Obesity and poverty...
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This is a tangent, so I'll be brief. If you'd like to discuss this further, we can start a new topic. Part of the issue is that if you polled any 10 advocates of "clean eating" on MFP, you'd likely get 5 or more definitions of what it means to "eat clean." A term that is as broadly defined as that isn't especially helpful to a discussion, and most attempts to define it more clearly boil down to personal preference and debates about which particular studies are reputable or disreputable, with each study having its own supporters.When will people understand that processed and "unclean" foods don't cause weight gain, an excess of calories does. In 98% of the posts in this thread and on the whole forum all I see are these claims about clean eating. Living on cheap fast foods DOESN'T cause obesity, however, eating 4000 calories when you need 2000 to maintain your weight WILL.
With all do respect, and please understand I am not snarking you in any way, but why do people keep saying this on MFP? A calorie, is a calorie is a calorie and the like?
I've only been on here a few days and it repeats itself like a very bad mantra. Unclean food won't make you get weight, yes, I understand the arithmetic here, but its presented as though everybody are immortals on this board and as if coronary disease, hypertension and diabetes are non factors of eating unclean. Maybe its premature of me to make this assessment but I'm starting to feel if I dive deeper in the MFP archives, I'm going to see more of this. This is not just a fallacy, its dangerous. Please don't take offense because I mean none to you.0 -
I absolutely agree! There is definitely a link between the two. I think people need to stop blaming and use that energy to think of solutions.0
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The ubiquitous presumption of access to a car is interesting in these discussions of "poverty," I think. There's also the notion that the "care-giver" isn't a combination of the school system (already discussed at length in the thread) and a sibling old enough to be trusted with any required babysitting duties, or an older relative who grew up on fried foods and feeds them the only way s/he knows, as is the case with a lot of impoverished families.
If you're the sole breadwinner in a single-parent house dealing with poverty, and work 17 hours a day in order to provide for your family, is it still "laziness" to buy less healthy foods that don't take 15 minutes and more to prepare, rather than the potatoes and hamburgers (sorely lacking in any vegetables or fruits, incidentally) suggested here?If you spent $3 on a cheeseburger, fries and a coke at McDonald's you have gotten yourself a kid's meal which would have more calories, less nutrition than one of there $6 salads. I think what it boils down to is laziness. Yes it is easier to swing through a drive through, but if you buy a pound of hamburger meat ($3.50), some buns (usually can find on sale for $1 for 8), a sack of potatoes ($3) you can cook all of it yourself and have left over food for what it would cost to feed a family of four at McDonald's.
That depends. How long does it take you to get through the McDonald's drive thru?
I know it's not easy on everyone, and for some people, like the single parent who works that much, it is hard. I was just talking about cost efficiency, not time or even the food pyramid for that matter. Hopefully, said parent would have care-givers for their children who give a crap and can help instill healthy habits.0 -
I will give a perspective from someone on foodstamps.
I agree with 100% about money is the reason for obesity, along with education. If you don't know better you can't do better.
But honestly. I have a family of 3, and for an entire month I get $85 dollars. I get WIC as well, and they give me ten dollars in fresh fruit. I recently bought a bag of grapes (and I had to take some out, like, half the bag) and 3 plums. For $10. It's very VERY tough to get by on what we have and a lot of the time, I can't choose the healthiest choices because I simply cannot afford it.
And this is where I get ticked off. Now it has been awhile since I have received WIC, my youngest is 15. They give you all this money for milk, cheese, and not fruit (they did not do that back then), but the cereal! Sugar in a bowl. My middle child has special health issues. When they saw her what I was feeding her, they said they may have to stop giving me help because I was feeding her too well! WHAT? because I can make pancakes from scratch? Because I knew about nutrition and was doing my best. WIC can be good but it needs to do better.
You can feed your kids on a tight budget. You can make burrito's healthy and with very little money. Same with pancakes you can make them healthier and with very little money. And the good thing with both of them is they FREEZE!! I love foods that freeze well because you can make them in bulk. Go to the local butcher (if you have one) or evn the local grocery store early in the morning. They often have marked down meat because it is too old to sell at full price but safe to eat or freeze. I often get ground pork for 1.50 or less a pound. It makes some nice meatballs or hamburgers, even meat for the burritos. I know it is very frustrating. But with a little work it can be done. If I did you I promise you can do it. The key is making stuff, that can be frozen from scratch. This means taking a weekend, if you don't work, and making it a cooking weekednd. The kids can help.
