Horizon Eat, fast and live longer
Replies
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I'm actually on a 5/2 regimen. Second week now, day #1 done.
I am 77kg, so that's 62g of protein per day. I wish the programme made that clearer because before all this protein-reduction advice, everyone used to say "eat protein" and the common opinion was that there isn't enough protein in our normal diets, yet the programme says we consume too much of it. So the RDA recommendation *is* the reduced amount of protein?
You mention IGF-1, whereas I (pardon my ignorance) am referring to IGH-1 (insulin-like growth hormone 1) since that's the focus of the programme. So if I understood correctly, you advise not to eat any protein at all on the fast day - I presume to put the body into repair mode and/or reduce IGH-1 levels? Is 1 day enough for this? I fast 2 days in a row, so not sure how to proceed if I was to follow your suggestion.
At the moment I am surviving on about 30g of protein - which is half of my RDA, per fast-day. It helps with appetite and ensures I don't burn my muscles as fuel since I eat very little carbs (mostly veg and a portion of fish).
Since the emphasis of the programme was protein reduction, I am a little concerned doubling my protein following the fasting because the same could be said about calories, but no one eats extra calories on their normal day following their fast day.
And since protein is "anabolic", used for growth (correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not just muscle growth is it?), and the idea of the programme was to "stop growing" or stop the "go-go" mode, so the body can "repair" itself, so my point is it might not be necessary to eat extra protein on normal days?
Having written all that, it now seems opposite, since we take protein after we stopped "go-go" i.e. we stopped exercising, and use protein to repair our muscles, but I guess that's just another rather unrelated topic of muscle building.
FYI: Michael Mosley himself (according to his Twitter posts) has a modest amount of protein on his fast days.
One thing I am still not certain is exercise. I am 99% sure that even if I burn 300 Kcal in the gym, doesn't mean I can eat 300 extra on my fast day; a fast is a fast and there should be clear gaps between meals - of ideally 24 hours, if I understood correctly. And yet, the effects of exercise during fasting can be extremely tiring, so there has to be a right workout. From what I read it has to be fat-burning zone (70% max your heart rate) which uses fat for fuel, and anything higher such as interval training would use glucose and since this fasting diet is low on carbs, one would end up using the last remains of glucose in the muscles and get fatigued big time.
There's just one more thing, but I'll write tomorrow, this is long enough :-) Hyper from all the fasting!!0 -
I'm actually on a 5/2 regimen. Second week now, day #1 done.
I am 77kg, so that's 62g of protein per day. I wish the programme made that clearer because before all this protein-reduction advice, everyone used to say "eat protein" and the common opinion was that there isn't enough protein in our normal diets, yet the programme says we consume too much of it. So the RDA recommendation *is* the reduced amount of protein?
You mention IGF-1, whereas I (pardon my ignorance) am referring to IGH-1 (insulin-like growth hormone 1) since that's the focus of the programme. So if I understood correctly, you advise not to eat any protein at all on the fast day - I presume to put the body into repair mode and/or reduce IGH-1 levels? Is 1 day enough for this? I fast 2 days in a row, so not sure how to proceed if I was to follow your suggestion.
At the moment I am surviving on about 30g of protein - which is half of my RDA, per fast-day. It helps with appetite and ensures I don't burn my muscles as fuel since I eat very little carbs (mostly veg and a portion of fish).
Since the emphasis of the programme was protein reduction, I am a little concerned doubling my protein following the fasting because the same could be said about calories, but no one eats extra calories on their normal day following their fast day.
And since protein is "anabolic", used for growth (correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not just muscle growth is it?), and the idea of the programme was to "stop growing" or stop the "go-go" mode, so the body can "repair" itself, so my point is it might not be necessary to eat extra protein on normal days?
Having written all that, it now seems opposite, since we take protein after we stopped "go-go" i.e. we stopped exercising, and use protein to repair our muscles, but I guess that's just another rather unrelated topic of muscle building.
FYI: Michael Mosley himself (according to his Twitter posts) has a modest amount of protein on his fast days.
One thing I am still not certain is exercise. I am 99% sure that even if I burn 300 Kcal in the gym, doesn't mean I can eat 300 extra on my fast day; a fast is a fast and there should be clear gaps between meals - of ideally 24 hours, if I understood correctly. And yet, the effects of exercise during fasting can be extremely tiring, so there has to be a right workout. From what I read it has to be fat-burning zone (70% max your heart rate) which uses fat for fuel, and anything higher such as interval training would use glucose and since this fasting diet is low on carbs, one would end up using the last remains of glucose in the muscles and get fatigued big time.
