Calories and diet

ewrob

In my recent posts feed, I am seeing a lot of concern over calories. How many calories to take in, how to control that number, and so on. I see a lot what sound to me like really low daily calorie intakes.

In the last month, I've lost about 30 lbs and I don't even give calories much thought. I think I average about 2000 to 2200 calories per day. I've done it by switching to a plant-based diet, and that's about it. I'm mostly on MFP for fun and to track my progress.

The meals I used to eat probably averaged around 900 calories, because that was what it took to make me feel full. Meals that I eat now are generally between 500 and 600 calories, with fruits, vegetables and nuts as snacks. I feel just as full as before, but the difference is that the foods that I am eating are not heavily refined and processed. They are not as nutritionally dense, but I still feel full eating them.

I believe that a lifestyle change is far more effective than a diet for long term weight loss. I have lost weight before (never this quickly, though) but I have always gained it back. That is why I wanted to make a simple, low-maintenance change. That change can be summed up in three words, no animal products.

Our government (for those who like me live in the United States) has been telling us lies for decades that we need these animal products. We need milk for calcium and meat for protein. Dairy and eggs are good for us. It isn't true and it is a conflict of interest that is built right into the USDA's conflicting mandates of promoting public health while simultaneously promoting agribusiness.

One thing that shocked me into this change was the realization that the top killers in this country are diet related diseases such as heart attacks, strokes, diabetes and cancer. An overwhelming majority of people that die in this country succumb to such diet related causes. I don't want to die an early death from one of these diseases, so I decided that I needed to make a permanent change rather than just going on a diet. This video was very eye opening for me, and I'd encourage anyone to view it regardless of how healthy you feel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30gEiweaAVQ

Everyone that I've talked to tells me that there is no way they could give up meat, they like it too much. I don't understand that. If anyone loved meat, it was me. One of my favorite meals was a great big bowl of hamburger helper, topped with a mountain of cheese. I was a hamburger connoisseur and experimented with all manner of unusual flavor combinations. And yet, it hasn't really been all that difficult a transition for me. Partly because I've still been able to eat a lot of my favorites. I just had a phenomenal burger a couple of days ago with a beefless patty from Gardein. I'm making a veggie spaghetti with meatless meatballs that is way more interesting than any spaghetti I ever made before the switch. It has bell peppers, white and red onions, jalepeno and serrano peppers, kale, green onions and sprouts in it. Before that I just threw pasta, beef and marinara sauce together and called it a meal. How bland that seems today. I'm also enjoying curry, stir fry and other favorites just as I did before.

I still have a long way to go, but after just a month I have seen amazing results. I am now eating healthfully and I have far more energy as a result. I am finding myself naturally becoming more active, going on walks on a daily basis and using the stationary bike to burn off some of the excess energy that I have. I am satisfied with what I eat and I really believe that it could work for just about anyone if they approached it with an open mind and gave it a shot. I am also dramatically lowering my chances of dying from heart disease, stroke, cancer, diabetes and other similar maladies. Cutting calories alone doesn't have the same effect.

Cr01502

My grandmother is skinny as a rail and she's 93.

She drinks milk and eats meat everyday.

Cute youtube video though. The guy tells some pretty funny jokes.

BlackEyedPanda

Hi,
I completely agree with you! I have been on a plant based diet for a couple of months now and I lost 5kg without trying in my first month. I still munched on non-dairy chocolates etc but lost weight. I started counting calories only as a "side effect" a week ago.


Oh, if you look at my diary it seems like I eat very little but it is just because this has been a really busy week, usually I eat more

Just2Bhappy

I could give up meat easily. Cheese/eggs is another story. No you don't NEED them but they are good for you as long as you buy products with no additives. I go to trader joes or whole foods and get my products from there. I agree a plant based diet is a GREAT choice as long as you know how to get the right nutrition. I tried to go vegan for a while but I could never get more then 20-30g protein a day. I don't like "imitation" Products. Fake cheese, meat and such. It's gross and imagine the fillers in them. Gross.

I try to just stick to moderation and make 75% of my diet plant based. I have been failing recently. LOL Oh well, try try again.

Cr01502

I started counting calories only as a "side effect" a week ago.

That's a VERY interesting side effect.

I didn't know veganism did this too people.

Thank you for sharing your story.

:flowerforyou:

ewrob

My grandmother is skinny as a rail and she's 93.

She drinks milk and eats meat everyday.

Cute youtube video though. The guy tells some pretty funny jokes.

