What do we really know about cave men (and women)?
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mahanaibu
Posts: 505 Member
I'm not looking to put down the Paleo (or any other) diet. Anything that works for my fellow health seekers is great. I just want to raise a question about evolution because I see so many posts that say we evolved to eat this or that.
My question is, how do we know that what was optimal for survival of cave people is optimal for us? Cave people didn't live very long; the key to life, for them, was living to the point where they could have children and raise those children to the point of being able to take care of themselves. Very long life might even have been counter-productive. Sure, the elders could provide some wisdom from things they had experienced that would help younger people, but having too many elders would harm the clan or tribe because they mostly consumed resources without contributing them.
So it could be that the cave diet was optimal for a fairly short but productive life, rather than the very long llife that we now seek. They didn't worry too much about eating to avoid heart disease or cancer because they didn't tend to live long enough to experience those diseases.
Like I said, that's not to criticize the Paleo or any other diet; it doesn't mean they don't work. But the reasons they work might not have anything to do with assumptions about how we're "naturally" meant to eat. Animals evolve pretty quickly. Not too long after the cave days, Northern Europeans evolved to digest lactose without problems. When men became farmers, a certain set of wolves evolved to eat grains as well as meat--they were the wolves who wanted easy pickings from men's garbage, and the ones who could digest the grains that tended to be in the garbage were the ones who would survive and pass on their genes. What we think of as natural might not actually be optimal.
My question is, how do we know that what was optimal for survival of cave people is optimal for us? Cave people didn't live very long; the key to life, for them, was living to the point where they could have children and raise those children to the point of being able to take care of themselves. Very long life might even have been counter-productive. Sure, the elders could provide some wisdom from things they had experienced that would help younger people, but having too many elders would harm the clan or tribe because they mostly consumed resources without contributing them.
So it could be that the cave diet was optimal for a fairly short but productive life, rather than the very long llife that we now seek. They didn't worry too much about eating to avoid heart disease or cancer because they didn't tend to live long enough to experience those diseases.
Like I said, that's not to criticize the Paleo or any other diet; it doesn't mean they don't work. But the reasons they work might not have anything to do with assumptions about how we're "naturally" meant to eat. Animals evolve pretty quickly. Not too long after the cave days, Northern Europeans evolved to digest lactose without problems. When men became farmers, a certain set of wolves evolved to eat grains as well as meat--they were the wolves who wanted easy pickings from men's garbage, and the ones who could digest the grains that tended to be in the garbage were the ones who would survive and pass on their genes. What we think of as natural might not actually be optimal.
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Replies
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What we know about cavemen is that they would have loved to eat candy bars, bacon, bread and birthday cake. That's for sure.0
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Also, they really, really liked caves.0
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...and they didn't have to worry about filing their taxes. :grumble:0
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And if The Flintstones have taught us anything, they used wisecracking animals as household (cavehold?) gadgets.0
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...and they didn't have to worry about filing their taxes. :grumble:
You had to remind me, didn't you? Slinking off to my cave now.0 -
...that they were hot?0
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I completely agree with you- you've stated it very well. I find it shocking that people would adopt a paleo (or anything like that) diet where they add MORE meat, and think that they're being healthier. There are direct, heavily studied links between red meat consumption and many cancers, heart disease, early death, and a host of other issues. There was a long-term study published in late 2012 that said each and every serving of red meat you eat reduces your life expectancy- period. basically, there is no "healthy" amount of red meat- even in moderation, it is very bad for you. Grass-fed and organic are bad too, even though they're better than the conventional antibiotic-and-hormone-filled crap.
I don't think poultry is very good for you either; I'm just using the red meat example because it is the most well-researched. Organic, free-range chicken might be okay sometimes I guess, but standard chicken in the U.S. is disgusting and horrible for you- eww hormones! talk about a cancer-causing food!
The fact that caveman diets don't let you eat some nuts, lentils, beans, and healthy grains is so backwards. Makes no sense from a nutritionist perspective. [I'm in med school with a heavy interest in nutrition, so that's my background]
in case you're wondering- I eat a pescetarian diet. It's "nearly"-vegetarian but I do eat some fish. I try eat sustainable, low-mercury fish as much as possible...but I do love tuna and shrimp occasionally, which are awful for the environment. sad. I'm not perfect!0 -
I completely agree with you- you've stated it very well. I find it shocking that people would adopt a paleo (or anything like that) diet where they add MORE meat, and think that they're being healthier. There are direct, heavily studied links between red meat consumption and many cancers, heart disease, early death, and a host of other issues. There was a long-term study published in late 2012 that said each and every serving of red meat you eat reduces your life expectancy- period. basically, there is no "healthy" amount of red meat- even in moderation, it is very bad for you. Grass-fed and organic are bad too, even though they're better than the conventional antibiotic-and-hormone-filled crap.
I don't think poultry is very good for you either; I'm just using the red meat example because it is the most well-researched. Organic, free-range chicken might be okay sometimes I guess, but standard chicken in the U.S. is disgusting and horrible for you- eww hormones! talk about a cancer-causing food!
The fact that caveman diets don't let you eat some nuts, lentils, beans, and healthy grains is so backwards. Makes no sense from a nutritionist perspective. [I'm in med school with a heavy interest in nutrition, so that's my background]
in case you're wondering- I eat a pescetarian diet. It's "nearly"-vegetarian but I do eat some fish. I try eat sustainable, low-mercury fish as much as possible...but I do love tuna and shrimp occasionally, which are awful for the environment. sad. I'm not perfect!
here's something you don't see every day... a vegetarian posting about how awful meat is.
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Everyone dies. Some people will snort wheatgrass and mainline legumes before they die of lymphoma at 35 and other people will eat steak and cigarettes 3 meals a day and live to be 100. Diet and exercise can help us to have more comfortable bodies and prevent some diseases but most of our health is beyond our control. Eat noms, die happy.0
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I'm pretty sure getting laid was alot easier for cavemen too.
They probably didn't have to do nearly as much wooing as men do nowadays.0 -
I'm pretty sure getting laid was alot easier for cavemen too.
They probably didn't have to do nearly as much wooing as men do nowadays.
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Instead of hitting on women at the club they hit them over the head with a club, which I can say from experience, is a LOT more effective.0
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they didn't shave very often.
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People live so much longer now, but what is the quality of life for many elderly people? What's so great about living to be 90+ if you lose you mind, wear diapers and need constant care?0
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I'm pretty sure getting laid was alot easier for cavemen too.
They probably didn't have to do nearly as much wooing as men do nowadays.
Truth. Or manscaping before hand.0 -
People live so much longer now, but what is the quality of life for many elderly people? What's so great about living to be 90+ if you lose you mind, wear diapers and need constant care?
You get 90+ years of not eating birthday cake or enjoying beer.0 -
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People live so much longer now, but what is the quality of life for many elderly people? What's so great about living to be 90+ if you lose you mind, wear diapers and need constant care?
You get 90+ years of not eating birthday cake or enjoying beer.
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Instead of hitting on women at the club they hit them over the head with a club, which I can say from experience, is a LOT more effective.
But we also have roofies these days. Much less effort than swinging a club.
But you still have to buy a drink. :grumble:0
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