both, you add 30 lbs every two weeks to deadlift on both, and you alternate bench press and overhead press each workout. Thus, your strength gains would be nearly identical, if you start off in the same spot.
Strong Lifts has you start out with the empty barbell, so that you do learn and practice proper form so that when you start pushing yourself, you know what you're doing.
StrongLifts is a fine beginner program, if you follow it properly.
Rippetoe does.0 -
Keep in mind there are several different programs that call themselves "stronglifts" ... Some are geared toward already advanced lifters. Some for beginners. The one I engage in has squats 3x per week... nobody would consider squatting 3x a week a beginner program.
Nope. StrongLifts 5x5 is the beginner. StrongLifts 3x5 is generally considered intermediate. StrongLifts 1x5 is generally considered advanced. All of them have you squatting 3x per week.
Starting Strength - key word is "Starting" - is a beginner program and has you squat 3x per week - every version of it, that I can think of.
Many other beginner full-body routines also have you squat 3x per week.
Many (most?) intermediate and above programs reduce squats to 1 or 2 times per week.0 -
I understand your frustration man. Weight loss can be a very confusing and complicated thing. You're body has to adapt to changes and sometimes weird things start to happen.
If you're looking for a good work out or diet plan though, I recommend checking out my personal blog. I wouldn't share my site if It were for the purpose of making money, my blog is 100% free reviews of weight loss products and programs. Give my site a look
http://www.weightlessreviews.com and find something that fits you.0 -
Well then I stand corrected and thank those that provided the proper information.Keep in mind there are several different programs that call themselves "stronglifts" ... Some are geared toward already advanced lifters. Some for beginners. The one I engage in has squats 3x per week... nobody would consider squatting 3x a week a beginner program.
Nope. StrongLifts 5x5 is the beginner. StrongLifts 3x5 is generally considered intermediate. StrongLifts 1x5 is generally considered advanced. All of them have you squatting 3x per week.
Starting Strength - key word is "Starting" - is a beginner program and has you squat 3x per week - every version of it, that I can think of.
Many other beginner full-body routines also have you squat 3x per week.
Many (most?) intermediate and above programs reduce squats to 1 or 2 times per week.
Perhaps I should have said "nobody would consider squatting 3x a week an easy program" ...
Maybe it's my age, but squats (even with doing them for quite some time now) still cause me more DOMS than any other.0 -
Yeah, but Rippetoe also says things like "... goofy anthropometry... " with this amazingly hillbilly accent and it's so hard to take him seriously...Rippetoe does.
Until you realize he's an absolute genius in his field.
My specialty is cardiology, but I've spent considerable time (3 years) studying the use of ketogenic diets for glycemic control and weight-loss ... other than those two fields of study I will most certainly defer to others.0 -
I'm a bit of a Rippetoe-ite, and until anyone has half of the experience and reputation that man does, I'm not so inclined to listen to a lot of what they have to say unless they bring a ton of common sense to the table and understand what a "fad" is and that "scientific data" is in the eye of the interpreter and can be manipulated by just about anybody with an agenda.
I'm gaining musle eating at a deficit and doing strength training 3x/weekly.
And if what I'm gaining isn't muscle, then I really don't know what's making me pick up heavy things outside the gym with far more ease than I'm used to doing. Maybe some other substance nobody's ever heard of.
I'm still enjoying "newbie gains" (I guess), although I'm not sure what that even means because I've been using my muscles all my life so it's not like I started at level zero with no muscle strength to speak of. I just didn't start at being able to pick up 100 pound weights. Sometimes the way people word things just makes me ... scratch my head. I also don't have a ginormous crapload of weight to lose (about 25-30 lbs), so it's entirely possible to gain muscle and lose fat (I'm assuming that's what I've been losing since my waist has shrunk and there was definitely a sizeable flabby cushion around it before) without being grossly morbidly obese.
Investing yourself in strength training and expecting to see immediate weight loss result is going to never happen. Developing greater muscle strength will help make one's flabby bits take on a different shape over a longer amount of time, though. The key to weight lifting is patience. Find yours and apply it, and you will be fine.