Good luck0 -
Among men, obesity prevalence is generally similar at all income levels
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There is no significant trend between obesity and education among men.
I can well imagine that this may come as a surprise to many.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/964323-salt-sugar-fat-how-the-food-giants-hooked-us?page=3#posts-14723231
I wasnt hooked by anybody because I know better.
People need to stop blaming the food giants and blame themselves0 -
Among men, obesity prevalence is generally similar at all income levels
...
There is no significant trend between obesity and education among men.
I can well imagine that this may come as a surprise to many.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/964323-salt-sugar-fat-how-the-food-giants-hooked-us?page=3#posts-14723231
I wasnt hooked by anybody because I know better.
People need to stop blaming the food giants and blame themselves
I don't like to blame the food industry. Because I can chose not to go. When my kids were smaller "Inspector Gadget" was big. McDonald's had pieces of him every week. Of course, they wanted to go every week. We used a magic word. NO. I chose what I do and do not put in my body. It is sad that the food industry does use manipulative ingredients and advertisement. However, in the end it is a choice.
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That is an excellent point. In this country, it is way too affordable to eat crappy, processed, high fat, high sugar foods. It is harder to eat whole fruits and veggies, and other real food. It's a real shame...0
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How is that NOT a form of child abuse?0 -
As someone who grew up damn poor but managed to claw my way out, get some schooling and now live a semi-middle class life, eating clean was the last thing on my mind and the minds of my parents. Maybe I'm wrong but our family drama was out there for the world to see - alcoholism, mental illness, unstable home and work life (for my parents). Growing up in a small town - you knew who had the issues with booze, craziness and drugs. It never seemed that the middle class families had these issues or hid it pretty well.
I read that a Kentucky (?) lawmaker wanted to tie academic performance of kids whose families receive aid - if the kid failed or underperformed, the family would lose their food stamps. I totally see that working.... :grumble: A kid who is already stressed and likely struggling with school due to lacking resources is now responsible for keeping the family's hunger at bay. No pressure there.0 -
As someone who grew up damn poor but managed to claw my way out, get some schooling and now live a semi-middle class life, eating clean was the last thing on my mind and the minds of my parents. Maybe I'm wrong but our family drama was out there for the world to see - alcoholism, mental illness, unstable home and work life (for my parents). Growing up in a small town - you knew who had the issues with booze, craziness and drugs. It never seemed that the middle class families had these issues or hid it pretty well.
I read that a Kentucky (?) lawmaker wanted to tie academic performance of kids whose families receive aid - if the kid failed or underperformed, the family would lose their food stamps. I totally see that working.... :grumble: A kid who is already stressed and likely struggling with school due to lacking resources is now responsible for keeping the family's hunger at bay. No pressure there.
Yeah yeah, I heard this shtick on The Daily Show.
Your solution is to change nothing. Great plan.0 -
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I have a hard time reading this as anything other than fat shaming for kids.0 -
Well said :flowerforyou: My mother was and has always been thin. We ate the same foods and she even fixed my plate for me but I was a FAT kid. When my kids were little I asked the department of health what I should feed my child after the baby food stage. Big mistake in their answer to me, "Whatever you eat"!!!!!!!!!!!! I was eating hamburger helper for dinner with no veggies and out to eat stuff because up to that point we both worked and didn't know how to cook. My children are teens and sadly overweight. We exercise together and try to eat right but when we get busy with life we hit the drive thru. The cost of fruits and veggies are very high and so is lean meat! We don't eat many processed foods when cooking at home. I'm still trying to learn and help my kids. When I was sixteen I went on a starvation diet and got down to a size zero but that wasn't healthy and I didn't learn a thing about nutrition. The smallest I've been since giving birth to my second child is size 16. I would love to see everyone in our household back in the 100's. I want to make sure my kids know more than I did when they get out on their own. I've lost the same 40 lbs so many times I've stopped counting. My big debate now is to have bread or not? I'm trying to learn how to eat right not just lose the weight because it just comes right back when you start back on the breads and pasta. My hubby is a diabetic so we CAN'T cut out carbs for his sake. Also my doctor said adkins is very hard on the heart. Okay I'm finished with my book here except to say that the parents of obese children did not want things to turn out that way. Also buying in bulk around obese children is not a smart idea because they have no brakes when it comes to hunger. We can only shop 1-3 days in advance max which is another reason we often hit the drive thru if we get busy because if I buy a bunch they will get up and eat at night.
