"If You Do The Same Thing Everyone Else Is Doing...

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Gallowmere1984
Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
in Fitness and Exercise
...You'll suck just as much as they do."

This is intended to be a conversation starter based on the relatively new concept of standardized training. I am sure most of you know what I am talking about, and a few of you have probably espoused the kind of stuff I can't stand, even if you didn't intend to at the time.

Now, for the record, I am not talking about standardization for beginners. It's pretty well accepted that people new to the lifting world have to start somewhere, and getting very familiar with the compounds via high rep sets at relatively low weight is the best way to start. What I am referring to is the people who have been following the same god awful program for years, have made relatively little progress, and believe that they cannot ever be the best possible because they aren't on gear.

Steroids are a shortcut, nothing more. Many world records still stand from an era before steroids even existed, so the argument that they grant some weird 'higher plane' is ridiculous.

Anyway, what I see is a lot of people following said worn out routines, and never achieving anything beyond mediocrity. Most people are happy with "average", and if that's the best they want for themselves, that's on them. I for one cannot grasp the desire to be "just good enough", instead of "the best ever".

I am also extremely allergic to the word 'overtraining', primarily because to me, it implies that human beings suffer from a severe case of suck. I like the old Barbarian Brothers quote, "There is no such thing as overtraining. Only undereating and undersleeping." Of course, the human body has limitations, but these are primarily due to the law of diminishing returns, not some arbitrary line that we cannot move past. Old school strongmen had workout routines that make most current 'elite' lifters look fairly impotent by comparison. Not to mention most of them had hard manual labor jobs that they performed in addition to their training.

I half expect to get completely flamed for this, because it's tipped over a few sacred cows in the modern fitness world. That said, I would be interested in some thoughts on them.

Do you believe that humans in general have devolved into some sorry shell of our former selves, or are people just not willing to "man the **** up" and make themselves physically great anymore? Why are people willing to settle for passable, instead of completely ****ing awesome? By completely ****ing awesome, I mean breakers of world records, not some arbitrary (and probably inflated) opinion of self worth.
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Replies

  • anemoneprose
    anemoneprose Posts: 1,805 Member
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    Overtraining: some of those limitations aren't arbitrary. They're to do with joint inflammation, degenerated cartilage, scar-tissue build-up, etc. I suck way more than I'd like because of that, & I'm probably not the only one.

    Settling: I guess you're talking about performance-minded people, or bodybuilders, or folks who are otherwise professionals in fitness. For me, It took a LOT of mental focus and learning to make the 180 I did. There are a few things I still want to accomplish, but other parts of life have taken priority.

    I probably could seek to 'perfect', but life's short and it's bigger than my body. I'm ecstatic I'm finally living in it, but I want to use it to do other stuff.
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
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    I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'professional'. The most recent powerlifting record was broken by someone who works a 12 hour per day job, and has never received a cent in relation to his lifting. In fact, strength stuff isn't the lucrative industry it used to be. Bodybuilding can still make a fair amount of money, but lifting, not so much anymore. For example, Louis Cyr (a 19th century strongman) made a weekly salary that would be the modern day equivalent to about 48,000. Show me a lifter who makes 2.5 million per year these days just on lifting. :)

    I was also speaking more generally, though I suppose you could look at it from a personal priority perspective. To me, your body is the only thing you have that no one else can easily take away from you (without killing you obviously), so why not perfect it? Everything else is fluff, so to speak. I think that's why hearing people cry about how expensive good food is, and eating garbage while yapping into an iphone pisses me off. Should it? Probably not. However, it's obnoxious all the same.
  • DavPul
    DavPul Posts: 61,406 Member
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    Cliffs?
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
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    Cliffs?

    1: why have people become so set on the idea of following programs designed by people who have never met them, instead of using their brain to figure out what works best for them?

    2: overtraining has become the favorite excuse to bandy around for people sucking. Funny how it was barely ever mentioned 30 years ago, when people in general were in much better shape.

    3: steroids are a shortcut, not some magical crap that turns mere men into gods. Falls under the 'excuses for why I suck' column, same as above.

    4: why are people content with being physically 'average' instead of the best they can be?

    5: have people truly devolved from the strength we used to have, or is it just a case of global laziness?
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
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    Bump. I'd be interested to see some thoughts on this.
  • 3dogsrunning
    3dogsrunning Posts: 27,167 Member
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    Bump. Gotta see the responses.
  • wellbert
    wellbert Posts: 3,924 Member
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    You follow Jamie's blog too huh?
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
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    You follow Jamie's blog too huh?

    Obviously. He's listed as my top inspiration, and he's what got me to stop being a sorry sack of ****. Unlike most of the people I see on here who seem to need a bunch of justification and "oh, it's okay" bull****, I needed someone to *****slap the **** out of me, and he did an awesome job at it.

    I've also recommended his Predator diet a LOT to people on here looking to cut that last annoying few percent of bodyfat without losing strength or muscle.
  • wellbert
    wellbert Posts: 3,924 Member
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    His book was tremendously helpful to me. Especially the mind-over-matter type stuff.

    I also thought it was interesting how all the competitive/top end people don't worry about 'just working one muscle group per week.' They are pushing iron 4-6 days a week.

