You Are Not Different
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You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat).
Why are you arguing Lyle's statement? He never said you couldn't gain LBM on a caloric deficit. He said you couldn't gain BODYMASS on a caloric deficit. Whole different animal. Look again at what you quoted. The information was there the whole time.
I have "looked again" again. You're focusing on the word BODYMASS, yet he clarifies at the end of the sentence that in his opinion you can't gain either muscle of fat eating at a deficit. Seems pretty plain to me. Or are you saying we should just ignore that last part?
I am still trying to find what you are referring to because I am honestly confused where you are seeing this. You seem to like extracting quotes - doing so in this case would probably clear up a lot of the confusion that appears to be happening.
ETA: I in no way disagree with you on your comments about gaining LBM while on a deficit when someone is obese, and in fact have made the same point in this and other threads, so I am definately not trying to debate that point:0 -
I think you're missing the point. Our basic physiology is the same, with some variables set higher or lower.People on forums are sheep. The snowflake saying cracks me up. Someone made it up and now everyone throws it out there. Sorry everyone is an individual unless you have an identical twin.
Cant wait for the next years buzzwords to come out so you sheep can use it in every sentence.
Signed,
Opinionated Snowflake0 -
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Great article0
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Great article.......I am not different.....just diet resistant.....0
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People on forums are sheep. The snowflake saying cracks me up. Someone made it up and now everyone throws it out there. Sorry everyone is an individual unless you have an identical twin.
Cant wait for the next years buzzwords to come out so you sheep can use it in every sentence.
Signed,
Opinionated Snowflake
So, rather than insulting everyone that agrees with the post, why don't you point out what you do not specifically?0 -
No one should make excuses, and MANY people fool themselves into hopelessness, but people certainly do have vast metabolic differences when it comes to muscle gain(especially) and fat loss.0
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At this point you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, or perhaps to demonstrate your pomposity. Luckily, I think most can see that plainly. For those that can't, I just pointed it out. Carry on.You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat).
Why are you arguing Lyle's statement? He never said you couldn't gain LBM on a caloric deficit. He said you couldn't gain BODYMASS on a caloric deficit. Whole different animal. Look again at what you quoted. The information was there the whole time.
I have "looked again" again. You're focusing on the word BODYMASS, yet he clarifies at the end of the sentence that in his opinion you can't gain either muscle of fat eating at a deficit. Seems pretty plain to me. Or are you saying we should just ignore that last part?0 -
I am still trying to find what you are referring to because I am honestly confused where you are seeing this. You seem to like extracting quotes - doing so in this case would probably clear up a lot of the confusion that appears to be happening.
ETA: I in no way disagree with you on your comments about gaining LBM while on a deficit when someone is obese, and in fact have made the same point in this and other threads, so I am definately not trying to debate that point:
So it sounds like we may be closer together on this issue that you realize. I'm not saying EVERYTHING he wrote is incorrect, but I do have 2 serious issues with his article:
1. The aforementioned statement that you can't gain LBM eating at a deficit. (I'll get to this in a minute), and
2. The remainder of the article where he talks about how some people are different, yet then goes on to say no one is different.
I think the reason I find this so offensive is because there is quite a bit of information that comes out of the bodybuilding world (such as most of this author's stuff), that simply DOES NOT APPLY to those of us that are more than 30 lbs overweight. Tons of people on MFP post stuff that may be great advice for someone trying to go from 12% to 8% BF, but is terrible advice for an obese person. The reverse is also true. Physiologically, there are some serious hormonal differences between an obese body and one just carrying a few extra pounds. As a result, we just can't make these type of generalizations. An example would be statements like "it's all about thermodynamics, just eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight." It sounds good, but it discounts the fact that our bodies are not just simple machines that respond exactly the same every time. Even the author know that or he wouldn't have made his money hyping various modified eating plans, macro requirements, etc,, and wouldn't have talked at length in this article about how some people have to really struggle to lose fat.
As to the quote that started my rant (yes I recognize it as such),
That is quoted from the article and is the place where I got so turned off by this guys stuff. I could easily re-write this sentence without changing the meaning by simply eliminating the parenthetical statement and instead putting it where the antecedent "something" is at: "You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can't make muscle or fat out of nothing." Further, just to clarify, if you remove the words "or fat" from the statement it becomes "You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can't make muscle out of nothing."You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat).