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I have a hard time reading this as anything other than fat shaming for kids.
I saw it as fat shaming PARENTS.0 -
The parents aren't pictured, though, and multiple posts in this thread and others (not necessarily those by TheWiseCat) talk about personal responsibility for weight beginning before adulthood. So, from my perspective, it's telling the kids it's their fault their fat, and shaming/scaring them to make a change.
I have a hard time reading this as anything other than fat shaming for kids.
I saw it as fat shaming PARENTS.0 -
I have a hard time reading this as anything other than fat shaming for kids.
I saw it as fat shaming PARENTS.
Me too.0 -
I think there are many factors but nutrition education and fiscal responsibility are key.
I have a friend with one child who receives $500/mos in stamps. I am not sure how nor do I want to know. She buys nothing but Little Debbie cakes, soda, and lunch-able type items. She has more than enough to buy healthy foods.
I live on $25 a week for groceries and do fine. That is a 52 week average as I buy in bulk and freeze what I can to preserve. This also includes my splurges for the random pizza or chickfila. I made a budget of what I could afford and found a way (coupons, Sam's membership, BOGO sales, etc.) to reach that goal.0 -
I recently went to a talk about food security. Basically, it talked about the ability of people living at or below the poverty level, and their ability to feed themselves and their families. Basically what it came down to is this: if a single mother with two kids is on income assistance, she receives $1124 a month.
Now by my calculations:
Monthly income: $1124
Rent: $ 700
Basic telephone/cable: $ 65
Electricity: $ 40
Bus passes $ 122
So that leaves Mom with $197 a month to feed herself and her two kids. That's $49.25 a week, or $7.04 a day.
Where I live, 4 liters of milk costs $7.49. A 2 liter of pop is $1.49. A loaf of bread costs $2.29. A box of Kraft dinner is $1.09.
In this lecture, they talked about the "basic food basket" which is the food that one would need to buy to follow Canada's food guide for healthy eating. The cost in our community to meet those basic requirements was over $80/week for this hypothetical mother and her two kids.
If a parent is trying to feed herself and her kids on less than $50 a week, of course they are going to eat a lot of boxed meals.
Another issue addressed was the fact that in the cycle of poverty, a lot of times parents just don't know or have the skills to prepare healthful meals, so even though you might be able to cook a healthy stew for $15 that would feed them for three days, Mom might not have the skills or the tools available.
So my point, after this rather long post, is that I do agree, poverty certainly plays a role.
If she's on welfare, she's getting rental assistance, heating assistance, a free cell phone (cable isn't a need), and if she NEEDS it for education/training, a bus pass (otherwise it's not a "need.") She's also getting SNAP (food stamps) which should be around $300 per month, more in some states.
The real key is to stop allowing Food Stamps to be used for junk. They should be used for what they were originally intended for, supplementing a food budget to allow for the poor to put fresh fruit and vegetables and lean meats on the table. The purchase of junk food should be specifically excluded for food stamps.0 -
Getting one form of assistance in no way assures that you'll get another form of assistance. It is entirely possible to be on welfare or disability and turned down for all the other programs.I recently went to a talk about food security. Basically, it talked about the ability of people living at or below the poverty level, and their ability to feed themselves and their families. Basically what it came down to is this: if a single mother with two kids is on income assistance, she receives $1124 a month.
Now by my calculations:
Monthly income: $1124
Rent: $ 700
Basic telephone/cable: $ 65
Electricity: $ 40
Bus passes $ 122
So that leaves Mom with $197 a month to feed herself and her two kids. That's $49.25 a week, or $7.04 a day.