Your anecdote lacks validity in comparison to scientific studies on nutrition.

ron2e

Congratulations on making the right lifestyle choice for you. That's a huge weight loss for a month, many on here will claim you can't keep it up, but I'm more open minded and say good for you, if you can make that work for you that's great. However I'm firmly in the meat and fish camp but that is part of my lifestyle choice though more fruit and veggies are definitely part of my more healthy eating. Personally I can't see the point in trying to make non meat taste like meat so that doesn't tempt me at all. Also I buy my meat from a butcher (and fish from a fishmonger) I've known for years, not a supermarket so I know where it comes from and how it is prepared. The only hamburger I've eaten for years has been home prepared from beef steak mince.My family tends to cook rather than eat ready meals and takeaways which is quite an advantage.

I think there is always something missing from the statements that certain things will kill you. What is left out are the genetic and lifestyle aspects. You might have a greater risk if you are genetically prone to such killers, or have such a lifestyle that creates an added risk. Being way overweight is certainly one of those. My grandfather ate what would now be considered a very unhealthy diet, plenty of animal fat, etc, and smoked from a very young age, but he was never fat and very active all his life. He died aged 88 having hardly had a day's illness in his life. Also bear in mind that life is 100% fatal and there are no certainties. You can live like a monk for years and eat ultra healthily, then trip and fall down the stairs and you're just as dead as if you had lived life to the full.

shivles

I do it for a while every few months just to make sure my calories are in check but I don't fuss over the number forever because it drives me mad. It's a useful tool but its not conclusive, healthy diet is much better than eating crap but counting the calories!

ewrob

I could give up meat easily. Cheese/eggs is another story. No you don't NEED them but they are good for you as long as you buy products with no additives. I go to trader joes or whole foods and get my products from there. I agree a plant based diet is a GREAT choice as long as you know how to get the right nutrition. I tried to go vegan for a while but I could never get more then 20-30g protein a day. I don't like "imitation" Products. Fake cheese, meat and such. It's gross and imagine the fillers in them. Gross.

I try to just stick to moderation and make 75% of my diet plant based. I have been failing recently. LOL Oh well, try try again.

Cheese was also the most difficult thing for me to give up, and I had cheese cravings for weeks.

I do disagree that cheese is good for you, as according to this quickly googled source, one serving of cheddar cheese alone exceeds recommended intake of saturated fats: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/8/2
Also, cheese is about 70% fat.

Eggs don't seem to be much better, one boiled egg has almost 200% RDV for cholesterol, according to this source: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/117/2

I know that I was eating eggs and cheese every day, along with meat in every meal.

For protein, I like to eat foods like nuts, whole wheat pasta, brown rice and legumes.

I also shop at Trader Joe's and Whole Foods, and I think it's great that you make most of your diet plant based. I think that the more plant-based foods you eat, the better off you will be. Good luck!

ewrob

Congratulations on making the right lifestyle choice for you. That's a huge weight loss for a month, many on here will claim you can't keep it up, but I'm more open minded and say good for you, if you can make that work for you that's great. However I'm firmly in the meat and fish camp but that is part of my lifestyle choice though more fruit and veggies are definitely part of my more healthy eating. Personally I can't see the point in trying to make non meat taste like meat so that doesn't tempt me at all. Also I buy my meat from a butcher (and fish from a fishmonger) I've known for years, not a supermarket so I know where it comes from and how it is prepared. The only hamburger I've eaten for years has been home prepared from beef steak mince.My family tends to cook rather than eat ready meals and takeaways which is quite an advantage.

Thank you! I don't expect that I will lose 30 lbs every month, but I do expect that I will lose weight steadily until I reach a healthy weight.

It sounds like you are doing quite well for yourself by choosing foods that are largely natural with minimal processing.

I think there is always something missing from the statements that certain things will kill you. What is left out are the genetic and lifestyle aspects. You might have a greater risk if you are genetically prone to such killers, or have such a lifestyle that creates an added risk. Being way overweight is certainly one of those. My grandfather ate what would now be considered a very unhealthy diet, plenty of animal fat, etc, and smoked from a very young age, but he was never fat and very active all his life. He died aged 88 having hardly had a day's illness in his life. Also bear in mind that life is 100% fatal and there are no certainties. You can live like a monk for years and eat ultra healthily, then trip and fall down the stairs and you're just as dead as if you had lived life to the full.

I don't think the fact that everyone dies should deter us from living healthfully. I'd rather die in my 80s or 90s after living a full life rather than dying in my 50's from heart disease.

