PALEO

SnicciFit

Who ever said anything about no carbs? Even Atkins adds carbs back in after the first phase. If you're doing Atkins phase one for longer than you're supposed to, or your Paleo diet looks like the first week of Atkins, then you're doing it wrong. Even the ultra-low carb, keto Paleo-ers don't do "zero carb".

Because carbs are found in fruits & veggies and anyone following a paleo template would be eating plenty of fruits & veggies. There's a lot of people out there who believe that if you aren't eating rice, pasta & cake, you aren't eating any carbs. But one can eat well over 100g of carbs per day without ever touching grains.

Dragonwolf

It's the phrase "ideal for humans" I think that a lot of people have a problem with. I doubt anyone would argue that the average American diet is ideal. There is no evidence that Paleo is ideal.

I think "ideal" is a troublesome word in the dietary world, because for a species such as us, it's nearly impossible to reach an "ideal" even on an individual level, let alone a population level. Three cheers for being omnivores.

As a result, there's no evidence that any diet is ideal (in part because it's also a question of "ideal for what purpose?" A bodybuilder's ideal diet is not going to be the same as an ultra-marathoner). There is only evidence that a diet is "more ideal" in relation to another one, usually in relation to the SAD/Western diet (see: 7 Countries Study, French Paradox, Inuit Paradox, and any study involving aboriginal groups that shift from their traditional diets to the Western diet). In that respect, there is quite a bit of evidence that Paleo is at least on par with other such "whole foods" diets as vegetarian and Mediterranean. Where these diets fall in relation to one another still kind of remains to be seen, as there haven't been much in the way of comparing them to each other on a research level.

Agree. I don't believe any amount of research will ever prove any diet as "ideal", even for those with similar lifestyles other than diet. There is too much evidence that humans can be healthy on a variety of diets. And as long as you are healthy, the diet is ideal.

I guess that's what bothers me about the premise of the Paleo diet It's nothing to do with the recommended foods, which I believe can keep a person healthy. It's the list of "bad" foods. Foods deemed unhealthy despite millions, probably billions, of healthy people eating them on a regular basis. The so-called SAD full of overly processed grains stripped of most of their nutritents does not = grains are unhealthy for human consumption.

A lot of stuff gets lost in the hype, especially to newcomers and outsiders (it's kind of like the veg*n and protein myths). Such is the way of the media train. Here are a couple of places you can find the studies and research papers that back the basis of the paleo style diets, in case you're interested. In short, the foods that are on the "do not eat" list (particularly those at the top), are ones that have been shown time and time again to cause harm to the body in various ways.

Loren Cordain, one of the foremost experts on the science behind the paleo-style diets, has a number of published papers that you might be interested in. You can find them here - http://thepaleodiet.com/published-research-about-the-paleo-diet/

Dave Asprey also has a number of references that show things like the effects of Omega-6:Omega-3 ratios, the effects of certain grains on the body, and others. He's not a doctor, himself, but his references are from peer-reviewed sources. If nothing else, it can provide you with a good starting point. The references that got him started are here - http://www.bulletproofexec.com/the-complete-illustrated-one-page-bulletproof-diet/ and you can probably find more throughout his site if you wanted.

fooninie

A lot of people think that you can eat as much as you want on Paleo but that is false -- still count your calories and make sure you are high in protein. Are you strict paleo?

open your diary

I agree! A food diary will shed light on your plateau. I am a firm believer in the low carb/low fat approach. I have recently started exploring the effects of too many grains as well and can honestly say I do much better with moderate grain-based foods in my diet.

SnicciFit

A lot of people think that you can eat as much as you want on Paleo but that is false -- still count your calories and make sure you are high in protein. Are you strict paleo?

open your diary

I agree! A food diary will shed light on your plateau. I am a firm believer in the low carb/low fat approach. I have recently started exploring the effects of too many grains as well and can honestly say I do much better with moderate grain-based foods in my diet.

low-carb AND low fat? so, you eat mostly protein then?

fooninie

Who ever said anything about no carbs? Even Atkins adds carbs back in after the first phase. If you're doing Atkins phase one for longer than you're supposed to, or your Paleo diet looks like the first week of Atkins, then you're doing it wrong. Even the ultra-low carb, keto Paleo-ers don't do "zero carb".