There's just one more thing, but I'll write tomorrow, this is long enough :-) Hyper from all the fasting!!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/9480451/The-52-diet-can-it-help-you-lose-weight-and-live-longer.html
See link above. 55g/day is recommended for the 5/2 diet according to that link (at least that's how it seems to me). The US RDA for protein for adult men is 56g/day and adult women is 46g/day, or you will also see it reported as 0.8g/kg/day.
I don't think you could get 55g in on a fast day so I assume that's for a regular day and the fast day would just be less.
The program didn't focus much on protein though -- it was more about calorie reduction/fasting.
I posted a bunch of links earlier re. studies linking low protein, not calorie reduction, to decreased IGF/IGH (same thing). I do think it's important not to go too low in protein. Have found other studies suggesting that less than 0.8g/kg/day can lead to decreased bone density and muscle loss, for starters, as well as many other problems if you go too low. These factors weren't evaluated in the studies on IGF so there may be hidden costs to going too low in protein -- I would stay at the RDA or slightly above. In one paper, 0.95g/kg/day was enough to decrease IGF.
I think the point is no one really cares about the RDA and most people on a western diet are getting much more protein than that (twice as much or more). Even on a vegetarian diet, I am easily getting 60g a day without even trying (over 1g/kg/day for me). I think that is why that intake is considered "low".0 -
You mean I could not due to the calorie restriction? Because I can eat A LOT of prawns and exceed the protein RDA and still be within my calorie limit.I don't think you could get 55g in on a fast day so I assume that's for a regular day and the fast day would just be less.
Okay, agreed on this: the RDA for protein is what should be considered a "reduction" in our daily diets since we do indeed eat more of it. I never used to think about it, but eating milk, yogurt, egg, ham, cheese, chicken all have a lot of protein and exceeding the RDA is fairly easy if your diet is heavy on those.
There is a temptation to reduce protein even more so than RDA (due to misunderstanding caused by the programme that suggested to reduce protein), but I have decided not to do it and stick to the RDA.
Michael Mosley answered this several times on his Twitter; the experts recommended 60g for men, 50g for women (works out similarly to the 0.8g per 1kg formula), of protein per day (including fast days). Michael Mosley himself said his daily protein intake during fasting is "modest".
Now between Michael Mosley saying "modest" and you saying "less", I am thinking half of RDA on a fast day is reasonable until further science sheds some more light.
Does anyone know the exact regimen details of the original experiment?
Aside from the protein confusion, I have a dilemma. As you know, I am doing 2 consecutive days of fasting with 1 meal of 600kcal. The reason for 1 meal is so I can have a nice 24 hour period between meals, except that it doesn't work out that way.
Day #1, I wake up, last without food until about noon; have a big lunch (a tonne of vegetables, very simple low calorie soups).
Day #2, I do exactly the same.
Day #3, feed-day, when do I start eating? At noon or earlier? The problem with that is that my Day #2 will only be a full fast day if I start eating at noon on my feed day. Am I being too pedantic?
The reason I eat all of the calories at noon and not morning is like others said on this forum, breakfast is easy to skip because I rarely feel hungry first thing in the morning, and would rather have my energy mid-day to get me through the day - and while you're sleeping, you can't be hungry
So the basic dilemma is on fast days if you eat early, you will have 2 x 24 hour days of fasting since when you wake up on your normal feed-day you can start eating in the morning. The trade off is eating early in the morning might not suffice to get through the day.
My other problem is this 600kcal meal. Today I was struggling to eat even half of it - and the whole meal was way under 600 which made me wonder. By the time of writing this, I slowly chewed through it, leaving a little bit (left out the apple, good thing too), but I truly feel stuffed and I am concerned that this offsets some of the benefits of fasting e.g. shrinking stomach so on feed-days you can fit less, and want to eat less. I think there's definitely too much there because I feel stuffed but I don't want to start eating 2 meals. Perhaps I will stop at 500 or introduce something naughty like chocolate, or maybe a bit of a brown roll, or nuts.
Hunger comes and goes, focusing at work really helps.
There comes a time when I constantly think about food: is this normal? I wonder if it's just me being really "into it" so trying to get it right.
Anyways, if you're wondering what it is that's so big that makes you really full and within the calorie limit, here's what I haven't managed to eat for lunch today: http://i45.tinypic.com/2hz5m45.jpg
Cucumber: 237g - 24kcal
Mushrooms: 123g - 20kcal
Carrots: 142g - 60kcal
Babycorn: 91g - 22kcal
Peas: 90g - 30kcal
Tomatoes: 132g - 24kcal
2 hard-boiled eggs - 150kcal
Tesco Sardines in Brine - 144kcal
1 Tesco Eve Apple
Generous amount of dill, parsley and corriander - negligible calories.