It's true that there are many aspects to health. I suspect that your grandfather, whatever he ate, ate fewer processed foods and meat that had largely been raised more healthfully, rather than raised on grain and treated with ammonia to kill the e. coli. I don't believe that consuming meat will kill you per se, but I do believe that the way meat is raised in factory farming today is extremely unhealthful. I also believe that fruits and vegetables are becoming less and less common in most diets today, supplanted by heavily processed foods. People who ate a lot of meat and lived to their 80's probably ate very differently from those of us who eat a lot of meat today.

Cr01502

My grandmother is skinny as a rail and she's 93.

She drinks milk and eats meat everyday.

Cute youtube video though. The guy tells some pretty funny jokes.

Your anecdote lacks validity in comparison to scientific studies on nutrition.

Science huh?

Sounds scary.

"Conclusion. A high intake of dairy fat was associated with a lower risk of central obesity and a low dairy fat intake was associated with a higher risk of central obesity."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23320900

"Dietary patterns characterized by increased dairy consumption have a strong inverse association with IRS among overweight adults and may reduce risk of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11966382


"A comprehensive literature search was undertaken to examine the relationship between dairy consumption and overweight/obesity in prospective cohort studies. A literature search from 1980 through to April 2010 was conducted. Nineteen cohort studies met all the inclusion criteria and were included in the systematic review. Of the 19 cohort studies, 10 were among children and adolescents (aged 2 to 14 years, n = 53 to 12,829, follow-up 8 months to 10 years) and nine among adults (aged 18 to 75 years, n = 248 to 42,696, follow-up 2 years to 12 years). A range of dairy food exposure measures were used. Eight studies (three out of 10 studies involving children and five out of nine studies involving adults) showed a protective association against increasing weight gain (measured in various ways); one reported a significant protective association only among men who were initially overweight; seven reported no effect; one reported an increased risk (among children), and two reported both a decreased and increased risk, depending on the dairy food type. The evidence from prospective cohort studies for a protective effect of dairy consumption on risk of overweight and obesity is suggestive but not consistent, making firm conclusions difficult."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21521450

"The observational evidence does not support the hypothesis that dairy fat or high-fat dairy foods contribute to obesity or cardiometabolic risk, and suggests that high-fat dairy consumption within typical dietary patterns is inversely associated with obesity risk. Although not conclusive, these findings may provide a rationale for future research into the bioactive properties of dairy fat and the impact of bovine feeding practices on the health effects of dairy fat."


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22810464

Like I said. Cute youtube video.

I'll stick with the independent peer reviewed studies for my nutritional info though.

:flowerforyou:

Lupercalia

I'll stick to eating meat, fish, and eggs (I'd say dairy too, but I'm lactarded). I'm so much healthier in every way since giving up my 20 year vegetarian/vegan diet.

PaleoChocolateBear

I feel like sometimes when I read posts and feeds that people are so concerned with calories. Food is not the enemy I don't really focus too much on calories because I'm working out and eating plenty clean. The calories you have to worry about are things like candy chips etc etc normally if you're veggies meats fruits and grains calories shouldn't be too much of as issue.

ewrob

Science huh?

Sounds scary.

"Conclusion. A high intake of dairy fat was associated with a lower risk of central obesity and a low dairy fat intake was associated with a higher risk of central obesity."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23320900

"Dietary patterns characterized by increased dairy consumption have a strong inverse association with IRS among overweight adults and may reduce risk of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11966382


"A comprehensive literature search was undertaken to examine the relationship between dairy consumption and overweight/obesity in prospective cohort studies. A literature search from 1980 through to April 2010 was conducted. Nineteen cohort studies met all the inclusion criteria and were included in the systematic review. Of the 19 cohort studies, 10 were among children and adolescents (aged 2 to 14 years, n = 53 to 12,829, follow-up 8 months to 10 years) and nine among adults (aged 18 to 75 years, n = 248 to 42,696, follow-up 2 years to 12 years). A range of dairy food exposure measures were used. Eight studies (three out of 10 studies involving children and five out of nine studies involving adults) showed a protective association against increasing weight gain (measured in various ways); one reported a significant protective association only among men who were initially overweight; seven reported no effect; one reported an increased risk (among children), and two reported both a decreased and increased risk, depending on the dairy food type. The evidence from prospective cohort studies for a protective effect of dairy consumption on risk of overweight and obesity is suggestive but not consistent, making firm conclusions difficult."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21521450

"The observational evidence does not support the hypothesis that dairy fat or high-fat dairy foods contribute to obesity or cardiometabolic risk, and suggests that high-fat dairy consumption within typical dietary patterns is inversely associated with obesity risk. Although not conclusive, these findings may provide a rationale for future research into the bioactive properties of dairy fat and the impact of bovine feeding practices on the health effects of dairy fat."


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22810464

Like I said. Cute youtube video.