This is still the same statement. I'm not sure why you can't see that, but I suppose it's because you're a fan of this author.0 -
No one should make excuses, and MANY people fool themselves into hopelessness, but people certainly do have vast metabolic differences when it comes to muscle gain(especially) and fat loss.
Well said.0 -
I think you're missing the point. Our basic physiology is the same, with some variables set higher or lower.People on forums are sheep. The snowflake saying cracks me up. Someone made it up and now everyone throws it out there. Sorry everyone is an individual unless you have an identical twin.
Cant wait for the next years buzzwords to come out so you sheep can use it in every sentence.
Signed,
Opinionated Snowflake
Or she just needs to put other people down to try to make herself feel superior and effete?0 -
At this point you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, or perhaps to demonstrate your pomposity. Luckily, I think most can see that plainly. For those that can't, I just pointed it out. Carry on.You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat).
Why are you arguing Lyle's statement? He never said you couldn't gain LBM on a caloric deficit. He said you couldn't gain BODYMASS on a caloric deficit. Whole different animal. Look again at what you quoted. The information was there the whole time.
I have "looked again" again. You're focusing on the word BODYMASS, yet he clarifies at the end of the sentence that in his opinion you can't gain either muscle of fat eating at a deficit. Seems pretty plain to me. Or are you saying we should just ignore that last part?
My money is on the demontrating the pomposity part!0 -
People on forums are sheep. The snowflake saying cracks me up. Someone made it up and now everyone throws it out there. Sorry everyone is an individual unless you have an identical twin.
Cant wait for the next years buzzwords to come out so you sheep can use it in every sentence.
Signed,
Opinionated Snowflake
Hate to break it to you, but the whole 'special snowflake' idiom has been around for some years. Maybe you should watch Fight Club.
ETA: This is a great thread and I'm coming back to read this whenever my inner entitled American corner-cutter wants me to think differently about physics.0 -
I am still trying to find what you are referring to because I am honestly confused where you are seeing this. You seem to like extracting quotes - doing so in this case would probably clear up a lot of the confusion that appears to be happening.
ETA: I in no way disagree with you on your comments about gaining LBM while on a deficit when someone is obese, and in fact have made the same point in this and other threads, so I am definately not trying to debate that point:
So it sounds like we may be closer together on this issue that you realize. I'm not saying EVERYTHING he wrote is incorrect, but I do have 2 serious issues with his article:
1. The aforementioned statement that you can't gain LBM eating at a deficit. (I'll get to this in a minute), and
2. The remainder of the article where he talks about how some people are different, yet then goes on to say no one is different.
I think the reason I find this so offensive is because there is quite a bit of information that comes out of the bodybuilding world (such as most of this author's stuff), that simply DOES NOT APPLY to those of us that are more than 30 lbs overweight. Tons of people on MFP post stuff that may be great advice for someone trying to go from 12% to 8% BF, but is terrible advice for an obese person. The reverse is also true. Physiologically, there are some serious hormonal differences between an obese body and one just carrying a few extra pounds. As a result, we just can't make these type of generalizations. An example would be statements like "it's all about thermodynamics, just eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight." It sounds good, but it discounts the fact that our bodies are not just simple machines that respond exactly the same every time. Even the author know that or he wouldn't have made his money hyping various modified eating plans, macro requirements, etc,, and wouldn't have talked at length in this article about how some people have to really struggle to lose fat.
As to the quote that started my rant (yes I recognize it as such),
That is quoted from the article and is the place where I got so turned off by this guys stuff. I could easily re-write this sentence without changing the meaning by simply eliminating the parenthetical statement and instead putting it where the antecedent "something" is at: "You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can't make muscle or fat out of nothing." Further, just to clarify, if you remove the words "or fat" from the statement it becomes "You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can't make muscle out of nothing."You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat).
This is still the same statement. I'm not sure why you can't see that, but I suppose it's because you're a fan of this author.
I agree that I do like Lyle's articles and conclusions - he is very solid in his nutrition advice. But, that does not mean that I accept everything at face value. You say I cannot see something because I am a fan, I can easily flip that and say the opposite of you.