    Why shouldn't we strive to condition ourselves the same way?
  • FullOfWin
    FullOfWin Posts: 1,414 Member
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    Disagree that it is widely accepted or good for beginners to do high rep low weight lifting

    overtraining can be real, but it is worried about far too much

    steroids can be a shortcut, but they can also be used to push past genetic limitations when\if a person reaches them. that said most anyone who doesn't lift doesn't know just how big someone can get naturally, and claim someone must have used steroids far too often. an average man can out on 40-50lbs of muscle naturally. go look at 50 lbs of lean steak and imagine it spread over someone's body.

    anyone who lifts is above average. there is nothing wrong with people being content at simply above average instead of way above average. get over it.

    people don't get as strong as they used to be cause they don't need to, and there are a lot more options for ways to spend one's time than there used to be
  • wellbert
    wellbert Posts: 3,924 Member
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    I don't think anyone suggested that someone HAS to do high volume, just that they -can- and their body won't fall apart.
  • FirefitMike
    FirefitMike Posts: 85 Member
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    Good post, with one thought. Instead of following one program for years, I think most people don't follow their programs long enough. No quick results, they change it up. It's all over these boards.

    Consistency with reasonable progression works best IMO.
  • waldo56
    waldo56 Posts: 1,861 Member
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    Most of people's issues with success or lack thereof comes from diet issues moreso than routine issues.

    People suck at bulking just as much as they suck at losing weight, if not moreso.

    For every stupid flat out wrong concept that gets bandied around for weight loss, there are twice as many stupid flat out wrong concepts related to muscle growth.

    If you spend months/years working out and don't get any bigger, diet is the issue. The only time strength routine is the issue is if you are getting fat without gaining muscle. Rarely is this the case. The issue is almost always undereating, whether out of fear of fat or sucking at calorie estimating. Either way, if the scale isn't going up consistently, you are undereating, period.

    You have to be at a fairly advanced level before routine matters in the slightest (assuming the effort is there). With a moderate calories suplus and enough protein, pretty everything works no matter how dumb. Stupid routines may take a little longer (meaning you gain fat a higher rate when bulking), but they work just fine.
  • Delicate
    Delicate Posts: 625 Member
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    Since they are talking about a book or a person, can someone pm me about it?

    im quite interested in a no poop approach to training since its mostly in the mind, if you say you cant then your body wont.
  • zela
    zela Posts: 92 Member
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    You wont make progress just because you're eating well when your training is garbage, vice versa.

    My prediction: everybody will ignore my post, keep tracking their gummy bear diet, half assing in the gym, and asking why they don't have the results.
  • robmcd88
    robmcd88 Posts: 85 Member
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    You forgot to mention “Starvation mode”
  • Greenrun99
    Greenrun99 Posts: 2,065 Member
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    1: why have people become so set on the idea of following programs designed by people who have never met them, instead of using their brain to figure out what works best for them?

    2: overtraining has become the favorite excuse to bandy around for people sucking. Funny how it was barely ever mentioned 30 years ago, when people in general were in much better shape.

    3: steroids are a shortcut, not some magical crap that turns mere men into gods. Falls under the 'excuses for why I suck' column, same as above.

    4: why are people content with being physically 'average' instead of the best they can be?

    5: have people truly devolved from the strength we used to have, or is it just a case of global laziness?

    1. The fundamental idea is the same, if you put in the effort and work hard at the lifts you should be able to develop the way the program intended you to, now that doesn't mean its 1 program fits all, obviously you can make your own routines and focus on lifting you enjoy or want to improve in.

    2. I don't know about overtraining, unless you hurt yourself.. you could go to the gym everyday or you could have a few days off, as long as your not doing the same thing everyday... you really gotta push yourself to overtrain.

    3. You shouldn't be taking steroids if your the average gym guy.. this is becoming some new cool trend to take all these supplements and at the extreme steroids.. If your an average joe at the gym trying to get in better shape just work hard and avoid all the gimmicks of steroids and other performance enhancing items.. Dont be a d-bag.

    4. Maybe your term of "Average" is someone's near best.. take the person that lost 100 lbs that you see at the gym lifting lower weight then you, you think they are average, they think they are awesome.. way to judge.

    5. Global laziness, kids don't play outside, instead play video games.. People don't walk anywhere anymore.. People are lazy.

    my 2 cents on this.
  • w292737
    w292737 Posts: 25
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    4. the best I can be might be what I am, how do you know by just looking at me if I am at my best or not?
  • Plates559
    Plates559 Posts: 869 Member
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    Steroids: I like what Dave Tate said about them (paraphrased, and Tate has surely taken them)

    Steroids are like your ace up the sleeve, you can flip it at any time, but once you flip it, its flipped and you can't take it back. You may end up wishing you waited, or had never flipped ever. At the end of the day its your decision, just make sure its what you REALLY want, and will continue to want down the road.

    Personally on a moral level, I don't see a difference between a woman getting a boob job/nose job what ever and a man injecting steroids. Both want to look a certain way for what ever reason.

    Over training: I have over trained... well I'd like to think so. Once it resulted in some annoying tendonitis, and another resulted in me sleeping for 14 hours straight through the day, even though I was getting ~8 hours each night and eating enough.
  • Plates559
    Plates559 Posts: 869 Member
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    Standardized training:

    I saw some of my best strength based gains on Wendler's 5/3/1. Not sure if this falls under what you were talking about though. Now that I am nearing the end of my competition season I will be doing 5/3/1 for likely 6-8 months.

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