Because carbs are found in fruits & veggies and anyone following a paleo template would be eating plenty of fruits & veggies. There's a lot of people out there who believe that if you aren't eating rice, pasta & cake, you aren't eating any carbs. But one can eat well over 100g of carbs per day without ever touching grains.

Bang on!! I think the missing word here is "refined" carbs!! I 100% agree!

bcattoes

I think "ideal" is a troublesome word in the dietary world, because for a species such as us, it's nearly impossible to reach an "ideal" even on an individual level, let alone a population level.

I do agree with that, but there are some things I think we can all agree are maybe not idea. Lots of cakes, man made trans fats, etc... This is an attempt to get closer to what is most likely to promote health. It's not perfect, and it should adapt to new evidence and to individual. Diabetics, people who can't digest lactose, people with other allergies and diseases...all of these things are on an individual level and would need to be individualized. But I think you can fit most of that within the paleo/primal idea.

I think we are all an N of 1, and what works for you will have to be tweaked until you get it perfect. Like an experiment.

But a lot of diets recommend not to eat a lot of sweets, trans fats, overly processed grains, processed foods etc. This is in no way limited to Paleo so doens't really make an argument for it being ideal over other diets.

The so-called SAD full of overly processed grains stripped of most of their nutritents does not = grains are unhealthy for human consumption.

But see that's where 80/20 and personal experimentation come in, IMO. For some people, eating a lot of grains might be problematic. That's where experimentation comes in. If you are overweight, something is wrong with the way you are eating. Someone next to you may be 'healthy' and can eat all that stuff and stay a stick, but you can't. Nobody is being forced to switch over to paleo. Or to strictly adhere to any particular dietary rules.

I don't understand the "forced to switch to Paleo remark, but iIf you are overweight, the only thing wrong with your diet may be too many calories. For some people eating a lot of protein is problematic. That doesn't make protein unhealthy for humans.

bcattoes

It's the phrase "ideal for humans" I think that a lot of people have a problem with. I doubt anyone would argue that the average American diet is ideal. There is no evidence that Paleo is ideal.

I think "ideal" is a troublesome word in the dietary world, because for a species such as us, it's nearly impossible to reach an "ideal" even on an individual level, let alone a population level. Three cheers for being omnivores.

As a result, there's no evidence that any diet is ideal (in part because it's also a question of "ideal for what purpose?" A bodybuilder's ideal diet is not going to be the same as an ultra-marathoner). There is only evidence that a diet is "more ideal" in relation to another one, usually in relation to the SAD/Western diet (see: 7 Countries Study, French Paradox, Inuit Paradox, and any study involving aboriginal groups that shift from their traditional diets to the Western diet). In that respect, there is quite a bit of evidence that Paleo is at least on par with other such "whole foods" diets as vegetarian and Mediterranean. Where these diets fall in relation to one another still kind of remains to be seen, as there haven't been much in the way of comparing them to each other on a research level.

Agree. I don't believe any amount of research will ever prove any diet as "ideal", even for those with similar lifestyles other than diet. There is too much evidence that humans can be healthy on a variety of diets. And as long as you are healthy, the diet is ideal.

I guess that's what bothers me about the premise of the Paleo diet It's nothing to do with the recommended foods, which I believe can keep a person healthy. It's the list of "bad" foods. Foods deemed unhealthy despite millions, probably billions, of healthy people eating them on a regular basis. The so-called SAD full of overly processed grains stripped of most of their nutritents does not = grains are unhealthy for human consumption.

A lot of stuff gets lost in the hype, especially to newcomers and outsiders (it's kind of like the veg*n and protein myths). Such is the way of the media train. Here are a couple of places you can find the studies and research papers that back the basis of the paleo style diets, in case you're interested. In short, the foods that are on the "do not eat" list (particularly those at the top), are ones that have been shown time and time again to cause harm to the body in various ways.

Loren Cordain, one of the foremost experts on the science behind the paleo-style diets, has a number of published papers that you might be interested in. You can find them here - http://thepaleodiet.com/published-research-about-the-paleo-diet/

Dave Asprey also has a number of references that show things like the effects of Omega-6:Omega-3 ratios, the effects of certain grains on the body, and others. He's not a doctor, himself, but his references are from peer-reviewed sources. If nothing else, it can provide you with a good starting point. The references that got him started are here - http://www.bulletproofexec.com/the-complete-illustrated-one-page-bulletproof-diet/ and you can probably find more throughout his site if you wanted.

