Water only diet vs Protein shake diet

JakeBrownVB

Hi,

Im sure we all know the massive benefits that going on a water only diet for a few days can bring (if you dont, please dont talk about starvation mode and crashed metabolism please.. not interested in hearing advocates of these myths). However one concern I have over a 3-5 day water fast is possible muscle canibalisation. Does anyone think or know that subbing in 1 or 2 protein shakes during this fast may prevent that and promote a better burn of fat and over muscle?

Should muscle cannibalisation be a concern during a water only fast or is it not that big a deal?

Also, what is an effective number of days to endure a water fast for to get an optimal detox?

Thanks for any help

sozisraw

You lose muscle on a deficit.
So you would still lose muscle on protein shakes , if still in deficit.
I understand you can do damage limitation by exercise and protein consumption,
but im no expert!

3laine75

i've heard that a fast where you only take in 600 (men) cals for no more than 3 days in a row would be beneficial so i'm sure you could use 2 or 3 shakes - i think the point of it is to cut back the protein (so cells repair rather than multiply?!?) though so i'm not entirely sure.

JakeBrownVB

Thanks! damage limitation is exactly what I would go for if it is not completely unavoidabe

Carol_

I used to fast with Diet Dr. Pepper for a few days. Don't know what I was thinking.:frown: lol Because later in life, I found I did better on Weight Watchers ..without starving.

ironanimal

I'm not aware of any benefits at all of a water-only fast.

Anyway, the only numbers I could find state a pound of muscle equates to anywhere between 600 and 1600 cals, depending on the source. If your deficit for the period exceeds your ability to metabolise fat, the rest will come from muscle/bones/other tissues.

CristinaL1983

Studies have shown no muscle atrophy for fasts lasting up to 72 hours (that I have seen). I stick with a max of 24 hours but have a friend or two (on here) who do occasional longer fasts.

Based on that, I would suggest setting 72 hours as a max. Technically, if you consume protein shakes, your body is no longer in a fasted state. If you are thinking of going that route, you might as well just do a couple shorter fasts and have an actual meal and "fed" day in between.

If I have read my studies correctly, benefits level off after a certain number of hours ranging from 18-30 hours depending on the specific health benefit.

ETA: You may find you get more actual answers if you post in the Intermittent Fasting group.

Second edit: Apparently my early morning reading comprehension isn't top notch. I don't believe in detoxing unless you are detoxing from drugs or alcohol and there are some pretty specific protocols for that. The benefits I am referring to are hormonal and chemical.

3laine75

don't know if you're in the uk or us but if you can find the michael mosely (BBC) documentary on fasting there is some good info in there - i won't try explaining - he does it much better.

JakeBrownVB

Looking around online there is an incredible number of different opinions about, it seems to me like the jury is out on this one.

geebusuk

Also, what is an effective number of days to endure a water fast for to get an optimal detox?

0?

Your body has some excellent mechanisms for 'detoxifying' evolved to work with food consumption over the millennia.

From the wikipedia disambiguation page: "Detoxification, the process, real or perceived, of removing toxins from the body."
A little further down that same page: Detoxification (alternative medicine), is the unsupported belief that a change in consumption habits can remove toxins from the body.

Does anyone have any good evidence it's anything but pure 'woo'?

There's plenty of evidence regarding addiction to drugs and how a 'detox' can help you get off with an appropriate program I believe. I haven't seen any so far for food related ones. Nor 'cleanses'.

JakeBrownVB

Sorry but that really isnt what I just said now was it... the jury is out on wether or not protein consumption during a fast slows down the rate of muscle antropy.

If you are actually saying that the benefits of a water fast is "pure hockey" then you have really no clue what you are talking about and I gladly disregard your opinions and label you among the kind of people who state that 1600 calories a day causes "starvation mode"...

I would like some experianced or knowledgable individuals to assist me in furthering my understanding of a water fast which already fast superceeds your current knowledge that can only be described as no knowledge at all..

rabies

Water fasts work, just as well as any other way of lowering your energy balance by some 2000-2500 calories. If you want to go that route then by all means do it.

You can slow down muscle loss by adding essential amino acids in sufficient amounts, but if you're aiming at less than 0.5g protein per pound of bodyweight don't bother.

However, protein shakes are very suboptimal when fasting. The proteins needs to be digested in order to enter the blood stream, and during a fast they simply won't stay in your system long enough. Go the EAA/BCAA route instead.