474 Kcal in total, without the apple. No room for the apple unfortunately.0 -
In response to Dan . . .
I guess there isn't any reason you couldn't get 60g protein on fast days -- that's only 240 calories. As far as IGF is concerned, you should be fine to eat 60g protein every day and see the benefit (that's my understanding anyway, I am not an expert). I was just thinking it would be hard to do that in one meal but maybe not.
Why are you doing 2 consecutive days -- I thought the program recommended to do 2 separate days (see link I posted before)? Also, as far as having 24 hours between meals, I don't think that's necessary (per the program, it may have other benefits) -- they recommend 2 isolated fast days with 1-2 small meals so there would never be a period of 24 hours between meals. Essentially, it is not fasting, it is twice weekly calorie reduction.
You sound like you are doing more of an Eat Stop Eat plan except that you are eating two meals during a 48 hour fast period. Not saying it's better or worse, just slightly different than what I thought the 5/2 program was. Could have exactly the same benefits, I am not sure.
I don't know if anyone would be interested in starting a group for the 5/2 plan or those doing moderate protein/strength training. It might be easier than discussing it here.
I am not planning on fasting but am lowering my protein to 1g/kg/day and hoping this does not affect my ability to gain a little muscle. I would be interested in following anyone doing anything similar.0 -
I don't know if anyone would be interested in starting a group for the 5/2 plan or those doing moderate protein/strength training. It might be easier than discussing it here.
I am not planning on fasting but am lowering my protein to 1g/kg/day and hoping this does not affect my ability to gain a little muscle. I would be interested in following anyone doing anything similar.
Yes, count me in! What shall we call it?!0 -
@jsl_mfp
It's just 1 link, and they've just summarised what Michael Mosley ended up doing in the end which is split-meals non-consecutive days.
Like others, I am not sure which is better, doing a longer fast of consecutive days or doing intermittent 2 day fasts. Maybe 2 bursts of fasting is better cumulatively whereas doing 2-day fasts might only get 75% of the benefits. More importantly, I think, is sticking to one thing then you could say confidently that one method works. 2 months later one could try something else. I can't safely say what the results are for me, after 2 weeks, due to lack of proper measuring, a little bit of overindulgence in between (last weekend was a cheesecake and ice-cream pigout), and all the vegetables are clogging me up, not sleeping well, so I am not feeling all too great, but I am sure my body is adjusting. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that if I stick with it for 2-3 more weeks, I will see the results. Also, I've been slacking on the exercise, and it's such a huge complement to this (or any) diet, and I think that's a rather big step second step (undoubtedly though, diet is more important than exercise). Exercise aids digestion massively, so I think it is critical for those who are not used to so much fiber in their diet (I am trying water + lemon atm to help digestion).
Someone else's review of the program: Just been emailed a link by EarlyToRise: http://www.eatstopeat.com/bbcdiet.shtml?utm_expid=7760520-3
Overall, my decision making in doing 2 consucutive days of fasting has been revolving around:
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/healthreport/caloric-restrictions-and-occasional-fasting/3995760
I suspect they're the source of all the actual experiments. By doing 2 consecutive days, it is much easier to have a 1 x 24-hour gap (the longest gap in 2 days), whereas on a non-consecutive diet, if you start eating mid-day on your fast day, and resume eating at 8am on a feed-day, that's 20 hours fast (not to mention most people prefer to have 2 meals so they're barely fasting; I think one has to feel hungry and it's perfectly normal to learn to deal with it).
The idea that grabs me, and I quote from the URL above:
"Our ancestors and certainly animals in the wild tend to have limited resources and they have to go off on extended periods of time without food. Feast or famine. And our genes and every cell in our body are geared towards that type of intermittent energy intake. More recently we all eat now, or some of us anyway, three meals a day, but from the standpoint of evolution that’s abnormal. So we were interested to understand at least initially in laboratory animals and then in humans, if we manipulate dietary energy intake, particularly reducing energy intake either in a controlled daily way of what we call intermittent energy restriction, where for example every other day we greatly reduce the amount of calories or maybe two days a week fast or have very low calorie intake.
So what you’re trying to do was in fact imitate evolution, rather than previous research in calorie restriction which was calorie restriction every day of the animal’s life?
That’s right, exactly. What we’re finding in fact when we directly compare intermittent energy restriction to daily calorie restriction, we find that the intermittent energy restriction has more powerful effects in enhancing the ability of nerve cells to cope with stress and resist disease and if we can get into what’s actually going on in the nerve cells...".