Anything in a scientific or nutrition journal or website or other objective media? Of course Paleo websites are going to be pro-Paleo and anti-everything else.

shannashannabobana

I don't understand the "forced to switch to Paleo remark

Meaning if you don't like it, or you would rather go with eating 'clean' or whatever other diet advocates go for it. I think there is a lot of common ground because some things are becoming obvious. I like the idea of paleo because it makes more sense to me than an arbitrary set of rules - it's more fun to talk about what 'grok' would have done then to be all sad faced because you can't have cake. And the people I enjoy, like Mark Sisson, are a little more laid back about the whole thing and focus on more than just food (like spending time in nature and alleviating stress). Food is just part of it, but the part we're discussing because we're on MYP.

If that doesn't appeal to you, try something else. There are many things that can make you lose weight, but I'm interested in doing things that I think are overall healthy, like eating whole fruits and vegetables and meats.

But a lot of diets recommend not to eat a lot of sweets, trans fats, overly processed grains, processed foods etc. This is in no way limited to Paleo so doens't really make an argument for it being ideal over other diets.

I think what makes paleo/primal different from those is the lack of all grains, not just 'processed' grains. (And the dairy thing, which is still sort of debated both ways). I consider paleo at heart to be about eating real, natural foods as much as possible, no matter how it is dressed up. If other diets advocate that, I am all for them as well.

DatMurse

mark sisson would have to be lenient due to the whey he is selling

bcattoes

I don't understand the "forced to switch to Paleo remark

Meaning if you don't like it, or you would rather go with eating 'clean' or whatever other diet advocates go for it. I think there is a lot of common ground because some things are becoming obvious. I like the idea of paleo because it makes more sense to me than an arbitrary set of rules - it's more fun to talk about what 'grok' would have done then to be all sad faced because you can't have cake. And the people I enjoy, like Mark Sisson, are a little more laid back about the whole thing and focus on more than just food (like spending time in nature and alleviating stress). Food is just part of it, but the part we're discussing because we're on MYP.

If that doesn't appeal to you, try something else. There are many things that can make you lose weight, but I'm interested in doing things that I think are overall healthy, like eating whole fruits and vegetables and meats.

But a lot of diets recommend not to eat a lot of sweets, trans fats, overly processed grains, processed foods etc. This is in no way limited to Paleo so doens't really make an argument for it being ideal over other diets.

I think what makes paleo/primal different from those is the lack of all grains, not just 'processed' grains. (And the dairy thing, which is still sort of debated both ways). I consider paleo at heart to be about eating real, natural foods as much as possible, no matter how it is dressed up. If other diets advocate that, I am all for them as well.

Yeah, that is more or less my point. Where is the evidence that grains (or legumes) are unhealthy? Millions of people eat them and remain healthy. Switching from the so-called SAD to a diet rich in whole grains has been shown to improve health.

bcattoes

It's the phrase "ideal for humans" I think that a lot of people have a problem with. I doubt anyone would argue that the average American diet is ideal. There is no evidence that Paleo is ideal.

I think "ideal" is a troublesome word in the dietary world, because for a species such as us, it's nearly impossible to reach an "ideal" even on an individual level, let alone a population level. Three cheers for being omnivores.

As a result, there's no evidence that any diet is ideal (in part because it's also a question of "ideal for what purpose?" A bodybuilder's ideal diet is not going to be the same as an ultra-marathoner). There is only evidence that a diet is "more ideal" in relation to another one, usually in relation to the SAD/Western diet (see: 7 Countries Study, French Paradox, Inuit Paradox, and any study involving aboriginal groups that shift from their traditional diets to the Western diet). In that respect, there is quite a bit of evidence that Paleo is at least on par with other such "whole foods" diets as vegetarian and Mediterranean. Where these diets fall in relation to one another still kind of remains to be seen, as there haven't been much in the way of comparing them to each other on a research level.

Agree. I don't believe any amount of research will ever prove any diet as "ideal", even for those with similar lifestyles other than diet. There is too much evidence that humans can be healthy on a variety of diets. And as long as you are healthy, the diet is ideal.

I guess that's what bothers me about the premise of the Paleo diet It's nothing to do with the recommended foods, which I believe can keep a person healthy. It's the list of "bad" foods. Foods deemed unhealthy despite millions, probably billions, of healthy people eating them on a regular basis. The so-called SAD full of overly processed grains stripped of most of their nutritents does not = grains are unhealthy for human consumption.

what bad foods?

meat?

