How many pounds of muscle could I really put on?

Just tagging to follow - Niner is dishing out some good info here.

Me too! Tagging along, I mean.

So, if I'm following this thread, who do I find more credible? Ninerbuff with 28 years of experience both competing and training and has answered factually and respectfully or Waldo56 who has been at it less than a year and is making unussualy large claims of muscle growth based on one article. And is doing so with some tone of arrogance and disrespect, taking occiasional veiled shots at Niner and his training experience. To me the answer is clear.

Maybe Waldo need to go back to school to learn a liltte. Just sayin'.......

An article that is written by Lyle McDonald, a long time trainer and designer of pro bodybuilding competition diets, pretty much the bodybuilding diet guru, who references 3 other models than his own as well. One by Alan Aragorn, another bodybuilding diet guru. One by Casey Butts, who basically reworked the Willoughby ideal #'s on modern bodybuilders, and one by Martain Berkhan, the designer of Leangains. Also referenced earlier in this thread was what Rippetoe has said on the subject, which is even more aggressive than these 4 models.

So basically a who's who in the bodybuilding world and their take on the subject, and their models, or some dude flaunting his credentials on a message board.

Just sayin'......

This is the same Ninerbuff that doesn't think you can get strong and put on muscle mass with bodyweight exercises, a point that we have argued in the past.

Lol, now I see why you disagree..........:laugh: Quit exaggerating. I NEVER said you can't get strong with body weight exercises. I stated that doing body weight weight exercises doesn't equate to STRENGTH training (progressive resistance) because as the weight goes down the resistance lessens (while on calorie deficit was the debate)if doing the same exercises. YOU QUIT RESPONDING after I asked how one increases strength if weight was the same doing the same exercise, but just more reps. And putting on muscle mass wasn't part of the debate. Ad hominem bro.

There are people who are known as "hardgainers" (I was one) who do all the right things and still struggle to put on lean muscle in comparison with someone who may have a disposition to do it.

You should know that the hardgainer concept is considered a myth by many. "Show me a hardgainer and I'll show you an undereater" is a pretty well known phrase.

Really? So you're going to tell me that 2 people doing the same exact arm workout, eating the same surplus, etc. are going to have the same results in gains? If that were entirely true, then EVERY bodybuilder should have equal arms, legs, back, etc.

Again, I don't disagree with authors methodology. You keep stating that males are GOING to gain 20-25lbs of muscle the first year of training, while the authors are speaking of POTENTIAL. Reality is that maybe a handful of males may achieve that. And that's with all the "stars" lined up. The OP asked about what was really achievable in muscle gain. And that's exactly what I gave her.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Alan and Lyle seem to know their stuff. Been following them roughly for a few years. This is what they do and study basically. Jus sayin...

I have too. I just happen to disagree with actual "number" of amount of "pure" muscle that one gains in first year of training. That's all. I don't disagree with their methodology at all.
Waldo is pretty much just trying to discredit me because he was schooled.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

So, if I'm following this thread, who do I find more credible? Ninerbuff with 28 years of experience both competing and training and has answered factually and respectfully or Waldo56 who has been at it less than a year and is making unussualy large claims of muscle growth based on one article. And is doing so with some tone of arrogance and disrespect, taking occiasional veiled shots at Niner and his training experience. To me the answer is clear.

Maybe Waldo need to go back to school to learn a liltte. Just sayin'.......

And by the same token do we listen to the likes of super well known Lyle and Casey etc or this PT? Who has mentioned hardgainers LOL. Hardgainer=undereater. Next we will be talking about somatotypes... Yes there is some variance in genetics but enough to make the difference between 5 and 15 lbs? ONE HUNDRED FIFTY PERCENT difference based on genetics? I kinda doubt it... We talk about the difference between men and women being roughly double but between 2 men of same height it's going to be triple?

Dr. Oz is well known. So is Jillian Michaels. I guess they are 100% correct in their beliefs too? Testosterone levels make a total difference. A "hard gainer" doesn't have to be an under eater. Some people can't get body parts to respond like some do. King Kamali has crappy arms even though he trains them hard. Johnny Jackson can't get his legs to respond like his upper body.
Branch Warren and Dexter Jackson are approximately the same height (maybe a .5 inch difference) Both come in shredded for competitions. More than sure both are doing what it takes to achieve muscle mass. Branch outweighs (competition weight) Dexter by about 20lbs. Branch looks like he carries more muscle. But of course that shouldn't happen according to what you're saying.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I understand you feel the need to defend your point to death even if it is incorrect, so have at it.

Look in the mirror Bro! You just described yourself. And the OP got what she need and departed a long time ago.

Lol yeah I think it's kind of funny when people think they gained 3 pounds of muscle in a week from doing something like the 30 day shred while eating 1200 calories a day. Riiiiiiiight.

I don't know how long or optimally any of them have been training, but I doubt the differences in their gains are close to 150% Just sayin'.

It's a 20lbs difference in muscle between the two. Your point was that it shouldn't happen. Both are seasoned veteran competitors in the pros and have at least 12 years competitive background between the two. The stats are true about the two.

The genetic differences and limitations within reason (hormone profile bad enough to be prescribed therapy aside) would not account for the extreme difference in potential that these guys' models show vs what you have said nor would they account for the 140lbs skinny kid who eats 2000 cals per day saying "bro, i eat so much" needing to be called a hardgainer.

Let me ask you: Do you believe that EVERYONE grows muscle the same? That if you train you chest just as hard as your legs that both will have the same exact percentage of muscle gain, or could someone train that hard and have great legs and a chest that doesn't resemble the same gains? If you believe that equal training for all body parts will result in equal gains, then your experience in the "muscle world" is limited. Many people's body parts respond better than other body parts when trying to gain. To believe it doesn't happen would be naive.

You want us not to confuse potential with actual results, but potential is what the OP asked for and the potential is there.

Actually she asked what was an EXPECTED and average result, not a potential result.

Anyone can achieve it if they train with the proper volume, frequency, and intensity for their training level and recovery ability. We aren't here to discuss the results of people who don't train properly and\or lack the discipline to maximize their results.

I understand you feel the need to defend your point to death even if it is incorrect, so have at it.

I have given examples of real people who have trained correctly and with much better discipline than the average person along with actual references from clinical studies. It's incorrect if it's false.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I'm don't consider myself a weight lifter/body builder, but I do work out 4-5 times per week. I notice that when I'm training consistently my appetite does seem to increase so I need to keep a careful watch on calorie intake because it's pretty easy to go over (unless I'm using myfitnesspal correctly). Still you shouldn't worry too much about muscle gain- I see it as a good thing!

I have given examples of real people who have trained correctly and with much better discipline than the average person along with actual references from clinical studies. It's incorrect if it's false.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I looked at those links, and they are just like every other study. useless. lol at trained correctly. do a couple machines at load weights far below max and measure differences over a month.

If you want an eye opener, why dont you look at gyms like westside, defrancos, etc. hell, defrancos is a perfect example where they take football players with years of experience and toss on a good dozen lbs of rip in a few months before the combine. According to you this is impossible yet they have done it hundreds of times if not thousands.

the idea a newb can get 26lbs of lean mass is not shocking. Ive seen it done many times. Hell myself tossed on 50lbs over the course of a year when I actually decided to train hard and see what would happen, and this was with a decent base to begin with. While not all lean gains, the idea that I tossed on 40+lbs of fat to the 10 lean according to your metrics is laughable in every possible way.

Hell, quick ****ing google. Why dont we shall we. unlike your studies, which are ****, heres someone actually doing something

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=123682031&page=1

Let me guess, of the 60lbs he gained, about 50 are fat right... That explains why he looks to ****ting in the after pic.

I could go on and provide hundreds of examples of the same ****, but why bother, you obviously know better.

Doing everything right isn't really THAT hard though. Lift on a proper routine for your training and recovery levels with progression that fits the same, eat a proper diet, work out consistently. It is really easier than what a lot of people actually do.