So, back to the point. I agree with you that a lot of information thrown out does not necessarily apply to obese individuals, including the sometimes generalized comment of 'you cannot gain muscle on a deficit' - which we both agree on.
The specifc quote you are talking about does NOT say you cannot gain LBM on a deficit - it says you cannot gain bodymass on a deficit. You are not making something our of nothing when you are using energy from fat stores and your body subsequently, through resistance training etc, uses that energy to increase muscle mass. Maybe his article could have been worded differently to make it clearer. I am not sure why you cannot see the point that is being made here.
If you can point me to specific studies that show a group of people gaining bodymass (excluding water weight obviously) on a deficit, I would be very interested to see them.
ETA: I see from a post below that you agree that you cannot gain bodymass on a deficit.0 -
My money is on the demontrating the pomposity part!
Ad hominem attacks eh? Always a good way to win any argument! Personally I blame Hitler. We've already gone way past civility into meaningless attacks. We might as well take this to it's logical conclusion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law0 -
I am now a total Lyle McDonald fan! Thanks for posting!0
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I haven't read all the replies because there are way too many to get through so I hope this hadn't been covered already but I have two questions about the OP that maybe somebody can answer for me.
I have anorexia nervosa. I have been hospitalised on several occasions as a result of my ED. During each admission, I was initially on bed rest for many weeks or months and I was given a set diet of 3,500 kcal/day. On every admission, without fail, I would LOSE weight on 3,500 kcals (coming from eating an extremely low calorie diet - I won't quote numbers in case it's triggering). I was always dehydrated on admission so I know my fluid balance was probably out of whack but it still doesn't explain other week's loses.
On the flip side, I went through a period of rapid weight GAIN some years later, eating very little. Now I know it was mentioned in the OP about people under-reporting what they ate and how much. The only people who definitely don't do that are anorexics, instead we will hugely overestimate how much we've eaten "just in case" (case in point: today I ate 4 peanut halves out of a 100g/3.5 ounce bag but logged it as half the bag, which means that I've logged 4 peanut halves as 300 kcals and have been tracking my kcals this way for more than 20 years!). I was told I needed to eat more by a RD and, sure enough, many, many months later my weight evened out and dropped again.
Any ideas on what was happening there?0 -
I am still trying to find what you are referring to because I am honestly confused where you are seeing this. You seem to like extracting quotes - doing so in this case would probably clear up a lot of the confusion that appears to be happening.
ETA: I in no way disagree with you on your comments about gaining LBM while on a deficit when someone is obese, and in fact have made the same point in this and other threads, so I am definately not trying to debate that point:
So it sounds like we may be closer together on this issue that you realize. I'm not saying EVERYTHING he wrote is incorrect, but I do have 2 serious issues with his article:
1. The aforementioned statement that you can't gain LBM eating at a deficit. (I'll get to this in a minute), and
2. The remainder of the article where he talks about how some people are different, yet then goes on to say no one is different.
I think the reason I find this so offensive is because there is quite a bit of information that comes out of the bodybuilding world (such as most of this author's stuff), that simply DOES NOT APPLY to those of us that are more than 30 lbs overweight. Tons of people on MFP post stuff that may be great advice for someone trying to go from 12% to 8% BF, but is terrible advice for an obese person. The reverse is also true. Physiologically, there are some serious hormonal differences between an obese body and one just carrying a few extra pounds. As a result, we just can't make these type of generalizations. An example would be statements like "it's all about thermodynamics, just eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight." It sounds good, but it discounts the fact that our bodies are not just simple machines that respond exactly the same every time. Even the author know that or he wouldn't have made his money hyping various modified eating plans, macro requirements, etc,, and wouldn't have talked at length in this article about how some people have to really struggle to lose fat.
As to the quote that started my rant (yes I recognize it as such),
That is quoted from the article and is the place where I got so turned off by this guys stuff. I could easily re-write this sentence without changing the meaning by simply eliminating the parenthetical statement and instead putting it where the antecedent "something" is at: "You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can't make muscle or fat out of nothing." Further, just to clarify, if you remove the words "or fat" from the statement it becomes "You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can't make muscle out of nothing."You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat).