Grains and legumes.

nashai01

Happy you are doing a balanced approach paleo is for cavemen..not very enlightening...I did pale..it was an epic failure...eat all foods be abundant LIVE ABUNDANTLY!! learn from us and kick ****ING *kitten*!!!!!!

I just love that you said it was an Epic Fail for you. Same for me. I do crossfit too and everyone keeps telling me how great Paleo is. I did it for 2 weeks. I'm a try again July 1st.

Dragonwolf

Loren Cordain, one of the foremost experts on the science behind the paleo-style diets, has a number of published papers that you might be interested in. You can find them here - http://thepaleodiet.com/published-research-about-the-paleo-diet/

Dave Asprey also has a number of references that show things like the effects of Omega-6:Omega-3 ratios, the effects of certain grains on the body, and others. He's not a doctor, himself, but his references are from peer-reviewed sources. If nothing else, it can provide you with a good starting point. The references that got him started are here - http://www.bulletproofexec.com/the-complete-illustrated-one-page-bulletproof-diet/ and you can probably find more throughout his site if you wanted.

Anything in a scientific or nutrition journal or website or other objective media? Of course Paleo websites are going to be pro-Paleo and anti-everything else.

Perhaps you should actually follow the links I posted? Cordain's papers are peer-reviewed, and can be found on places like PubMed, as well. Asprey's references are from PubMed, Springer Link, and other general research publication sites. I gave you the links that I did, because it seems kind of redundant to repost every single one, when they're already aggregated.

KatLifter

It's the phrase "ideal for humans" I think that a lot of people have a problem with. I doubt anyone would argue that the average American diet is ideal. There is no evidence that Paleo is ideal.

I think "ideal" is a troublesome word in the dietary world, because for a species such as us, it's nearly impossible to reach an "ideal" even on an individual level, let alone a population level. Three cheers for being omnivores.

As a result, there's no evidence that any diet is ideal (in part because it's also a question of "ideal for what purpose?" A bodybuilder's ideal diet is not going to be the same as an ultra-marathoner). There is only evidence that a diet is "more ideal" in relation to another one, usually in relation to the SAD/Western diet (see: 7 Countries Study, French Paradox, Inuit Paradox, and any study involving aboriginal groups that shift from their traditional diets to the Western diet). In that respect, there is quite a bit of evidence that Paleo is at least on par with other such "whole foods" diets as vegetarian and Mediterranean. Where these diets fall in relation to one another still kind of remains to be seen, as there haven't been much in the way of comparing them to each other on a research level.

How long have you been Paleo and how have your results been?

bcattoes

Loren Cordain, one of the foremost experts on the science behind the paleo-style diets, has a number of published papers that you might be interested in. You can find them here - http://thepaleodiet.com/published-research-about-the-paleo-diet/

Dave Asprey also has a number of references that show things like the effects of Omega-6:Omega-3 ratios, the effects of certain grains on the body, and others. He's not a doctor, himself, but his references are from peer-reviewed sources. If nothing else, it can provide you with a good starting point. The references that got him started are here - http://www.bulletproofexec.com/the-complete-illustrated-one-page-bulletproof-diet/ and you can probably find more throughout his site if you wanted.

Anything in a scientific or nutrition journal or website or other objective media? Of course Paleo websites are going to be pro-Paleo and anti-everything else.

Perhaps you should actually follow the links I posted? Cordain's papers are peer-reviewed, and can be found on places like PubMed, as well. Asprey's references are from PubMed, Springer Link, and other general research publication sites. I gave you the links that I did, because it seems kind of redundant to repost every single one, when they're already aggregated.

I did follow one of the links. It was very colorful and long and I admittedly didn't read it all. I wasn't necessarily talking about studies, more like an objective opinion from the scientific community agreeing that grains were unhealthy. Or legumes, but we were talking grains.

Dragonwolf

How long have you been Paleo and how have your results been?