For some reason, based on genetics, the changing flabby bits won't usually be the ones you want to see change first. Sorry. That's why you see mostly pictures of muscular arms/shoulders being flexed around here because they're usually the first part to show any noticeable change (and have the least amount of cottage cheese, usually). I know this cause I saw muscles on my upper arms in the mirror the other week, which made me giggle with probably far more glee than was appropriate. (Score!)
If you're a slave to scale numbers and your personal happiness is based on what they have to say, then doing strength training will make you pull your hair out and question your sanity. Then again if you're already a slave to scale numbers you're probably not super sane to begin with so you should be fine either way. Just try not to let your OCD get the better of you (it's hard, I know).
If you're okay with banning your scale to the back of your closet and only digging it out every few weeks to check general progression, then you'll do much better (I finally did that today, go me!).
Cardio mostly sucks unless you're trying to outrun a wild animal that wants to eat you for dinner. Then it's actually useful.
The above are strictly my personal opinion.0 -
You can get stronger without gaining muscle mass no problem. CNS adaptation.0
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You can get stronger without gaining muscle mass no problem. CNS adaptation.
And the downside would be ... ???
I actually read (forgot where) that most overweight folk usually have a lot of muscle under their fat already from hauling all that flab around. So unless they're pretty immobile and super sedentary ... I'm not so sure that many need to actually "build" a lot of muscle.
Confirm/deny?
Either way my body is changing, and I like it. I personally see zero downside to barbell training.
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You can get stronger without gaining muscle mass no problem. CNS adaptation.
And the downside would be ... ???
I actually read (forgot where) that most overweight folk usually have a lot of muscle under their fat already from hauling all that flab around. So unless they're pretty immobile and super sedentary ... I'm not so sure that many need to actually "build" a lot of muscle.
Confirm/deny?
Either way my body is changing, and I like it. I personally see zero downside to barbell training.
There's no downside to getting stronger that I know of :laugh:
Just pointing out that you can and will get much stronger without actually gaining muscle.
And yeah, untrained fat people generally have a lot more muscle than untrained skinny people. They have a lot more mass to move around.0 -
nobody would consider squatting 3x a week a beginner program.
I would, particularly when you start intentionally seriously VERY light. Higher frequency helps build pathways to allow you to dial in form quickly and effectively.0 -
There's no downside to getting stronger that I know of :laugh:
Just pointing out that you can and will get much stronger without actually gaining muscle.
And yeah, untrained fat people generally have a lot more muscle than untrained skinny people. They have a lot more mass to move around.
Okay, then in your opinion, what people group needs to actually concern themselves with building muscles, strictly from an average Joe Schmoe, non-muscle-builder, functional strength perspective?
And, what people group(s) should really just be more concerned with maintaining the muscles they've got already and work on fat loss combined with strength, general fitness and flexibility gains (again, strictly functionally speaking because most MFP members are probably not paid athletes) through a program of modest strength/resistance training combined with some form of cardiovascular exercise/activity?
I'm asking you specifically because you seem to be one of the more common sense people around here that I've noticed, and I'm allergic to fads and extremism.0 -
There's no downside to getting stronger that I know of :laugh:
Just pointing out that you can and will get much stronger without actually gaining muscle.
And yeah, untrained fat people generally have a lot more muscle than untrained skinny people. They have a lot more mass to move around.
Okay, then in your opinion, what people group needs to actually concern themselves with building muscles, strictly from an average Joe Schmoe, non-muscle-builder, functional strength perspective?
And, what people group(s) should really just be more concerned with maintaining the muscles they've got already and work on fat loss combined with strength, general fitness and flexibility gains (again, strictly functionally speaking because most MFP members are probably not paid athletes) through a program of modest strength/resistance training combined with some form of cardiovascular exercise/activity?
I'm asking you specifically because you seem to be one of the more common sense people around here that I've noticed, and I'm allergic to fads and extremism.
