Muscle Gain in a Calorie Deficit (I just don't get it)

albertabeefy

I can post some bodpod results that show my weigh loss and muscle gain over the last 4 months. Where I went from 234 pounds (33% body fat) to 213 pounds (21.4% body fat) while adding 13 pounds of lean body mass. While people say it's impossible I strongly disagree. I think it has to do with some other things where in obese or people with higher body can do both.

Just a quick note, that's 10.6lbs of lean-mass gained, not 13. And this is likely due either to the obesity (and associated hyperinsulinemia) at the time being a more-anabolic state than normal-weight dieters, possibly combined with days that were over TDEE in terms of intake.

Also if you watched the biggest loser you will she Danni gained 20 lbs of muscle while drop over 100 lbs for weight. This was verified using DEXA scan

Again, entirely possible - the majority of the untrained contestants put on large amounts of muscle initially. And it's unlikely this individual was below TDEE every single day of those six months of that competition. They would have learned that building muscle requires strength-training, proper protein intake, rest and a slight caloric surplus... Build as much lean mass as possible then diet down for the show, much like any fitness/bodybuilding professional.

ninerbuff

I can post some bodpod results that show my weigh loss and muscle gain over the last 4 months. Where I went from 234 pounds (33% body fat) to 213 pounds (21.4% body fat) while adding 13 pounds of lean body mass. While people say it's impossible I strongly disagree. I think it has to do with some other things where in obese or people with higher body can do both.

Also if you watched the biggest loser you will she Danni gained 20 lbs of muscle while drop over 100 lbs for weight. This was verified using DEXA scan

It wasn't confirmed by Dexa scan. It was mentioned to pump the reality show. Honestly, a female gaining 19lbs of muscle in 8 months is pretty much impossible unless she was juicing. Don't believe everything you read.

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metaphoria

Bumping so I can read it all tomorrow.

ninerbuff

What we're not covering here is that actual "use" of any/all protein intake used to ONLY build muscle. If the calorie deficit is large enough, I'm sure the body will convert some of the protein to energy to compensate for the lower calories. If that's the case, then it would explain why people on calorie deficits have hardly any muscle hypertrophy at all.
And weight loss doesn't only apply to body fat alone. Basically LBM is lost along with fat in calorie deficit as is fat is gained with muscle in calorie surplus.

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albertabeefy

It wasn't confirmed by Dexa scan. It was mentioned to pump the reality show. Honestly, a female gaining 19lbs of muscle in 8 months is pretty much impossible unless she was juicing. Don't believe everything you read.

Thanks for that, I was trying to do the math based on evidences I've seen, and although moderate gains on a continued caloric deficit (especially for the untrained and even more-significantly for the morbidly obese) always seem possible, the amount claimed didn't reconcile with the data I've seen.

Jessi_Brooks

Bumping to read later.

DebHutton55

Bump. Too late to read. Very interesting, though.

FoodandFitness

These subjects were obese and untrained. When you're starting off completely new and obese, it is possible to build a bit of muscle. Nothing really significant. Over time a calorie deficit are not yield a net build in lean mass.

LBNOakland

From an understanding the physiology point of view, this is an interesting discussion. From a practical, what should I be doing to get results point of view, these discussions always strike me as somewhat of a waste of time. The bottom line is, in deficit or even at maintenance, the muscle gains will be minimal. And, either way, if you want to keep the muscle tissue you have or build more, weight training is crucial. In the same article Lyle calls attempting to gain muscle while in a deficit "spinning your wheels".

"Which is why a lot of the approaches advocated for ‘gaining muscle while losing fat’ aren’t very effective. In fact, I’d tend to argue that most people’s attempts to achieve the above results in them simply spinning their wheels, making no progress towards either goal. Because invariably they set up a situation where neither training nor diet is optimized for either fat loss or muscle gain. Calories are too high for fat loss and too low to support muscle gains and outside of that one overfat beginner situation, the physiology simply isn’t going to readily allow what they want to happen to happen."

Recommendation? JUST WORK OUT!

I need more! I am "working out". SHould I continue to work out and go Low cal and get rid of the fat first THEN focus on building muuscle? If I am spinning my wheels at a slight deficit, maybe I should go for broke with a VLCD then. Because eating at a surplus while trying to lose weight just seems so wrong! I need to lose 70 pounds! Many of those advocating "In Place of a Road Map" and "Eat More to Weigh Less" don't seem to have that much weight to lose. I tried eating at 1800-2000 cals and plateaued for a month. I went down to 1500-1800 cals and lost 2 lbs immediately. Frustrated and impatient am I!! :grumble:

HELP!

albertabeefy

I need more! I am "working out". SHould I continue to work out and go Low cal and get rid of the fat first THEN focus on building muuscle?