A little over a year at this point. I haven't had blood tests done since switching (namely due to hostile doctors, which I've switched away from, but still awaiting my first appointment with the new one), but here's a quick list of the benefits I've seen so far:

- More stable hunger (no more "must...have...food..." zombie walk to the kitchen at meal times, even when doing the eating every couple of hours thing)
- Ability to self-regulate eating (the ability to actually stop eating when I was no longer hungry now works, as does the actual feeling of being "not hungry" as opposed to only "starving" or "stuffed", which didn't work before; I can also walk by food at work and feel zero "need" or desire to have things that I used to have to fight with myself to not eat)
- Regular menstrual cycles (due to hormonal reasons, the past few years have seen none, except when I was on Metformin about four years ago)
- More stable energy (few to no "two o'clock slumps")
- Hunger felt in the stomach ("actual" hunger) as opposed to the head (blood sugar crash "hunger"), which also means that I can still function and focus, even when hungry
- Fewer cravings for junk food, more cravings for healthier foods
- Less "bloated" or "fat" feeling
- Better GI health
- No heart burn at night (for a few years, I was taking Tums every single night)
- Reduced acne (smaller zits, less redness)
- More stable mood, better overall mood/less depression

SnicciFit

How long have you been Paleo and how have your results been?

A little over a year at this point. I haven't had blood tests done since switching (namely due to hostile doctors, which I've switched away from, but still awaiting my first appointment with the new one), but here's a quick list of the benefits I've seen so far:

- More stable hunger (no more "must...have...food..." zombie walk to the kitchen at meal times, even when doing the eating every couple of hours thing)
- Ability to self-regulate eating (the ability to actually stop eating when I was no longer hungry now works, as does the actual feeling of being "not hungry" as opposed to only "starving" or "stuffed", which didn't work before; I can also walk by food at work and feel zero "need" or desire to have things that I used to have to fight with myself to not eat)
- Regular menstrual cycles (due to hormonal reasons, the past few years have seen none, except when I was on Metformin about four years ago)
- More stable energy (few to no "two o'clock slumps")
- Hunger felt in the stomach ("actual" hunger) as opposed to the head (blood sugar crash "hunger"), which also means that I can still function and focus, even when hungry
- Fewer cravings for junk food, more cravings for healthier foods
- Less "bloated" or "fat" feeling
- Better GI health
- No heart burn at night (for a few years, I was taking Tums every single night)
- Reduced acne (smaller zits, less redness)
- More stable mood, better overall mood/less depression

After about a year of paleo (with some Whole30s mixed in) my results list is almost identical! I have had blood work done several times, and while I didn't have high cholesterol or blood sugar or anything before, my numbers went from "good" to "excellent." My (so-called) good cholesterol is higher than my (so-called) bad cholesterol now, giving me a ratio better than any other that my doctor has seen. I've also lost over 35lbs :happy:

Dragonwolf

I did follow one of the links. It was very colorful and long and I admittedly didn't read it all. I wasn't necessarily talking about studies, more like an objective opinion from the scientific community agreeing that grains were unhealthy. Or legumes, but we were talking grains.

You said, previously:

Anything in a scientific or nutrition journal or website or other objective media? Of course Paleo websites are going to be pro-Paleo and anti-everything else.

How do you get more objective (especially from the scientific community) than research papers and studies showing these effects?

Here are a few articles that are, I think, more along the lines of "objective opinion" for you. If they're not what you're looking for, you're going to have to be more specific, because I honestly don't know what you mean, if these aren't it and the PubMed stuff isn't it.

http://drhyman.com/blog/2011/03/17/gluten-what-you-dont-know-might-kill-you/
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704893604576200393522456636.html (not technically a doctor's opinion piece, but does illustrate the gluten is bad for people even without Celiac)
http://www.vrp.com/digestive-health/digestive-health/lectins-their-damaging-role-in-intestinal-health (info on lectins, a component of grains and legumes, and their effect on health)
http://wellnessmama.com/2029/spill-the-beans-are-they-healthy-or-not/ (more stuff about lectins, from a nutritionist, and more along the lines of "objective opinion" piece)
http://wellnessmama.com/575/how-grains-are-killing-you-slowly/ (and her piece on grains)
http://www.sott.net/article/216154-Food-Lectins-in-Health-and-Disease-An-Introduction (more lectin talk)

Dragonwolf

After about a year of paleo (with some Whole30s mixed in) my results list is almost identical! I have had blood work done several times, and while I didn't have high cholesterol or blood sugar or anything before, my numbers went from "good" to "excellent." My (so-called) good cholesterol is higher than my (so-called) bad cholesterol now, giving me a ratio better than any other that my doctor has seen. I've also lost over 35lbs :happy:

That's awesome! :drinker: