When to bulk?
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I'm aiming for 10% body fat before bulking - should be around 160lb or so for me.
The idea is around the point abs might start showing - though I need to keep doing ab exercises (have been slacking due to a dodgy back and trying to ensure it doesn't get worse) to have any hope of anything showing through.
No you don't if you are doing heavy barbell lifts.0 -
Tagged for later reading.0
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I'm not doing heavy barbell lifts.
Even with the 'correct form' I've found this can also cause problems for my back, so need to be careful on that front.
Definitely for squats with a bar placed on my upper back it seems to cause problems for the upper back - I try to go for a dumbell either side for this when I do do it.
Don't have much space at home and no gym at the moment, though I do have a barbell at my work lock-up (self employed), but haven't been down there that much recently as haven't had the need.
Have been advised before and probably should look at a decent lifting pattern around that sort of thing as it works a lot of muscles.
However, for general ease the Aerobic Weider Six workout program app on my phone is hassle free and can be done with no kit, so had been doing that and just started again today.0 -
Ha, I think the only thing to take away from this thread is that there is no consensus on bulking/ cutting. I have been lifting for a good 7 years or so and would advise to start simple and add a muscle base before you do anything else. See how it feels and go from there. Start lifting now. I recommend bodybuilding.com to get a good program started. Also, make sure to eat your goal weight in lean protein and keep your fats up to around 3 tbsp per day. (around 45 to 50 g minimum) The protein is important to rebuild and fats are important to maintain your testosterone levels. Also, try to keep your cholesterol at the max recommended to make sure your testosterone doesn't decrease. Don't try to factor in weight lifting as cardio either, because the cals burned are negligible. Set your cals a little higher if you're doing 1lb per week, up in to .5 or maintenance because you don't want to hinder your progress with too few cals. Cardio is an option to lean out while you're building your base, but don't overdo it.
Good luck! Lifting will change your life and your body forever!0 -
I'm in this same category, but only 5' 8 at 173 lbs. I was trying to get smaller, but there is no fat left anywhere except my lower belly. My wife has even complained of my hip bones poking out. I can see a little definition in my upper abs, but my lifting was starting to suffer. The last straw came this past weekend when in some pics that my wife took I noticed I was starting to look gaunt, like 1960's Johnny Cash methamphetamine gaunt. So this week I've started making it my goal to eat around maintenance. Already I've noticed more strength in my lifts and pull-ups.0
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So I am 6 ft 4, in June I was 257 now I'm 223. I am pure skinny fat. By next summer I would preferably like to add a little bit of muscle and potentially be down at 200 lbs. Any tips or thoughts on it?
Cheers peeps.
If you are able to maintain your current weight but add muscle and reduce body fat over the next year, that would be a significant accomplishment, although probably doable for somebody your age. But...you need to hit the gym. The muscle doesn't just happen.
You may also find that the next 20 lbs will be harder than the first 30 but don't dismay. Steady, consistent workout routines while eating healthy and drinking less beer
are the way to go. Take it from somebody who's been there.
I feel like this sums it up quite well, I am not looking for some really low body fat percentage btw. I know what you mean about the first 30 being easier but my lifestyle has changed. Over the summer when i started i was living at home with no real distractions. I had a gym close to me and keeping track with food was pretty easy.
Now i am back at University and although my weight loss has slowed im still losing the lbs. My schedule in the gym has slowed dramatically but my food intake isn't too bad. Of course alcohol has increased but it doesn't seem to be affecting my weight loss as im not drinking beer, sticking to good old rum.
I just want a physique with a bit of muscle and a bit of fat. I don't need to be like a 8% body fat or whatever.0 -
i think it depends how big you want to get.
if it were me, i wouldn't bulk if i was over 18-20% body fat.
and if your going for strength and not looks, i think a lot of guys would up that to around 25%, possibly more.
i would like to add, i try to not go past 20% because it hinders my cardio, which may or may not be important to you.
You know, I get this and in the past wouldn't have disagreed. However, a couple of months ago, I got to a stall at about 23% BF. Wasn't loosing weight and wasn't progressing with strength. I looked at the options. Cut calories more or go on a conservative bulk. I chose the later. I have added some nice muscle mass in my upper body where I was lacking, broken my strength stall and add a little fat but not a lot. 5 more pounds up to go and then cut. I'm liking the results so far, both appearance and strength wise. When I cut, I will have a better base structure to start from.
how do you know you couldn't of cut to 18% then conservative bulked and got similar results0 -
i think it depends how big you want to get.
if it were me, i wouldn't bulk if i was over 18-20% body fat.
and if your going for strength and not looks, i think a lot of guys would up that to around 25%, possibly more.
i would like to add, i try to not go past 20% because it hinders my cardio, which may or may not be important to you.