That *is* conventional wisdom, the most common expert-recommendation, and (anecdotally) what works for most people, yes.

If I am spinning my wheels at a slight deficit, maybe I should go for broke with a VLCD then. Because eating at a surplus while trying to lose weight just seems so wrong! I need to lose 70 pounds! Many of those advocating "In Place of a Road Map" and "Eat More to Weigh Less" don't seem to have that much weight to lose. I tried eating at 1800-2000 cals and plateaued for a month. I went down to 1500-1800 cals and lost 2 lbs immediately. Frustrated and impatient am I!! :grumble:

HELP!

Without a metabolic disorder there's no reason to go to a VLCD with only 70lbs to lose - it would be better to simply eat less than your TDEE but more than your BMR. VLCD (very low calorie diets) - while sometimes being an effective overall weight-loss method - often result in a much-greater loss of lean body mass than conventional diets with a more-moderate deficit. Eating a 500 calorie a day deficit while remaining above your BMR - in conjunction with strength training - is the most effective for weight-loss while maintaining lean mass.

You can always raise your TDEE with exercise - preferably daily - and retain your current lean mass by strength-training. What works well for many people is 3 days of strength training per week, 3 days of cardio/HIIT/step-class/whatever per week and 1 day of rest.

Even light exercise is great ... I literally started at 2 minutes a day and gradually increased to be able to do 60-90 minutes a day easily. We all start somewhere, and just don't progress without starting!

LBNOakland

You can always raise your TDEE with exercise - preferably daily - and retain your current lean mass by strength-training. What works well for many people is 3 days of strength training per week, 3 days of cardio/HIIT/step-class/whatever per week and 1 day of rest.

Even light exercise is great ... I literally started at 2 minutes a day and gradually increased to be able to do 60-90 minutes a day easily. We all start somewhere, and just don't progress without starting!

I lift 3 days a week and do HIIT 2 days a week for about 30 minutes. I do move. I am able to go an hour on the ellptical but find I get a great workout with HIIT for half the time. I also walk 3 miles a day 3 -5 tiems a week - have been for about 10 years. I am working with a strength coach. He isn't concerned with the nutrition. He thinks I should eat Paleo but that doesn't fit with my lifestyle. He sees inches coming off but I feel stalled. So I keep waffling between just going for broke with fat loss or plodding on in this way. :frown:

RatherBeFishing

I can post some bodpod results that show my weigh loss and muscle gain over the last 4 months. Where I went from 234 pounds (33% body fat) to 213 pounds (21.4% body fat) while adding 13 pounds of lean body mass. While people say it's impossible I strongly disagree. I think it has to do with some other things where in obese or people with higher body can do both.

Also if you watched the biggest loser you will she Danni gained 20 lbs of muscle while drop over 100 lbs for weight. This was verified using DEXA scan

It wasn't confirmed by Dexa scan. It was mentioned to pump the reality show. Honestly, a female gaining 19lbs of muscle in 8 months is pretty much impossible unless she was juicing. Don't believe everything you read.

A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

It was confirm by the DEXA scan if you watched the show. They even showed the DEXA scan. Also my bodpod results show the same increase in lean body mass while dropping weight, this was after I had been lifting and dieting for 6 months before I had my first test. Even Lyle McDonald has explain that people with a higher body fat % can do this. I think everyone like to use studies for people that are highly trained, that is not what the people that come here are most are just beginning their journey.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

There are a handful of situations where the combination of muscle gain and fat loss occur relatively readily. The first of those is in overfat beginners. I want to really stress the term overfat in the above sentence. This phenomenon doesn’t happen in lean beginners for reasons I’m going to explain in a second.

RatherBeFishing

I can post some bodpod results that show my weigh loss and muscle gain over the last 4 months. Where I went from 234 pounds (33% body fat) to 213 pounds (21.4% body fat) while adding 13 pounds of lean body mass. While people say it's impossible I strongly disagree. I think it has to do with some other things where in obese or people with higher body can do both.

Just a quick note, that's 10.6lbs of lean-mass gained, not 13. And this is likely due either to the obesity (and associated hyperinsulinemia) at the time being a more-anabolic state than normal-weight dieters, possibly combined with days that were over TDEE in terms of intake.

Also if you watched the biggest loser you will she Danni gained 20 lbs of muscle while drop over 100 lbs for weight. This was verified using DEXA scan

Again, entirely possible - the majority of the untrained contestants put on large amounts of muscle initially. And it's unlikely this individual was below TDEE every single day of those six months of that competition. They would have learned that building muscle requires strength-training, proper protein intake, rest and a slight caloric surplus... Build as much lean mass as possible then diet down for the show, much like any fitness/bodybuilding professional.