Honestly not sure what you're asking here. People who are just starting out and are overweight (who want to lose body fat and not train for a specific sport or something) should, without question, eat a modest calorie deficit while beginning a heavy lifting program like Starting Strength and eating a lot of protein.
Pretty much everyone should lift in some fashion. If you do so while losing weight, you can lose fat and retain muscle. If you do so while gaining weight, you will gain fat and muscle.
Cardio is fairly unimportant in general. You certainly want to get some - on the order of 2 hours a week - unless you're training for something in particular.0 -
Honestly not sure what you're asking here. People who are just starting out and are overweight (who want to lose body fat and not train for a specific sport or something) should, without question, eat a modest calorie deficit while beginning a heavy lifting program like Starting Strength and eating a lot of protein.
Pretty much everyone should lift in some fashion. If you do so while losing weight, you can lose fat and retain muscle. If you do so while gaining weight, you will gain fat and muscle.
Cardio is fairly unimportant in general. You certainly want to get some - on the order of 2 hours a week - unless you're training for something in particular.
Unbelievably well said!0 -
I was all ready to chime in and debunk the myth that you can't add muscle while in a deficit. Then I analyzed the data I have collected for the past year and ate crow. Last July, I had 154 lbs of LBM (24% BF, 205 lbs total weight). I now have 151 lbs of LBM (22.6% BF, 195 lbs total weight). I hate data. That means of the 10 lbs of weight I lost, 40% of that was muscle mass. Ugh. And I have been lifting the whole time. Not properly and have not gained or lost any strength during this period. So, the only conclusion I can draw from the data is that I lost muscle mass while in a deficit while lifting weights and maintaining strength. I guess I should be happy I have the same strength with less muscle mass.
I may go get another BodPod done to see exactly where I sit.
I just started Starting Strength, but I have noticed it puts a lot of stress on my system. Not from the weights, but from the recovery. I may have to re-eveluate this approach. Maybe I won't go for adding weight every session, just the 3x5 approach vs. using the machines I had been doing.0 -
I was all ready to chime in and debunk the myth that you can't add muscle while in a deficit. Then I analyzed the data I have collected for the past year and ate crow. Last July, I had 154 lbs of LBM (24% BF, 205 lbs total weight). I now have 151 lbs of LBM (22.6% BF, 195 lbs total weight). I hate data. That means of the 10 lbs of weight I lost, 40% of that was muscle mass. Ugh. And I have been lifting the whole time. Not properly and have not gained or lost any strength during this period. So, the only conclusion I can draw from the data is that I lost muscle mass while in a deficit while lifting weights and maintaining strength. I guess I should be happy I have the same strength with less muscle mass.
I may go get another BodPod done to see exactly where I sit.
I just started Starting Strength, but I have noticed it puts a lot of stress on my system. Not from the weights, but from the recovery. I may have to re-eveluate this approach. Maybe I won't go for adding weight every session, just the 3x5 approach vs. using the machines I had been doing.
That's why I went from SS to a 5/3/1 progression. I was a noob at 30 and squatting heavy 3 times a week and adding every workout was just too rough on my body while losing weight. I'm comfortable making slower gains, adding weight once every 3 weeks instead of 1-3 times a week.0 -
Honestly not sure what you're asking here. People who are just starting out and are overweight (who want to lose body fat and not train for a specific sport or something) should, without question, eat a modest calorie deficit while beginning a heavy lifting program like Starting Strength and eating a lot of protein.
Pretty much everyone should lift in some fashion. If you do so while losing weight, you can lose fat and retain muscle. If you do so while gaining weight, you will gain fat and muscle.
Cardio is fairly unimportant in general. You certainly want to get some - on the order of 2 hours a week - unless you're training for something in particular.
That's what I thought. Thanks!
Also, what do you mean by "a lot of protein"?
