Fat Head is an awesome documentary.

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  • Spartan_Maker
    Spartan_Maker Posts: 683 Member
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    I think the documentary raises an interesting question that no one ever really addresses: Do insulin spikes matter in a calorie deficit?

    As you can see from this thread, there are those who think that if calories and protein are held constant, insulin spikes are inconsequential. On the other hand, low carb advocates believe that they have a significant impact on body composition, by preventing the body from accessing fat stores.

    It seems to me to depend on whether insulin spikes can outlast calories. Assume, for instance, that a person wakes up and has a large glass of concentrated grape juice and a giant bagel -- not a completely outlandish hypothetical. Is it likely that this person's insulin will remain elevated longer than the calories from that food will be available for energy? If so, during this gap in time, is access to fat stores completely cut off? If it is, low carb advocates would seem to have an argument. If not, it's quite a bit about nothing.

    There is nothing wrong with a low carb diet if that's what suits an individual but I think this is really short term thinking. Okay so what if my lunch has hardly any carbs at all? Very low insulin spike and you use the rest of the stores through the rest of the day. These minute details are almost (notice the almost here) irrelevent to the average dieter. If fat use exceeds storage, do most of the other details matter?

    ETA: Maybe its obvious I just read this yesterday:

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/fundamental-principles-versus-minor-details.html

    The article makes a value judgment and arguably a good point. However, I don't make value judgments for others and it really doesn't advance the academic issue.
  • AllTehBeers
    AllTehBeers Posts: 5,030 Member
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    The article makes a value judgment and arguably a good point. However, I don't make value judgments for others and it really doesn't advance the academic issue.

    If you wish to argue the very fine points of fat storage, oxidation, and glycogen depletion, I'm not that versed yet (yes I admit to not knowing everything). From what I've learned so far I think the small details don't matter so much in average people.
  • Spartan_Maker
    Spartan_Maker Posts: 683 Member
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    The article makes a value judgment and arguably a good point. However, I don't make value judgments for others and it really doesn't advance the academic issue.

    If you wish to argue the very fine points of fat storage, oxidation, and glycogen depletion, I'm not that versed yet (yes I admit to not knowing everything). From what I've learned so far I think the small details don't matter so much in average people.

    I'm not especially versed either; that's why I posed the questions. Small details, over time, can cumulate into something quite significant, however, especially for people who are interested in optimal body composition, which is about 95% of those on MFP.
  • gendril
    gendril Posts: 12
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    "Super-Size Me" fraud ?

    How is that a fraud? If you eat a ton of MD you will get sick!
  • AllTehBeers
    AllTehBeers Posts: 5,030 Member
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    The article makes a value judgment and arguably a good point. However, I don't make value judgments for others and it really doesn't advance the academic issue.

    If you wish to argue the very fine points of fat storage, oxidation, and glycogen depletion, I'm not that versed yet (yes I admit to not knowing everything). From what I've learned so far I think the small details don't matter so much in average people.

    I'm not especially versed either; that's why I posed the questions. Small details, over time, can cumulate into something quite significant, however, especially for people who are interested in optimal body composition, which is about 95% of those on MFP.

    I think that depends. There are a lot of people here working on "optimal" body composition, which I read as less then 20% body fat. There are others who are in the obese stage just trying to get to the "just overweight" stage and I think there are different goals for each.
  • Spartan_Maker
    Spartan_Maker Posts: 683 Member
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    The article makes a value judgment and arguably a good point. However, I don't make value judgments for others and it really doesn't advance the academic issue.

    If you wish to argue the very fine points of fat storage, oxidation, and glycogen depletion, I'm not that versed yet (yes I admit to not knowing everything). From what I've learned so far I think the small details don't matter so much in average people.

    I'm not especially versed either; that's why I posed the questions. Small details, over time, can cumulate into something quite significant, however, especially for people who are interested in optimal body composition, which is about 95% of those on MFP.

    I think that depends. There are a lot of people here working on "optimal" body composition, which I read as less then 20% body fat. There are others who are in the obese stage just trying to get to the "just overweight" stage and I think there are different goals for each.

    Yes: to put a slightly finer point on it. "[L]ess then 20% body fat" if the focus is exclusively on women. If men are included, it's more often below 10%, to put an even finer point on the tangent.
  • JLD81
    JLD81 Posts: 133 Member
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    I watched the trailer for this just now. I will have to watch it. While I don't think I am going to agree with the totality of what he has to say, I do believe that the government should not regulate what people can buy themselves. First, we can't win the war on drugs so we are going to try to rage a war on fast food and obesity? Waste of time and money. Unhealthy people will choose to be unhealthy even if it means eating 7 pieces of chicken at lunch instead of one.