I'll stick with the independent peer reviewed studies for my nutritional info though.

:flowerforyou:

I can quote studies from the same source in support of my view as well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23364007

"Consuming a vegetarian diet was associated with lower IHD risk, a finding that is probably mediated by differences in non-HDL cholesterol, and systolic blood pressure."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23169929

"Vegetarian diets seem to confer protection against cancer. Impact: Vegan diet seems to confer lower risk for overall and female-specific cancer than other dietary patterns. The lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets seem to confer protection from cancers of the gastrointestinal tract."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23107523

"Red meat intake has been frequently associated with the development of coronary artery disease and type 2 diabetes but vegetable protein has been associated with protection from these diseases. Whether this is related to the protein per se or to the increased polyunsaturated fat or higher fibre levels associated with more vegetarian diets is not clear. High protein diets are associated with greater satiety and in some studies are associated with greater weight loss compared with high carbohydrate diets especially in an ad libitum design. These diets also lower plasma triglyceride and blood pressure and sometimes spare lean mass. There appear to be no harmful effects of high protein diets on bone density or renal function in weight loss studies."

And this one too:

http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(05)00279-2/abstract

"Adoption of a low-fat, vegan diet was associated with significant weight loss in overweight postmenopausal women, despite the absence of prescribed limits on portion size or energy intake."

Anyway, since you are more interested in snark than legitimate discussion, that's all the time I'm going to waste on you. I'm not trying to convince closed-minded people such as yourself. You're clearly just here to argue.

Cr01502

Science huh?

Sounds scary.

"Conclusion. A high intake of dairy fat was associated with a lower risk of central obesity and a low dairy fat intake was associated with a higher risk of central obesity."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23320900

"Dietary patterns characterized by increased dairy consumption have a strong inverse association with IRS among overweight adults and may reduce risk of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11966382


"A comprehensive literature search was undertaken to examine the relationship between dairy consumption and overweight/obesity in prospective cohort studies. A literature search from 1980 through to April 2010 was conducted. Nineteen cohort studies met all the inclusion criteria and were included in the systematic review. Of the 19 cohort studies, 10 were among children and adolescents (aged 2 to 14 years, n = 53 to 12,829, follow-up 8 months to 10 years) and nine among adults (aged 18 to 75 years, n = 248 to 42,696, follow-up 2 years to 12 years). A range of dairy food exposure measures were used. Eight studies (three out of 10 studies involving children and five out of nine studies involving adults) showed a protective association against increasing weight gain (measured in various ways); one reported a significant protective association only among men who were initially overweight; seven reported no effect; one reported an increased risk (among children), and two reported both a decreased and increased risk, depending on the dairy food type. The evidence from prospective cohort studies for a protective effect of dairy consumption on risk of overweight and obesity is suggestive but not consistent, making firm conclusions difficult."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21521450

"The observational evidence does not support the hypothesis that dairy fat or high-fat dairy foods contribute to obesity or cardiometabolic risk, and suggests that high-fat dairy consumption within typical dietary patterns is inversely associated with obesity risk. Although not conclusive, these findings may provide a rationale for future research into the bioactive properties of dairy fat and the impact of bovine feeding practices on the health effects of dairy fat."


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22810464

Like I said. Cute youtube video.

I'll stick with the independent peer reviewed studies for my nutritional info though.

:flowerforyou:

I can quote studies from the same source in support of my view as well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23364007

"Consuming a vegetarian diet was associated with lower IHD risk, a finding that is probably mediated by differences in non-HDL cholesterol, and systolic blood pressure."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23169929

"Vegetarian diets seem to confer protection against cancer. Impact: Vegan diet seems to confer lower risk for overall and female-specific cancer than other dietary patterns. The lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets seem to confer protection from cancers of the gastrointestinal tract."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23107523

"Red meat intake has been frequently associated with the development of coronary artery disease and type 2 diabetes but vegetable protein has been associated with protection from these diseases. Whether this is related to the protein per se or to the increased polyunsaturated fat or higher fibre levels associated with more vegetarian diets is not clear. High protein diets are associated with greater satiety and in some studies are associated with greater weight loss compared with high carbohydrate diets especially in an ad libitum design. These diets also lower plasma triglyceride and blood pressure and sometimes spare lean mass. There appear to be no harmful effects of high protein diets on bone density or renal function in weight loss studies."

And this one too:

http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(05)00279-2/abstract

"Adoption of a low-fat, vegan diet was associated with significant weight loss in overweight postmenopausal women, despite the absence of prescribed limits on portion size or energy intake."