I guess when I post I should give more exact numbers. I went from 155.2 FFM at 230.6 lbs and 32.7% bodyfat on Nov 26 2012, to 167.6 LBM at 213.2 lbs and 21.4% bodyfat on 29 March 2013. The point was it is possible, and as far as the calories increase maybe once every other weekend I would increase my calories but for the most part I was eating 1500-1800 cals a day. Plus I will admit I was obese, but not anywhere near the point when I started a year ago at 290+ lbs.

ninerbuff

I can post some bodpod results that show my weigh loss and muscle gain over the last 4 months. Where I went from 234 pounds (33% body fat) to 213 pounds (21.4% body fat) while adding 13 pounds of lean body mass. While people say it's impossible I strongly disagree. I think it has to do with some other things where in obese or people with higher body can do both.

Also if you watched the biggest loser you will she Danni gained 20 lbs of muscle while drop over 100 lbs for weight. This was verified using DEXA scan

It wasn't confirmed by Dexa scan. It was mentioned to pump the reality show. Honestly, a female gaining 19lbs of muscle in 8 months is pretty much impossible unless she was juicing. Don't believe everything you read.

A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

It was confirm by the DEXA scan if you watched the show. They even showed the DEXA scan. Also my bodpod results show the same increase in lean body mass while dropping weight, this was after I had been lifting and dieting for 6 months before I had my first test. Even Lyle McDonald has explain that people with a higher body fat % can do this. I think everyone like to use studies for people that are highly trained, that is not what the people that come here are most are just beginning their journey.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

There are a handful of situations where the combination of muscle gain and fat loss occur relatively readily. The first of those is in overfat beginners. I want to really stress the term overfat in the above sentence. This phenomenon doesn’t happen in lean beginners for reasons I’m going to explain in a second.

I'm well aware of morbidly obese/obese people who use a progressive strength regimen of gaining some muscle, but in reality (pun intended) you can't rely on a reality show to tell you the truth. Especially one that gets edited since it's not live. Think carefully for a minute. Someone who's morbidly obese already is "carrying" some muscle already (with the exception of bed ridden people) since it takes some strength to move that weight around. Most of it will be in their legs, which is why a lot of them have pretty big calves and strong looking legs on the finale. But you can still see a pretty good weight loss in the lower body. Now do some math. IF Danni gained 19lbs in 8 months, that's at a rate of 2lbs a month. If you've ever seen what 19lbs of muscle looks like on a lean female (especially in the upper body), she should have been looking like a competitive bodybuilder. 19lbs translates to13% of her body weight (she ended up at 137lbs in the finale). Based on her pics, I don't see her less than 20% body fat, so that would put her LBM at about 109lbs. Subtract 19lbs from that and you're going to tell me her lean body mass (without the 19lbs of muscle gained) started at 90lbs? Carrying 258lbs everyday in the beginning? The numbers don't add up.

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albertabeefy

Now do some math. IF Danni gained 19lbs in 8 months, that's at a rate of 2lbs a month. If you've ever seen what 19lbs of muscle looks like on a lean female (especially in the upper body), she should have been looking like a competitive bodybuilder. 19lbs translates to13% of her body weight (she ended up at 137lbs in the finale). Based on her pics, I don't see her less than 20% body fat, so that would put her LBM at about 109lbs. Subtract 19lbs from that and you're going to tell me her lean body mass (without the 19lbs of muscle gained) started at 90lbs? Carrying 258lbs everyday in the beginning? The numbers don't add up.

A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Excellent analysis. If you go back and look at the show, she had been - since day one - the strongest female in the group, and one of the most athletic of all of them. There's no way she had only 90lbs of lean mass with the strength and athleticism she presented with.

Ampierce

Bump for later read

tigersword

I can post some bodpod results that show my weigh loss and muscle gain over the last 4 months. Where I went from 234 pounds (33% body fat) to 213 pounds (21.4% body fat) while adding 13 pounds of lean body mass. While people say it's impossible I strongly disagree. I think it has to do with some other things where in obese or people with higher body can do both.

Also if you watched the biggest loser you will she Danni gained 20 lbs of muscle while drop over 100 lbs for weight. This was verified using DEXA scan

Like I have already mentioned in a previous post, lean mass does not equal muscle. Glycogen and water are both considered lean mass. People who exercise intensely will see increases in glycogen storage, which also increases water storage, as their body adapts to the exercise and activity levels. This leads to LBM increases, but is not an increase in muscle.

And DEXA scans actually only measure bone vs not bone, they estimate everything else, so it would be impossible to even hazard a guess as to the actual body composition changes from a DEXA scan alone.