Jogging vs sprinting

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  • jennajocummings
    jennajocummings Posts: 104
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    There is a whole theory of human evolution that says that our survival advantage was that we could run far, and that we hunted by chasing our prey until it collapsed from exhaustion.

    I always thought the theory was that we are intelligent and built tools to help us with the hunt. We out smarted the animals, not out ran them. We ran to get away from the animals. =)
  • CarsonRuns
    CarsonRuns Posts: 3,039 Member
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    Maybe it's not worth saying, but the OP is not an elite runner, she's someone who is thinking of getting into jogging

    Duly noted, but still can't sit by and let the OP develop misconceptions about running.
  • CarsonRuns
    CarsonRuns Posts: 3,039 Member
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    There is a whole theory of human evolution that says that our survival advantage was that we could run far, and that we hunted by chasing our prey until it collapsed from exhaustion.

    I always thought the theory was that we are intelligent and built tools to help us with the hunt. We out smarted the animals, not out ran them. We ran to get away from the animals. =)

    That came after the persistence hunting phase of human development. Persistence hunting still takes places in some areas of the world.
  • secretlobster
    secretlobster Posts: 3,566 Member
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    Duly noted, but still can't sit by and let the OP develop misconceptions about running.

    Oh I'm not debating that at all... I wouldn't want her to discount the idea of running because she's concerned about muscle loss. I just don't know if elite running is applicable to someone who doesn't even run yet
  • CarsonRuns
    CarsonRuns Posts: 3,039 Member
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    Duly noted, but still can't sit by and let the OP develop misconceptions about running.

    Oh I'm not debating that at all... I wouldn't want her to discount the idea of running because she's concerned about muscle loss. I just don't know if elite running is applicable to someone who doesn't even run yet

    I take the approach that anyone that is interested in running is going to fall in love with it and what to continue to improve over time, unless someone specifically states that they "need to run x time at y distance for a test". That's the tact from which I operate. I think that the elites are relevant, because what they do and what I do (and many other age group runners) is not that much different. They do 85% of their running at an easy, aerobic pace. For them, that may be a 6 minute mile, or me it's 9:00. When you compare actual time on their feet, their 100 mile week is about the same amount of running as my 60 mile week. The volume of intensity that they do is close to the volume that I do. The approach is the same, for the most part. They have just been doing it longer, so they can do it faster. Genetics helps too, but that's not the whole of it.

    So, that's my thoughts on it, for what it's worth.
  • summertime_girl
    summertime_girl Posts: 3,945 Member
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    It's not sustainable because research shows that an aerobic base is required to continually gain speed improvements. Anecdotal evidence supports this. Without the base, you will reach a ceiling in your speed and you won't be able to break through without doing easy running over time to increase your base.

    As for not having the time to devote to it, it just depends on how important it is. If you want it, you make time for it. I have a full time job, two active kids and weeknight obligations about 4 nights a week. I found the time to run 80 mile weeks to prepare for my marathon.

    I'm not saying Run Less, Run Faster is a bad program, just that it's not the best way to set yourself up for continual improvements over you running lifetime.

    With the three run workouts (including 1 long run per week), as well as 2 cross-training workouts, I don't see how that would not be enough to build a base.

    I run a lot, I just did my first half marathon, and the training that goes into that. I do a lot of other races as well (obstacle/adventure). I put at least 15 hours a week into exercising. I still max out around 25 miles per week. There is no way I could ever do 80 mile weeks. But my goal also isn't sub-3 marathons either.
  • CarsonRuns
    CarsonRuns Posts: 3,039 Member
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    It's not sustainable because research shows that an aerobic base is required to continually gain speed improvements. Anecdotal evidence supports this. Without the base, you will reach a ceiling in your speed and you won't be able to break through without doing easy running over time to increase your base.

    As for not having the time to devote to it, it just depends on how important it is. If you want it, you make time for it. I have a full time job, two active kids and weeknight obligations about 4 nights a week. I found the time to run 80 mile weeks to prepare for my marathon.

    I'm not saying Run Less, Run Faster is a bad program, just that it's not the best way to set yourself up for continual improvements over you running lifetime.

    With the three run workouts (including 1 long run per week), as well as 2 cross-training workouts, I don't see how that would not be enough to build a base.

    I run a lot, I just did my first half marathon, and the training that goes into that. I do a lot of other races as well (obstacle/adventure). I put at least 15 hours a week into exercising. I still max out around 25 miles per week. There is no way I could ever do 80 mile weeks. But my goal also isn't sub-3 marathons either.

    It does build some aerobic fitness, but not specifically for running. If you want to get better at running, you have to run. If you want to get better at basketball you don't play tennis. Tennis will help your overall basketball fitness, but it won't help your jump shot.

    Running fitness isn't just about the lungs. The muscle and connectivity structures need to develop too. The best way to prepare them for running is to run.