And in line with the results on animals on Alzheimer's and Parkinson's diseases, only by experiencing hunger through fasting for extended period of time will trigger our bodies into survival/repair mode, and fight neural diseases and grow new brain cells. The animals tested upon had a 24 hour gap between their energy intake.
Also, in the URL above, the studies on asthma patients were on 2 consecutive days of fasting (600 kcal per day). Unfortunately as we know, there was no group to do non-consecutive days, so we can't compare the benefits. And yes, Michael Mosley himself got great results doing the non-consecutive variant, but I think he was dieting for a few days before (3.5 day fast and was going through all sorts of diets in the programme) and I don't recall him wating for his indicators to drop to the unhealthy level before doing the 5/2, so his results on non-consecutive fast days were not controlled. Unless I missed something? One can only try.
Today: feast-day. Chocolate peanuts oooooooooooooo0 -
Hello,
For danfast84 - I re-watched the programme yesterday and he said 55g of protein a day as a recommend dec intake on this diet.
I ate 45g of protein on my fast day so that's fine. I intentionally ate protein with each meal, because it helps me to not feel massively hungry. Green tea is alright for me, I don't seem to be effected much by caffeine haha. I can drink a cup of coffee minutes before bed and be fine.
Results so far - sustainable fat loss is what is important for me currently.
I haven't weighed myself, but I have been measuring myself. I did just 1 fast day last week, to get used to it, and I lost 2 cm off of my waist, 2 cm off my hips and 1cm off my thighs and 0.5cm off my arm.
The fact that I've consistently shrunk all over my body - arms and legs too - makes me think there must have been a bit of fat loss.
I did my 2nd fast yesterday, I had just a little cereal for breakfast and then nothing until evening. It was so much easier than the first time I fasted. Infact my tummy only grumbled a couple of times. I wasn't even hungry this morning.
Great. Going to try 2 fasts this week.
I hope this is effective because I feel so much happier being able to eat 'normally' through the week and just concentrate on a couple of days on measuring calories. It's liberating!
X0 -
I started this Monday, I'm on my 2nd fasting day of the week (I'm doing one day on one day off).
It's going well, that heavens for miso soup :laugh:0 -
2nd week day 1 of my two day consecutive fast. Last week I lost 2.6ibs even though I had a pig out day on cakes and sweet treats. It's tuff to eat 500 cals in one go but I suppose it depends what meal you are having etc..
I split it btw breakfast and lunch and then stopped eating. 1 week down 4 to go. Hopefully I can lose a stone like in the program.0 -
am doing 5:2 and would be interested in joining a group , was just wondering if there was one.0
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am doing 5:2 and would be interested in joining a group , was just wondering if there was one.
Don't think so - fancy starting one? I'll join!0 -
have just joined this one, Fasting Protocols which covers different fasting tchniques. am not sure enough of myself to be admin of a group ,lol but would like to join if someone does start a 5:2 one.0
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have just joined this one, Fasting Protocols which covers different fasting tchniques. am not sure enough of myself to be admin of a group ,lol but would like to join if someone does start a 5:2 one.
Ah yes, the protocols group - I'm going to get in there, but would like to join a specific 5:2 one also. Perhaps if we drop enough hints ...0 -
have just joined this one, Fasting Protocols which covers different fasting tchniques. am not sure enough of myself to be admin of a group ,lol but would like to join if someone does start a 5:2 one.
Ah yes, the protocols group - I'm going to get in there, but would like to join a specific 5:2 one also. Perhaps if we drop enough hints ...
was rather hoping someone would start a specific one :ohwell:0 -
have just joined this one, Fasting Protocols which covers different fasting tchniques. am not sure enough of myself to be admin of a group ,lol but would like to join if someone does start a 5:2 one.
No reason why you can't make a 5:2 topic in the group.
Good idea!0 -
I watched the horizon program too - very interesting! I mentioned it to someone I work with and he told me he'd been doing the 5:2 diet since February and had dropped from 56kg to 49kg (he is teeny btw).
I have now done two weeks on the 5:2 and have lost 5lbs and 1.25in off my waist, amazing! I try to eat my maintenance calories or less on the other days and have been hitting the gym at the same time. A couple of days I have gone way over maintenance though so I'm pleased to see the weight is still dropping.
Overall its been easy enough to stick to, I have one 400-500cal meal at lunch (couscous bulked out with courgette and grilled chicken breast makes a huge volume of food for those calories). However sleeping has been hard - I'm so excited about breakfast the next morning it feels like christmas eve!