Where I live, 4 liters of milk costs $7.49. A 2 liter of pop is $1.49. A loaf of bread costs $2.29. A box of Kraft dinner is $1.09.
In this lecture, they talked about the "basic food basket" which is the food that one would need to buy to follow Canada's food guide for healthy eating. The cost in our community to meet those basic requirements was over $80/week for this hypothetical mother and her two kids.
If a parent is trying to feed herself and her kids on less than $50 a week, of course they are going to eat a lot of boxed meals.
Another issue addressed was the fact that in the cycle of poverty, a lot of times parents just don't know or have the skills to prepare healthful meals, so even though you might be able to cook a healthy stew for $15 that would feed them for three days, Mom might not have the skills or the tools available.
So my point, after this rather long post, is that I do agree, poverty certainly plays a role.
If she's on welfare, she's getting rental assistance, heating assistance, a free cell phone (cable isn't a need), and if she NEEDS it for education/training, a bus pass (otherwise it's not a "need.") She's also getting SNAP (food stamps) which should be around $300 per month, more in some states.0 -
Getting one form of assistance in no way assures that you'll get another form of assistance. It is entirely possible to be on welfare or disability and turned down for all the other programs.
Anyone getting cash welfare is automatically getting all of those others except possible Section 8. They are also getting medicaid. That's a given.
Welfare and SSDI/SSI are not the same thing.0 -
Personal experiences to the contrary, this is off topic regarding obesity, so I'll drop it.Getting one form of assistance in no way assures that you'll get another form of assistance. It is entirely possible to be on welfare or disability and turned down for all the other programs.
Anyone getting cash welfare is automatically getting all of those others except possible Section 8. They are also getting medicaid. That's a given.
Welfare and SSDI/SSI are not the same thing.0 -
Let's just blame society and get back to the fun of working out. ;-)0
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Well, let's hope that it's not too presumptuous to say, if you cannot afford a car or a care-giver, McDonald's would probably be out of the budget also. Continue picking it apart any how you like. What I said is, to paraphrase, it is more cost efficient to buy the groceries to make a hamburger and fries at home than it is to feed a family at McDonald's. I stand by that because it is the truth. If you or someone you know is in such dire straits as you have whittled it down to, then there are programs out there to assist you (or them) in your (or their) time of need.0
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Getting one form of assistance in no way assures that you'll get another form of assistance. It is entirely possible to be on welfare or disability and turned down for all the other programs.
Anyone getting cash welfare is automatically getting all of those others except possible Section 8. They are also getting medicaid. That's a given.
Since most Medicaid laws are state laws, this will vary state to state. In many states, it's very hard to get a Welfare check (assuming that's what you mean by "cash") these days. You can get SNAP for food, clothing vouchers for back-to-school clothes, rent vouchers, assistance with utilities, but most states have pretty strict restrictions on just handing out money to spent as you like, if they offer it at all.
So, if you meet those strict criteria for a check, it is likely you'll also meet the criteria for other state assistance. But not necessarily vice versa.0 -
As someone who actually came from a poverty-stricken background, allow me to shed a little light on a lot of people's situation. I'm not going to give my opinion on the topic itself, just some information for other people to consider before they do. If you haven't been horribly poor you really do not have any idea of how to guess what you'd do in the situation.
1) Sometimes your family has no way to get to a grocery store often, so you shop at what's nearby, usually at convenience stores. Most convenience stores do not sell fruits and vegetables, only non-perishable items. Sometimes the nearest grocery store sucks, and you can't afford any better.
1.5) When you have little money, you want your food to feed many mouths and/or last a long time. With most perishables being at a week or so, the incentive to buy is very low.
2) Sometimes there is literally no yard or even a patio/balcony. You are apartment 15F in a 20-story building full of people just like you. No one is doing any gardening.
2.5) No grocery store owner in is right mind wants to open a grocery store in your neighborhood because he doesn't want to be robbed, or have people steal his merchandise.
3) Your live with your mother who works 2 jobs.