You know, I get this and in the past wouldn't have disagreed. However, a couple of months ago, I got to a stall at about 23% BF. Wasn't loosing weight and wasn't progressing with strength. I looked at the options. Cut calories more or go on a conservative bulk. I chose the later. I have added some nice muscle mass in my upper body where I was lacking, broken my strength stall and add a little fat but not a lot. 5 more pounds up to go and then cut. I'm liking the results so far, both appearance and strength wise. When I cut, I will have a better base structure to start from.
how do you know you couldn't of cut to 18% then conservative bulked and got similar results
Well I don't know for sure except that I was in a dead stall. Would drop calories to a 1000 calorie deficit.....no loss. I could eat in a span of 700 or so calories up or down for a few weeks at a time each and get no change. Tried to increase weight in strength training and got nowhere. Did 2 deloads..... nothing. This is the only thing that made a difference. And the difference has been big. Not saying it's right for everyone but it's worked for me. I just wouldn't discount it. It is totally anecdotal but it may be that some of us have so little lean muscle mass that we need to build some to progress well. Maybe not... is working for me right now.0 -
i think it depends how big you want to get.
if it were me, i wouldn't bulk if i was over 18-20% body fat.
and if your going for strength and not looks, i think a lot of guys would up that to around 25%, possibly more.
i would like to add, i try to not go past 20% because it hinders my cardio, which may or may not be important to you.
You know, I get this and in the past wouldn't have disagreed. However, a couple of months ago, I got to a stall at about 23% BF. Wasn't loosing weight and wasn't progressing with strength. I looked at the options. Cut calories more or go on a conservative bulk. I chose the later. I have added some nice muscle mass in my upper body where I was lacking, broken my strength stall and add a little fat but not a lot. 5 more pounds up to go and then cut. I'm liking the results so far, both appearance and strength wise. When I cut, I will have a better base structure to start from.
how do you know you couldn't of cut to 18% then conservative bulked and got similar results
Well I don't know for sure except that I was in a dead stall. Would drop calories to a 1000 calorie deficit.....no loss. I could eat in a span of 700 or so calories up or down for a few weeks at a time each and get no change. Tried to increase weight in strength training and got nowhere. Did 2 deloads..... nothing. This is the only thing that made a difference. And the difference has been big. Not saying it's right for everyone but it's worked for me. I just wouldn't discount it. It is totally anecdotal but it may be that some of us have so little lean muscle mass that we need to build some to progress well. Maybe not... is working for me right now.
so how much was your conservative bulk if it wasn't 700 up.0 -
To the OP:
The "healthiest" way to achieve quality size and muscle mass is to closely monitor your diet and exercise.
1. cut back on sodas, fast food, and high trans-fats
2. adjust your MFP goals, this will provide guidance based on age, activity level.
3. lift weights, but don't over train
4. forget about those supplements, eat healthy.
5. cut back on cardio and increase strength training.0 -
i think it depends how big you want to get.
if it were me, i wouldn't bulk if i was over 18-20% body fat.
and if your going for strength and not looks, i think a lot of guys would up that to around 25%, possibly more.
i would like to add, i try to not go past 20% because it hinders my cardio, which may or may not be important to you.
You know, I get this and in the past wouldn't have disagreed. However, a couple of months ago, I got to a stall at about 23% BF. Wasn't loosing weight and wasn't progressing with strength. I looked at the options. Cut calories more or go on a conservative bulk. I chose the later. I have added some nice muscle mass in my upper body where I was lacking, broken my strength stall and add a little fat but not a lot. 5 more pounds up to go and then cut. I'm liking the results so far, both appearance and strength wise. When I cut, I will have a better base structure to start from.
how do you know you couldn't of cut to 18% then conservative bulked and got similar results
Well I don't know for sure except that I was in a dead stall. Would drop calories to a 1000 calorie deficit.....no loss. I could eat in a span of 700 or so calories up or down for a few weeks at a time each and get no change. Tried to increase weight in strength training and got nowhere. Did 2 deloads..... nothing. This is the only thing that made a difference. And the difference has been big. Not saying it's right for everyone but it's worked for me. I just wouldn't discount it. It is totally anecdotal but it may be that some of us have so little lean muscle mass that we need to build some to progress well. Maybe not... is working for me right now.
so how much was your conservative bulk if it wasn't 700 up.