Anyway, since you are more interested in snark than legitimate discussion, that's all the time I'm going to waste on you. I'm not trying to convince closed-minded people such as yourself. You're clearly just here to argue.

The first study you quoted is a long term study that didn't take into account other lifestyle habits apart from whether or not they were vegetarian.

Furthermore we could probably both do this back and forth for quite a while as I'm sure we could find relevant studies to support both are claims. It was you who said my 93 year old grandmother was anecdotal evidence and it was you who posted a one sided argument on veganism. I was only pointing out that they're are plenty of studies that say meat and dairy is good for you.

I'm all for eating a diet full of raw foods but the fact that you came on here saying calories don't matter (which in terms of weight loss/ weight gain couldn't be further from the truth) and that you're "unhealthy" if you eat meat or dairy is a little rich. Since there is just as much evidence contradicting your statement as there is supporting it.

jadethief

Hi OP and welcome to MFP

Congratulations on losing 30 lbs and finding an eating lifestyle that you enjoy.


Without looking at your profile I would hazard a guess that you are male and have a significant amount of weight to lose. I suspect that those factors along with this :

The meals I used to eat probably averaged around 900 calories, because that was what it took to make me feel full. Meals that I eat now are generally between 500 and 600 calories, with fruits, vegetables and nuts as snacks. I feel just as full as before, but the difference is that the foods that I am eating are not heavily refined and processed. They are not as nutritionally dense, but I still feel full eating them.

are what are responsible for the weight loss rather than restricting certain foods. It all comes down to "calories in, calories out." By all means, if you prefer not to eat certain foods, that's quite all right. If other people do choose to eat them, then that's quite all right also.

There are many valid and different ways to lose weight. (There's even a rumor going around that some people have obtained rockin' bods eating poptarts and ice cream!) In the end, you have to do what makes sense to you and realize that other people are going to do what makes sense to them. No need to try and convert anyone.

Again, congratulations and continued success on your journey.

Edited for typos

ewrob

The first study you quoted is a long term study that didn't take into account other lifestyle habits apart from whether or not they were vegetarian.

Furthermore we could probably both do this back and forth for quite a while as I'm sure we could find relevant studies to support both are claims. It was you who said my 93 year old grandmother was anecdotal evidence and it was you who posted a one sided argument on veganism. I was only pointing out that they're are plenty of studies that say meat and dairy is good for you.

I'm all for eating a diet full of raw foods but the fact that you came on here saying calories don't matter (which in terms of weight loss/ weight gain couldn't be further from the truth) and that you're "unhealthy" if you eat meat or dairy is a little rich. Since there is just as much evidence contradicting your statement as there is supporting it.

I didn't say that calories don't matter and explicitly acknowledged in my 3rd post that my calorie intake has gone down (while maintaining satiety) To quote my original post:

The meals I used to eat probably averaged around 900 calories, because that was what it took to make me feel full. Meals that I eat now are generally between 500 and 600 calories, with fruits, vegetables and nuts as snacks. I feel just as full as before, but the difference is that the foods that I am eating are not heavily refined and processed. They are not as nutritionally dense, but I still feel full eating them.

My intent with that statement is to communicate that I believe that we can feel as full on fewer calories by eating the right foods, and that if we eat foods that are natural and plant-based rather than processed and calorie dense, eating fewer calories will, in general, be a natural outcome. I believe this is an easier approach to long-term success.

I also didn't promote raw food in my original post. I am not a raw foodist and I eat plenty of cooked meals, like the spaghetti, curry and stir fry that I did mention.

Furthermore, I didn't say (or imply) that you are unhealthy if you eat meat and dairy. What I *did* say is that you do not need animal products. See my original words again:

Our government (for those who like me live in the United States) has been telling us lies for decades that we need these animal products. We need milk for calcium and meat for protein. Dairy and eggs are good for us. It isn't true and it is a conflict of interest that is built right into the USDA's conflicting mandates of promoting public health while simultaneously promoting agribusiness.

I do believe that there is more than one path to healthful eating. I believe that a diet can be healthy if it does include meat. I don't believe that we need meat to be healthy, and I don't believe that food produced by the factory farm system is generally healthful for us. Rather than ridiculing something I didn't even say, I ask that you please take the time to read my words before responding, or else hold your peace.

BlackEyedPanda

I started counting calories only as a "side effect" a week ago.

That's a VERY interesting side effect.

I didn't know veganism did this too people.

Thank you for sharing your story.

:flowerforyou:

Ahh, I mean I am naturally paying far more attention to what I eat now as I am going through a massive lifestyle change and it came as a side effect as I want to keep track of what I eat to make sure I get enough of everything.