I read someplace that eating a lot more protein that your body uses ends up potentially hurting the kidneys since it's just eliminated if it's not actually being used? I don't want to damage my personal sanitation department cause I need my kidneys and liver and hear replacements for those are hard to come by. I lift 3x/weekly (barbells) and do no cardio if I can help it (other than stuff like mowing the grass, cleaning, walking, the occasional round of kickboxing, etc.).
Just wondering cause I've been averaging about 100-150g protein/day and that's about realistic for me as far as consistently being able to stick to it without having to do a major cranking up of protein powder intake. 25% is 143g, so I don't see going to 40% like, ever.
Sorry if I'm putting you on the spot and need to be taking my questions elsewhere. If so just let me know.0 -
This is depressing:
The line is my total weight. The dots are LBM. I measure with an Omron thingy but I spot check against a BodPod every now and again. While it jumps around a lot, the trends are quite clear.
LBM is dropping at the same rate as my overall weight. That wasn't happening in the past. Time to rethink my approach. I just looked at my protein intake for the past 45 days and it averages 160g / day. That should be enough.
I am going to schedule another BodPod to validate the data (I get unlimited visits for a year).
I am losing inches. Gut went from 40 in. to 37 in. Waist went from 37 in. to 35.75 in. Thighs are the same size (legs are very lean). Biceps have shrunk though from 13.5 in. to 12.5 in.
Tom0 -
Honestly not sure what you're asking here. People who are just starting out and are overweight (who want to lose body fat and not train for a specific sport or something) should, without question, eat a modest calorie deficit while beginning a heavy lifting program like Starting Strength and eating a lot of protein.
Pretty much everyone should lift in some fashion. If you do so while losing weight, you can lose fat and retain muscle. If you do so while gaining weight, you will gain fat and muscle.
Cardio is fairly unimportant in general. You certainly want to get some - on the order of 2 hours a week - unless you're training for something in particular.
That's what I thought. Thanks!
Also, what do you mean by "a lot of protein"?
I read someplace that eating a lot more protein that your body uses ends up potentially hurting the kidneys since it's just eliminated if it's not actually being used? I don't want to damage my personal sanitation department cause I need my kidneys and liver and hear replacements for those are hard to come by. I lift 3x/weekly (barbells) and do no cardio if I can help it (other than stuff like mowing the grass, cleaning, walking, the occasional round of kickboxing, etc.).
Just wondering cause I've been averaging about 100-150g protein/day and that's about realistic for me as far as consistently being able to stick to it without having to do a major cranking up of protein powder intake. 25% is 143g, so I don't see going to 40% like, ever.
Sorry if I'm putting you on the spot and need to be taking my questions elsewhere. If so just let me know.
1 g of protein per lb of lean mass. Treat this as a minimum. If your kidneys function normally it will take many times this amount to be a problem. Also, get 0.3 times body weight in fat.
Ask all the questions you want.0 -
DISREGARD ALL OF THIS DATA
Turns out I was not adjusting my Omron thingy to account for the weight loss. Just did that and did a remeasure and I have the same amount of LBM as I had 40 days ago. Garbage in, garbage out. Lesson learned. I am an idiot. Now I am very happy because my BF% has dropped over 3% in the last 40 days. Awesome.This is depressing:
The line is my total weight. The dots are LBM. I measure with an Omron thingy but I spot check against a BodPod every now and again. While it jumps around a lot, the trends are quite clear.
LBM is dropping at the same rate as my overall weight. That wasn't happening in the past. Time to rethink my approach. I just looked at my protein intake for the past 45 days and it averages 160g / day. That should be enough.
I am going to schedule another BodPod to validate the data (I get unlimited visits for a year).
I am losing inches. Gut went from 40 in. to 37 in. Waist went from 37 in. to 35.75 in. Thighs are the same size (legs are very lean). Biceps have shrunk though from 13.5 in. to 12.5 in.
Tom0 -
what do you mean by "a lot of protein"?
Most common recommendation is 1g per lb of body weight, but if you happen to know your bf%, then I would instead shoot for 1.5g per kg of LBM.0
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