Still doing it and about 300 to 500 per day over maintenance. Have gained 10 lbs in 2.5 months. Hard to say the mix exactly. But, it appears the muscle gain is at least even of not slightly better than the fat gain. When I was saying 700 up or down, I was refering specifically to deficit. I'd go from a maintenance, to a 700/750 calorie deficit for a month and see no movement in weight. Didn't get a scan but body fat did not appear to change either.0 -
You shouldn't be thinking about bulking until you've got visible abs.
Bulking = calorie suplus and gaining fat along with muscle.
The metabolism raising effects of more muscle are grossly overstated.
Take advantage of your noob strength gains while cutting down the first time. Whe you switch over to bulking then you should be strong enough to actually gain some muscle.
I highly disagree. If he's new to weight training, which it sounds like, then his body has no real construct of true diet and training. He would then qualify as an individual whom I would say has the ability for "recomposition." A process when burning fat does happen simultaneously with hypertrophy because he's never done this before. And the idea of having visible abs befor bulking? Pshh. Build now, cut later. Having more body mass increases basal metabolic rate making cutting more effective. Yes, you're going to gain/keep some wet weight but that's physiologically necessitated for muscle building.
Get your diet in check to be slightly above maintenance (+200 cal) with enough protein, stick to lower carb diet and higher fat for a little bit then adjust accordingly after 4-6 weeks. Don't chance diet too frequently.0 -
i think it depends how big you want to get.
if it were me, i wouldn't bulk if i was over 18-20% body fat.
and if your going for strength and not looks, i think a lot of guys would up that to around 25%, possibly more.
i would like to add, i try to not go past 20% because it hinders my cardio, which may or may not be important to you.
You know, I get this and in the past wouldn't have disagreed. However, a couple of months ago, I got to a stall at about 23% BF. Wasn't loosing weight and wasn't progressing with strength. I looked at the options. Cut calories more or go on a conservative bulk. I chose the later. I have added some nice muscle mass in my upper body where I was lacking, broken my strength stall and add a little fat but not a lot. 5 more pounds up to go and then cut. I'm liking the results so far, both appearance and strength wise. When I cut, I will have a better base structure to start from.
how do you know you couldn't of cut to 18% then conservative bulked and got similar results
Well I don't know for sure except that I was in a dead stall. Would drop calories to a 1000 calorie deficit.....no loss. I could eat in a span of 700 or so calories up or down for a few weeks at a time each and get no change. Tried to increase weight in strength training and got nowhere. Did 2 deloads..... nothing. This is the only thing that made a difference. And the difference has been big. Not saying it's right for everyone but it's worked for me. I just wouldn't discount it. It is totally anecdotal but it may be that some of us have so little lean muscle mass that we need to build some to progress well. Maybe not... is working for me right now.
so how much was your conservative bulk if it wasn't 700 up.
Still doing it and about 300 to 500 per day over maintenance. Have gained 10 lbs in 2.5 months. Hard to say the mix exactly. But, it appears the muscle gain is at least even of not slightly better than the fat gain. When I was saying 700 up or down, I was refering specifically to deficit. I'd go from a maintenance, to a 700/750 calorie deficit for a month and see no movement in weight. Didn't get a scan but body fat did not appear to change either.
do you eat enough protein? if your looking to gain muscle you should be in the 200 + register imo well for you age group maybe a little less, but i would be definitely be eating more than your lean body mass.0 -
i think it depends how big you want to get.
if it were me, i wouldn't bulk if i was over 18-20% body fat.
and if your going for strength and not looks, i think a lot of guys would up that to around 25%, possibly more.
i would like to add, i try to not go past 20% because it hinders my cardio, which may or may not be important to you.
You know, I get this and in the past wouldn't have disagreed. However, a couple of months ago, I got to a stall at about 23% BF. Wasn't loosing weight and wasn't progressing with strength. I looked at the options. Cut calories more or go on a conservative bulk. I chose the later. I have added some nice muscle mass in my upper body where I was lacking, broken my strength stall and add a little fat but not a lot. 5 more pounds up to go and then cut. I'm liking the results so far, both appearance and strength wise. When I cut, I will have a better base structure to start from.
how do you know you couldn't of cut to 18% then conservative bulked and got similar results
Well I don't know for sure except that I was in a dead stall. Would drop calories to a 1000 calorie deficit.....no loss. I could eat in a span of 700 or so calories up or down for a few weeks at a time each and get no change. Tried to increase weight in strength training and got nowhere. Did 2 deloads..... nothing. This is the only thing that made a difference. And the difference has been big. Not saying it's right for everyone but it's worked for me. I just wouldn't discount it. It is totally anecdotal but it may be that some of us have so little lean muscle mass that we need to build some to progress well. Maybe not... is working for me right now.
so how much was your conservative bulk if it wasn't 700 up.