    I do believe that we need more truth in labeling and access to nutrition and ingredient information from the restaurants. Let people who WANT to eat healthy be able to make informed decisions.
  • Iamjulianna
    Iamjulianna Posts: 3
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    I ate low carb for about five years straight and I wish I never did! It would take two weeks to get to a point I didn't feel exhausted all the time then if I ate carbs it would start the whole cycle over again to get my body burning fat again. I wish I was never exposed to that line of thinking. It took me years to come to the understanding of just how bad I felt and the need my body had for carbs. I also had a major personal discovery of the glycemic index and how important slow burning carbs are for hunger control. Now I simply watch my calories, balance my carbs, proteins, and fats as recommended and avoid quick burning carbs in excess. I have no problems at all staying within my calorie goals and I feel good. I never want to go around like a zombie again with out carbs. I am on my wife's user name so this is written by a man, if you care.
  • jofjltncb6
    jofjltncb6 Posts: 34,415 Member
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    I ate low carb for about five years straight and I wish I never did! It would take two weeks to get to a point I didn't feel exhausted all the time then if I ate carbs it would start the whole cycle over again to get my body burning fat again. I wish I was never exposed to that line of thinking. It took me years to come to the understanding of just how bad I felt and the need my body had for carbs. I also had a major personal discovery of the glycemic index and how important slow burning carbs are for hunger control. Now I simply watch my calories, balance my carbs, proteins, and fats as recommended and avoid quick burning carbs in excess. I have no problems at all staying within my calorie goals and I feel good. I never want to go around like a zombie again with out carbs. I am on my wife's user name so this is written by a man, if you care.

    Although I am not a VLC follower myself (although I do tend to be <150g carb daily), from what I know of it, I'd say you were doing it wrong. (Alternatively, perhaps it just wasn't a good fit for you.)
  • nkyjennifer
    nkyjennifer Posts: 135 Member
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    It's always good to view documentaries with some objectivity, but I did enjoy Fat Head. The idea that I don't have to order a super size meal (or fries, or a coke for that matter!) just because the person taking my order asks me to. It's a personal responsibility thing.

    The thing I was fascinated most by, though, was the information on the Lipid Hypothesis, which I've researched quite a bit since I watched the movie.

    I'm absolutely not a low carber, but I did change the MFP default for my settings to 40% of cals from carbs. I definitely feel better for it.
  • AllTehBeers
    AllTehBeers Posts: 5,030 Member
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    It's always good to view documentaries with some objectivity, but I did enjoy Fat Head. The idea that I don't have to order a super size meal (or fries, or a coke for that matter!) just because the person taking my order asks me to. It's a personal responsibility thing.

    This absolutely. One of the first things I changed in my diet was what I ordered at fast food places. Instead of a large big mac meal, I would get a regular hamburger and small fries. As I do this longer, I hardly eat fast food because I want to really be able to enjoy those cheats. I'll always make room for a slice of pizza.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    It's always good to view documentaries with some objectivity, but I did enjoy Fat Head. The idea that I don't have to order a super size meal (or fries, or a coke for that matter!) just because the person taking my order asks me to. It's a personal responsibility thing.

    I do not mean to be facetious so please forgive me if that is how my question sounds but, did you not already know this? When someone in a position to sell you something offers you something more than what you asked for as a 'bargin", they are not really doing it for your benefit are they? They are upselling. I've never been a big fast food eater but when I have, I ordered what I had chosen and declined the upsell. I didn't want to spend more and I didn't want to eat more. I think it's dangerous territory when we start blaming people who's mission it is to sell us stuff for the fact that we buy it. (not that you are doing that) It is all about our own intentional and, theoretically, informed choices.
  • Phaedra2014
    Phaedra2014 Posts: 1,254 Member
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    Did you ever take the time to consider that both docs are equally crappy?

    Supersize Me- Eat in a surplus, gain weight

    FatHead - Eat in a deficit, lose weight

    Woah!

    Yep.

    Moreover, both had nutrient deficient diets. It's not "just" about the numbers but overall health too. I have a profound dislike for sensationalism one way or the other.
  • AllTehBeers
    AllTehBeers Posts: 5,030 Member
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    It's always good to view documentaries with some objectivity, but I did enjoy Fat Head. The idea that I don't have to order a super size meal (or fries, or a coke for that matter!) just because the person taking my order asks me to. It's a personal responsibility thing.