K_Serz

What kind of water do you plan on drinking during this detoxifying water fast of yours? Mineral, Sparkling, Distilled, Tap, Spring ??

goodtimezzzz

I have fasted for many years now off and on..and Protein Shakes have no business in a fast! Water is the way to go my friend:)
I truly hope you know what you are doing here...

semarsh12

The human body is just not designed to do these kind of things. Really.



Good luck with that.

ndj1979

OP you should probably not do more than a 72 hour fast, anything longer than that will put you into starvation mode. As someone else suggested, you might have better success with a long fast followed by a small eating window like something like lean gains 18/8 ...

I am not opposed to IF, I did lean gains for six months with good results. I am opposed to five day fasts as that just seems a sure way to put yourself into starvation mode, which is not a myth when one has not eaten for three days straight...

I would suggest a 72 hour fast or a lean gains type fast and not a 5 day fast..

CatMcCheesey

I just got dumber reading this post.

I had never heard the term "muscle cannibalisation." When I googled "muscle cannibalisation" the only sites that came up were regarding crazy super low cal fad diets.... which speaks very strongly to me about where that term came from. A wiki article didn't even pop up first! Which was surprising....

What you're saying is pure nonsense and honestly, a really ridiculous thing to do. You have fun with it though. I hope you don't have a job where you actually have to focus, think, or operate heavy machinery....

Your google must work differently than mine. I got completely different results from you, when I just did a search in google. And a search in Google Scholar provided links to several different scientific studies.

ArroganceInStep

If you don't have much muscle to lose anyway, I guess it's not that big of a deal. Have fun running on empty after day 2-3.

JakeBrownVB

Why on gods earth are you saying muscle cannibalisation is nonsense?? that is simply another term for your body consuming proteins from your muscle when you are on a low calorie diet or fast..

If you have honestly never heard that you loose muscle when dieting then you have no business posting in forums where a person is asking for advice.

Oh yeah you dont consume muscle when dieting.. thats why all the starving people in concentration camps had massive abs and ripped muscly bodies.. and were in fact strong and not weak in the slightest...

God it can be so infuriating trying to get honest advice when so many miss informed (and im sorry but i dont really wanna be rude) idiots are posting in these forums.. especially when someone says that your body consuming muscle is a scam or a fad LOL.

There has been some great help from some people so thanks!

glovepuppet

whether or not it has magical powers, nowt but water for days sounds dull!

my body ticks along ok on... food.

have fun!

JakeBrownVB

Uneducated idiot would like to know what marvelous effects are to be achieved by doing any kind of fast for any number of days?

The positive effects are endless! in fact read 25 on them right here! http://www.listafterlist.com/tabid/57/listid/16131/Health/Top+25+Positive+Effects+of+Fasting.aspx

I would honestly appreciate if you used an ounce of common sense and looked into your research before making sarcastic comments mate..

3laine75

Uneducated idiot would like to know what marvelous effects are to be achieved by doing any kind of fast for any number of days?

cell repair
and according to studies (don't have time to look for links, sorry) extended life expectancy.

i don't do it myself - i like my food too much - just sayin'

Morninglory81

Your body will canabilize muscle after your glycerin stores have been depleted. Most of your body can run off the energy that comes from fat BUT your brain runs on carbohydrates and muscle is the one thing that brakes down in to a usable energy source for the brain. I would suggest a small bit of juice if you are determined to fast for extended periods of time. The suggestion of a eating schedule of 18 hr fast followed by 6 hours to eat is really a good sujestion with maybe a 24-48 hour water fast once a week.

craigmandu

Why on gods earth are you saying muscle cannibalisation is nonsense?? that is simply another term for your body consuming proteins from your muscle when you are on a low calorie diet or fast..

If you have honestly never heard that you loose muscle when dieting then you have no business posting in forums where a person is asking for advice.

Oh yeah you dont consume muscle when dieting.. thats why all the starving people in concentration camps had massive abs and ripped muscly bodies.. and were in fact strong and not weak in the slightest...

God it can be so infuriating trying to get honest advice when so many miss informed (and im sorry but i dont really wanna be rude) idiots are posting in these forums.. especially when someone says that your body consuming muscle is a scam or a fad LOL.

There has been some great help from some people so thanks!

Don't attack....you are not here to "prove a point" you asked a question. You will get both answers you like, and answers you don't.