4) Your dad pays no child support and doesn't pick you up to have dinner or go to the park for a run.
5) When your mom wants to make you smile, she buys you candy and "treats". The neighbors give you candy and treats, too, because you and your friends are good kids, and candy is cheap.
6) You're not taught nutrition in school. You go to a school that sucks because it gets almost no funding because the students do poorly on their tests, and your teacher spends half the day disciplining other students. He or she spends one third of the school year preparing you for standardized tests that most students will fail.
6.5) Schools themselves are serving students things that are not healthful. Pizza (recently deemed a vegetable in the US, by the way) tater tots, and brown meat served with instant potatoes isn't setting the best example.
7) People in poverty usually have very little education. Don't assume they should know they need to eat healthier.
8) They are raised to keep hunger away (just as our public school food system continues to model), not to be nutritionally balanced. Think of comfort foods, and remember why they bring comfort. They're filling and swimming in salt and butter or grease, and they make you feel good.
9) Your brain associates hunger with stress. Your mom can't afford to buy a better car, a couch that has all 4 legs and no rips in it, a coffee maker to replace her old one, but she will be damned if she can't feed you and you have to feel what she felt when she was a hungry little kid living just like you do now.
Thank you for bringing some humanity into this thread.
And, as well as some humanity, some actual experience with the condition that most of us, mercifully, have never experienced.0 -
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As someone who grew up damn poor but managed to claw my way out, get some schooling and now live a semi-middle class life, eating clean was the last thing on my mind and the minds of my parents. Maybe I'm wrong but our family drama was out there for the world to see - alcoholism, mental illness, unstable home and work life (for my parents). Growing up in a small town - you knew who had the issues with booze, craziness and drugs. It never seemed that the middle class families had these issues or hid it pretty well.
I read that a Kentucky (?) lawmaker wanted to tie academic performance of kids whose families receive aid - if the kid failed or underperformed, the family would lose their food stamps. I totally see that working.... :grumble: A kid who is already stressed and likely struggling with school due to lacking resources is now responsible for keeping the family's hunger at bay. No pressure there.
Something I recently read (You: On a Diet by Dr. Oz): Chronic stress causes chronic carb craving. Sugar and refined carbs can also be a way of coping with the chronic stress of poverty.0 -
I'm having a hard time understanding why people think it costs so much more to eat healthier food. Since my husband and I started eating healthier in January of this year, I've cut my grocery bill by about $100 every 2 weeks, so $50/week. I buy fresh veggies and fruit, lean, good quality meat, whole grain bread and low fat dairy. I shop at Aldi, Sam's Club and Albertson's. I do not use coupons very often. I quit buying as many snacks and sodas. We still eat everything we want, just less of it. Our farmer's markets are expensive, but I will buy things there, just because they are local, fresher and better tasting. I am feeding 2 thirtysomethings, a 79 year old, a 16 year old boy that plays sports, and a 10 year old girl. That is EVERY day. Some days I have at least one more teen and one more pre-teen. So why are people spending so much more money? I'm genuinely curious.0
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As a father of four I often feel like all I do is spend my money at the grocery store and yes healthy food can be more exspensive. On the other hand I own a business that puts me in the homes on a daily basis of families that are on rental assistance/snap food benefits and medicaid. As a pest control operator I go thru the cabinets/closets and everywhere else in these homes and yes I do see that all they are eating are noodles, snack cakes, and soda. I also see the healthy food that they get through the WIC ( women infant and child) program that is stacked up in the shelves untill I throw it out because it has been there so long the bugs have moved into it. The milk they get with these benefits is used to pour over sugar filled cereal while the healthy cereal sits and gets infested with bugs. I also notice that with very few exceptions these homes also have the latest flat screen tvs/stereos and newest cell phones not to meantion cable or sat. tv and internet services. The parents also seem to have all the brand name clothing and latest hair and fingernail fashions out there while the kids are dressed in thrift shop clothing. So you would have a hard time making me believe that better diets because of lack of money is most of the problem. I always have someone trying to sale me their foodstamp benefits for .50 cents on the dollar. you are right that it is the kids who are hurting but with little or no accountability in the programs they will always be on the losing end.0
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