This is still the same statement. I'm not sure why you can't see that, but I suppose it's because you're a fan of this author.
Well said!
I have trouble seeing why so many people love the OPs essay so much. Those differences between people that he DOES grant - those differences can be really important. Yes, sure, the same basic laws of physics apply to all, but at the same time it's true that people's body chemistry can vary in really significant ways. Maybe I just don't understand what it is the OP is reacting TO. As someone who has "different" reactions than the majority to a lot of things, it seems to me that if anything, there is too much of an assumption in the world that everyone is the same.
This doesn't mean I think of myself as a "special snowflake" and I don't fart glitter! But the assumption that everyone is the same is a dangerous one. I don't know how many times I've had a doctor tell me "that shouldn't happen," in response to a reaction to some drug. Then it turns out that in fact that side effect was reported by x% of people in studies. If the x% is small enough, the medical profession just ignores it. ...I know I'm straying from the topic of weight loss, but I think the same principle applies.0 -
I am still trying to find what you are referring to because I am honestly confused where you are seeing this. You seem to like extracting quotes - doing so in this case would probably clear up a lot of the confusion that appears to be happening.
ETA: I in no way disagree with you on your comments about gaining LBM while on a deficit when someone is obese, and in fact have made the same point in this and other threads, so I am definately not trying to debate that point:
So it sounds like we may be closer together on this issue that you realize. I'm not saying EVERYTHING he wrote is incorrect, but I do have 2 serious issues with his article:
1. The aforementioned statement that you can't gain LBM eating at a deficit. (I'll get to this in a minute), and
2. The remainder of the article where he talks about how some people are different, yet then goes on to say no one is different.
I think the reason I find this so offensive is because there is quite a bit of information that comes out of the bodybuilding world (such as most of this author's stuff), that simply DOES NOT APPLY to those of us that are more than 30 lbs overweight. Tons of people on MFP post stuff that may be great advice for someone trying to go from 12% to 8% BF, but is terrible advice for an obese person. The reverse is also true. Physiologically, there are some serious hormonal differences between an obese body and one just carrying a few extra pounds. As a result, we just can't make these type of generalizations. An example would be statements like "it's all about thermodynamics, just eat less than you burn and you'll lose weight." It sounds good, but it discounts the fact that our bodies are not just simple machines that respond exactly the same every time. Even the author know that or he wouldn't have made his money hyping various modified eating plans, macro requirements, etc,, and wouldn't have talked at length in this article about how some people have to really struggle to lose fat.
As to the quote that started my rant (yes I recognize it as such),
That is quoted from the article and is the place where I got so turned off by this guys stuff. I could easily re-write this sentence without changing the meaning by simply eliminating the parenthetical statement and instead putting it where the antecedent "something" is at: "You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can't make muscle or fat out of nothing." Further, just to clarify, if you remove the words "or fat" from the statement it becomes "You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can't make muscle out of nothing."You can’t gain bodymass unless your energy intake exceeds your energy output because you can’t make something out of nothing (muscle or fat).
This is still the same statement. I'm not sure why you can't see that, but I suppose it's because you're a fan of this author.
OK so I want to see if I'm understanding you correctly.
A 400 lb man (total body mass) eats 1800 cals a day (deficit) doing resistance training will end up being 430 lbs (total body mass)
or are you saying
A 400 lb man (total body mass) has 200 lb LBM eats 1800 cals a day (deficit) doing resistance training will end up being 350 lbs (total body mass) with (220 LBM) which is an increase in LBM but a decrease in total body mass.0 -
OK so I want to see if I'm understanding you correctly.
A 400 lb man (total body mass) eats 1800 cals a day (deficit) doing resistance training will end up being 430 lbs (total body mass)
or are you saying
A 400 lb man (total body mass) has 200 lb LBM eats 1800 cals a day (deficit) doing resistance training will end up being 350 lbs (total body mass) with (220 LBM) which is an increase in LBM but a decrease in total body mass.
The later. Apart from what some people seem to think, I'm not daft enough to think the former. And honestly I'd be pretty surprised if it was 220 LBM. That's 10% and would be hard to do. You'd probably have to do everything just right for that to happen.0
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