From everything I've read, even on a small fast, if you haven't prepared for it adequately after your initial glycogen stores are expended you will consume a small amount of muscle...not a large amount think maybe an ounce or two of actual mass depletion until your body completely enters ketosis. I've not read any way to keep that from happening.

3laine75

hi again
i found the name of the programme i mentioned earlier. its, 'Horizon: Eat, Fast and Live Longer' and was shown on BBC2 (in the UK last year) - its worth a watch if you can find it. i don't think there was any specific mention of macros though re: how much protein to include so it might not be what you're looking for.

i see he has a book out now called 'the fast diet' :S - doesn't always inspire confidence when they start trying to make money from it.

crazybookworm

And let the fun begin...

chrisdavey

Luckily, there is already a great post on this.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/821828-detoxes-and-cleanses

And I started the IF group so I'm certainly not against fasting. How long have you fasted before? WHat was your daily,weekly deficit? How did your measurements change? Do you even lift?

Cannibalisation: can·ni·bal·ize (kn-b-lz)
v. can·ni·bal·ized, can·ni·bal·iz·ing, can·ni·bal·iz·es
v.tr.
1. To remove serviceable parts from (damaged airplanes, for example) for use in the repair of other equipment of the same kind.
2. To deprive of vital elements or resources, such as personnel, equipment, or funding, for use elsewhere: "It becomes necessary to cannibalize unsuccessful projects to fund those which can proceed" (Daily Report for Executives).
3. To draw on as a major source: "cannibalizes the lives of his wife and friends for his second-rate novels" (Washington Post).
4. To practice cannibalism on.
v.intr.
To practice cannibalism.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Cannibalisation

Catabolism: ca·tab·o·lism (k-tb-lzm)
n.
The metabolic breakdown of complex molecules into simpler ones, often resulting in a release of energy.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/catabolism

I would probably drop the holier than thou attitude until you get a few basic facts correct.

wareagle8706

Why on gods earth are you saying muscle cannibalisation is nonsense?? that is simply another term for your body consuming proteins from your muscle when you are on a low calorie diet or fast..

If you have honestly never heard that you loose muscle when dieting then you have no business posting in forums where a person is asking for advice.

Oh yeah you dont consume muscle when dieting.. thats why all the starving people in concentration camps had massive abs and ripped muscly bodies.. and were in fact strong and not weak in the slightest...

God it can be so infuriating trying to get honest advice when so many miss informed (and im sorry but i dont really wanna be rude) idiots are posting in these forums.. especially when someone says that your body consuming muscle is a scam or a fad LOL.

There has been some great help from some people so thanks!

Who are you even talking to? When you don't quote people then we don't know who you're responding to. I haven't seen anyone say that people don't LOSE (not "loose," learn the difference) muscle mass when dieting. and I didn't say that either. It's very well established that people will lose muscle and fat when dieting. What I'm saying is you're an idiot for thinking it's ok to only drink water for an extended period of time. That's what I'm saying. But like I said.... if you want to be fatigued, unfocused and weak for days and days, by all means!! You're young... you'll figure it out sooner or later.... It's pretty crazy how defensive and insulting you are toward people right off the bat. Since this in an online forum where you must type out your response that means you have plenty of time to think about your response before hitting "post." Maybe you should practice some restraint instead of jumping down people's throats from the get go. But again.... you're young....

myofibril

You don't strike me as grossly obese but you can read this for education purposes:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/

crazycleo

The positive effects are endless! in fact read 25 on them right here! http://www.listafterlist.com/tabid/57/listid/16131/Health/Top+25+Positive+Effects+of+Fasting.aspx

This is one of the least reputable sources that I have ever come across... I guess I knew that it would be considering what it's advocating. Although at least it mentions that "There has been much contention in the scientific field about whether or not fasting is beneficial to ones health"

I know that this is something that you are going to do anyways despite people's opinions of it are but you really may want to consider taking what some of these people have said into account. You asked for advice and most people think that it's a bad idea... maybe there's a reason behind that?
Although the proven positive effects sound REALLY awesome:
"25. Generally happier, more confident, more kind, more loving and more adventurous"
If that's not a load of hokey, I don't know what is!

jonnythan

muscle canibalisation

muscle cannibalisation

muscle cannibalisation is nonsense??

The irony of you telling other people that they "have really no clue what you are talking about" is delicious.