Still doing it and about 300 to 500 per day over maintenance. Have gained 10 lbs in 2.5 months. Hard to say the mix exactly. But, it appears the muscle gain is at least even of not slightly better than the fat gain. When I was saying 700 up or down, I was refering specifically to deficit. I'd go from a maintenance, to a 700/750 calorie deficit for a month and see no movement in weight. Didn't get a scan but body fat did not appear to change either.
do you eat enough protein? if your looking to gain muscle you should be in the 200 + register imo well for you age group maybe a little less, but i would be definitely be eating more than your lean body mass.
Generally between 150 and 220. Tell my why you would think 200+. Not disputing, just trying to understand the viewpoint and rationale to possible learn something.0 -
i think it depends how big you want to get.
if it were me, i wouldn't bulk if i was over 18-20% body fat.
and if your going for strength and not looks, i think a lot of guys would up that to around 25%, possibly more.
i would like to add, i try to not go past 20% because it hinders my cardio, which may or may not be important to you.
You know, I get this and in the past wouldn't have disagreed. However, a couple of months ago, I got to a stall at about 23% BF. Wasn't loosing weight and wasn't progressing with strength. I looked at the options. Cut calories more or go on a conservative bulk. I chose the later. I have added some nice muscle mass in my upper body where I was lacking, broken my strength stall and add a little fat but not a lot. 5 more pounds up to go and then cut. I'm liking the results so far, both appearance and strength wise. When I cut, I will have a better base structure to start from.
how do you know you couldn't of cut to 18% then conservative bulked and got similar results
Well I don't know for sure except that I was in a dead stall. Would drop calories to a 1000 calorie deficit.....no loss. I could eat in a span of 700 or so calories up or down for a few weeks at a time each and get no change. Tried to increase weight in strength training and got nowhere. Did 2 deloads..... nothing. This is the only thing that made a difference. And the difference has been big. Not saying it's right for everyone but it's worked for me. I just wouldn't discount it. It is totally anecdotal but it may be that some of us have so little lean muscle mass that we need to build some to progress well. Maybe not... is working for me right now.
so how much was your conservative bulk if it wasn't 700 up.
Still doing it and about 300 to 500 per day over maintenance. Have gained 10 lbs in 2.5 months. Hard to say the mix exactly. But, it appears the muscle gain is at least even of not slightly better than the fat gain. When I was saying 700 up or down, I was refering specifically to deficit. I'd go from a maintenance, to a 700/750 calorie deficit for a month and see no movement in weight. Didn't get a scan but body fat did not appear to change either.
do you eat enough protein? if your looking to gain muscle you should be in the 200 + register imo well for you age group maybe a little less, but i would be definitely be eating more than your lean body mass.
Generally between 150 and 220. Tell my why you would think 200+. Not disputing, just trying to understand the viewpoint and rationale to possible learn something.
cause any big bodybuilder says that. im just trying to think of reasons you wouldn't loose weight when cutting calories when your at a 23% BF. ive never had that problem.0 -
Because the body requires surplus protein if it's going to build anything. How can you build a house addition if you only have enough wood to fix the siding? Generally speaking man needs 0.8-1.0g protein/lbs body weight to support turnover daily. Depending on how active you are and your goals you need to eat anywhere from 1.2-2.0g/lb BW. I suggest starting somewhere like 1.3-1.5g
Generally between 150 and 220. Tell my why you would think 200+. Not disputing, just trying to understand the viewpoint and rationale to possible learn something.
Off season I'm +300g0 -
Because the body requires surplus protein if it's going to build anything. How can you build a house addition if you only have enough wood to fix the siding? Generally speaking man needs 0.8-1.0g protein/lbs body weight to support turnover daily. Depending on how active you are and your goals you need to eat anywhere from 1.2-2.0g/lb BW. I suggest starting somewhere like 1.3-1.5g
Generally between 150 and 220. Tell my why you would think 200+. Not disputing, just trying to understand the viewpoint and rationale to possible learn something.
Off season I'm +300g
Thanks for the explanation.0 -
You have to eat big to be big. The lifting just helps make sure more of it is muscle than just fatty fat fat.
Eat your steak and eggs and lift big!0 -
I would love to see the peer-reviewed scientific articles that suggest protein requirements at the levels suggested in this thread. Any references?0
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I would love to see the peer-reviewed scientific articles that suggest protein requirements at the levels suggested in this thread. Any references?
This isn't what you asked for, but it is still a good write up http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1217039810
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