Also - on the normal days I have huge cravings for sugary food, which I don't usually - anyone else experienced this??0 -
I watched the horizon program too - very interesting! I mentioned it to someone I work with and he told me he'd been doing the 5:2 diet since February and had dropped from 56kg to 49kg (he is teeny btw).
I have now done two weeks on the 5:2 and have lost 5lbs and 1.25in off my waist, amazing! I try to eat my maintenance calories or less on the other days and have been hitting the gym at the same time. A couple of days I have gone way over maintenance though so I'm pleased to see the weight is still dropping.
Overall its been easy enough to stick to, I have one 400-500cal meal at lunch (couscous bulked out with courgette and grilled chicken breast makes a huge volume of food for those calories). However sleeping has been hard - I'm so excited about breakfast the next morning it feels like christmas eve!
Also - on the normal days I have huge cravings for sugary food, which I don't usually - anyone else experienced this??
I've just done week 2 fast 2 and found that I'm looking for sweet stuff the next day too. Have you noticed that you're hungry and looking for meals a bit earlier than usual the next day too?
Would anyone like to post a link to the 5:2 group please? I don't know how to find it / join. Thanks0 -
Yes definitely - I can usually have a shower and things when I get up and have breakfast afterwards but on the day after a fast I need food as soon as I wake up and the hunger is never fully satisfied! Which makes sense I suppose considering I'm working on around a 1600cal deficit from the day before! I would need to have two breakfasts and two large dinners to make up for that - which is why it works I suppose!0
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I've been doing this since Monday and I feel good 0
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I do one day fast, one day off, cont.
If anyone else is doing on/off/on/off please add me up!0 -
I do one day fast, one day off, cont.
If anyone else is doing on/off/on/off please add me up!
am doing somewhere between 5:2 and alternate day , depending on what am doing socially, happy to add and compare.
ps there is now a 5:2 topic section on the Fasting Protocols group mentioned above, courtesy of Pu_239.0 -
I've just done week 2 fast 2 and found that I'm looking for sweet stuff the next day too. Have you noticed that you're hungry and looking for meals a bit earlier than usual the next day too?
Would anyone like to post a link to the 5:2 group please? I don't know how to find it / join. Thanks
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/groups/home/7916-fasting-protocols
just click join group. I guess i'll make the 5/2 topic since no one else has.
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Thank you! 0 -
Now I am back to work after the school holidays, I am back on the 5:2 diet. I did it yesterday and I consumed 545 calories. I am finding it hard to hit 500 calories. I agree, I am very hungry on the non fast days. It seems that I have lost weight but I will be sure when I weight in next Monday.0
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Just wondering on everybody's progress.
I been fasting on Monday, Wednesday and Friday since the horizon programme and so far have kept to it. On those days I eat only at supper and consume around 600 calories....and occasionally a little more if I've also done some exercise during the day.
Results so far.
Weight down to 78.7kg fom 84 kg
Bodyfat down by 4.5%
Subjectively I feel a whole lot healthier with more energy. However, sometimes find it hard to sleep as well on the fasting days.
Am thinking about getting blood test done so I can measure more objectively....anybody else done that.?
Finding the fasting days quite easy now and really only experience a dip in energy at around 4:00pm....but it doesn't last for long.
As per the programme I've also cut down my protein intake and looking at my results nearly all my weight loss has come from fat rather than lean muscle..
So far so good....it's starting to become more lifestyle for me.
Would be interested in hearing the results, observations etc of others....0 -
bump0
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I watched the Horizon programme almost eight weeks ago, and my husband and I have been doing the 5:2 version for the last 7 weeks. I've lost eight kgs, as has my husband, his psoriasis has virtually disappeared, and we both feel great. We mostly watch what we eat the rest of the time too, with at least one "cheat day" at the weekend.
The fasting part gets easier too, once your brain realises that you're not going to starve, and rather than bingeing when we come off the fast days, we seem to naturally ease in to eating, with a much greater awareness and appreciation of what goes in our mouth. Another bonus is that our shopping bill has gone down.
If you're wavering, I'd say give it a go.0 -
I've done 6 weeks and lost 12 lbs. I find I feel a bit apprehensive when starting a fast day, but that goes about half way through. I find it hard to cook dinner without snacking.0
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Interesting! bump0
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Hi there
I am just starting this diet, have managed two days this week, fast day tomorrow. I know the jury is out re whether to eat the cals at one go, but just wondered what you guys are doing? Cheers clair0 -
I eat every day after 4pm. I am feeling absolutely great!! This is finally the lifestyle for me!!! I feel so much more energy when I am not digesting food all the time 0
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