    I do not mean to be facetious so please forgive me if that is how my question sounds but, did you not already know this? When someone in a position to sell you something offers you something more than what you asked for as a 'bargin", they are not really doing it for your benefit are they? They are upselling. I've never been a big fast food eater but when I have, I ordered what I had chosen and declined the upsell. I didn't want to spend more and I didn't want to eat more. I think it's dangerous territory when we start blaming people who's mission it is to sell us stuff for the fact that we buy it. (not that you are doing that) It is all about our own intentional and, theoretically, informed choices.

    I'm pretty sure she's talking about people in general taking responsibility for personal choices instead of having some political figure head ban certain sizes of sodas in their "fight of obesity."
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    It's always good to view documentaries with some objectivity, but I did enjoy Fat Head. The idea that I don't have to order a super size meal (or fries, or a coke for that matter!) just because the person taking my order asks me to. It's a personal responsibility thing.

    I do not mean to be facetious so please forgive me if that is how my question sounds but, did you not already know this? When someone in a position to sell you something offers you something more than what you asked for as a 'bargin", they are not really doing it for your benefit are they? They are upselling. I've never been a big fast food eater but when I have, I ordered what I had chosen and declined the upsell. I didn't want to spend more and I didn't want to eat more. I think it's dangerous territory when we start blaming people who's mission it is to sell us stuff for the fact that we buy it. (not that you are doing that) It is all about our own intentional and, theoretically, informed choices.

    I'm pretty sure she's talking about people in general taking responsibility for personal choices instead of having some political figure head ban certain sizes of sodas in their "fight of obesity."

    Yup, I got that. So am I.
  • fishgutzy
    fishgutzy Posts: 2,807 Member
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    Low carb high fat is not new. It is actually what endocrinologist recommend for type 2 diabetics. I know this because my niece developed gestational diabetes that progressed to type 2. After 6 months of <100g per day and high fat she is no longer clinically diabetic.
    I was prediabetic. But not anymore. The only way to stay that way is to maintain low carbs.
    We are all different and have different needs.
    I found what works for me without feeling weak. I have plenty of energy to workout even if I go to the gym 5 hours after my last food of any kind. But as I get closer to my goal weight and my "stored energy supply" is reduced, that will happen less frequently. Sometimes I am in the pool just a hour after eating. All depends on my schedule for the day.
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    I think the documentary raises an interesting question that no one ever really addresses: Do insulin spikes matter in a calorie deficit?

    As you can see from this thread, there are those who think that if calories and protein are held constant, insulin spikes are inconsequential. On the other hand, low carb advocates believe that they have a significant impact on body composition, by preventing the body from accessing fat stores.

    It seems to me to depend on whether insulin spikes can outlast calories. Assume, for instance, that a person wakes up and has a large glass of concentrated grape juice and a giant bagel -- not a completely outlandish hypothetical. Is it likely that this person's insulin will remain elevated longer than the calories from that food will be available for energy? If so, during this gap in time, is access to fat stores completely cut off? If it is, low carb advocates would seem to have an argument. If not, it's quite a bit about nothing.

    Protein is insulinogenic, better go low carb and low protein to minimize insulin spikes
  • fishgutzy
    fishgutzy Posts: 2,807 Member
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    I think the documentary raises an interesting question that no one ever really addresses: Do insulin spikes matter in a calorie deficit?

    As you can see from this thread, there are those who think that if calories and protein are held constant, insulin spikes are inconsequential. On the other hand, low carb advocates believe that they have a significant impact on body composition, by preventing the body from accessing fat stores.

    It seems to me to depend on whether insulin spikes can outlast calories. Assume, for instance, that a person wakes up and has a large glass of concentrated grape juice and a giant bagel -- not a completely outlandish hypothetical. Is it likely that this person's insulin will remain elevated longer than the calories from that food will be available for energy? If so, during this gap in time, is access to fat stores completely cut off? If it is, low carb advocates would seem to have an argument. If not, it's quite a bit about nothing.

    Protein is insulinogenic, better go low carb and low protein to minimize insulin spikes

    The tracker is helpful in working toward my targets. I still need to up the fat intake and lower protein some more. Carbs are generally below my max target. I know when my protein is getting high because I get *kitten* breath :bigsmile:
  • RobynMWilson
    RobynMWilson Posts: 1,540 Member
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    I'm gonna have to check it out...
  • AsaThorsWoman
    AsaThorsWoman Posts: 2,303 Member
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    Bumping for later. Interesting. I'm eating pasta as we speak. Still under calorie goal. Oops.

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