    Make no mistake here. I am not stating that what you are doing doesn't work, only that it's not the best way to get faster and be able to continually improve over time.
  • summertime_girl
    summertime_girl Posts: 3,945 Member
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    But with that mileage, when do you get to recover?
  • CarsonRuns
    CarsonRuns Posts: 3,039 Member
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    But with that mileage, when do you get to recover?

    On the easy runs. As your fitness improves, your recovery doesn't have to be inactivity or cross training. Recovery takes place on aerobic run days.
  • secretlobster
    secretlobster Posts: 3,566 Member
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    But with that mileage, when do you get to recover?

    On the easy runs. As your fitness improves, your recovery doesn't have to be inactivity or cross training. Recovery takes place on aerobic run days.

    I love Carson's posts, I always learn something :)
  • RunsOnEspresso
    RunsOnEspresso Posts: 3,218 Member
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    I am looking to introduce speed work into my running to help in crease my pace.

    Speed work won't hurt, but the best way to increase your pace is to increase your volume.

    No where in my post did I say how much I ran or that I was going to look at speed work exclusively to increase pace. I took a year or so off from running (and gained weight, hence why I am here) and am slowly getting myself back into running. I am working on volume now and have started reading about speed work to see if I want to introduce that. Previously I only focused on mileage. I want to try to get better overall, distance, speed, pacing etc...
  • tappae
    tappae Posts: 568 Member
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    Speed wrk will increase your speed, distance work will increase your distance.

    That's what I always thought, until I increased my distance significantly this year. I've learned that by increasing the amount that I'm running at an easy (conversational) pace that I'm getting faster even without doing much speed work. I'm faster than I've ever been and I hardly ever run fast. Instead, I run more.

    OP, if you're just starting out running, you should spend some time jogging and then add speed work in after you've been consistently running at least 20-30 miles per week for a few months. I peaked at 50 miles per week this year and experienced zero loss of muscle or strength, without doing any sprinting or strength training on my legs. I didn't even eat a lot of protein. I don't think you need to worry about muscle loss unless you are seriously over-training (like a part-time job amount of time) and malnourished.
  • tappae
    tappae Posts: 568 Member
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    I love Carson's posts, I always learn something :)

    +1
  • askcupid117
    askcupid117 Posts: 126 Member
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    Since we are on the topic of jogging. I recently took up jogging but with walking breaks because I am not at a level where I can consistently jog/run without periods of rest. I am working on incorporating more distance and trying to build up my stamina. My lungs handle it just fine but my legs hurt during the run, shins are sore and such. But what concerns me is I have soreness at the bottom of my calf where it connects to the ankle; it gets very tight feeling. My question to all of you more experienced runners is, is it safe to run when you are sore? Or do you risk injuring something? Because if I dont walk/jog when sore I'd have to take every other day off, which I feel slows my progress. But I dont want to rush the process and risk injury and then be out of commission all together. What are your thoughts? I really value the opinion of people on here who have "been there done that" and have already gone through what I am going through. So thank you in advance to all who reply. :)
  • CarsonRuns
    CarsonRuns Posts: 3,039 Member
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    Since we are on the topic of jogging. I recently took up jogging but with walking breaks because I am not at a level where I can consistently jog/run without periods of rest. I am working on incorporating more distance and trying to build up my stamina. My lungs handle it just fine but my legs hurt during the run, shins are sore and such. But what concerns me is I have soreness at the bottom of my calf where it connects to the ankle; it gets very tight feeling. My question to all of you more experienced runners is, is it safe to run when you are sore? Or do you risk injuring something? Because if I dont walk/jog when sore I'd have to take every other day off, which I feel slows my progress. But I dont want to rush the process and risk injury and then be out of commission all together. What are your thoughts? I really value the opinion of people on here who have "been there done that" and have already gone through what I am going through. So thank you in advance to all who reply. :)

    Have you been to a specialty running store like Fleet Feet or Roadrunner Sports and been properly fitted for running shoes that fit your gait? If not, this is the first step I would take. It may alleviate the aches you are feeling.

    Is it safe to run when you are sore? Yes, if the soreness is from running, but if it's an injury starting up, you have to address that. Some injuries you can run through with treatment, others need down time. For me, if the pain is light (like up to a 4 on a 10 scale) and it reaches a specific point and doesn't get any worse, I'll continue to run on it. If the pain gets progressively worse, then I won't run on it. You just have to learn to listen to what your body is telling you. It will take some time for you to understand the language that it is speaking.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
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    Jogging or distance running for 40-60 miles a week does in fact cause the fast twitch muscle fibers in your body to decrease in size (and possibly even disappear from what I understand). That being said, that is a LOT of running to do. It depends on what you want to do with your body, if you want to develop explosiveness vs endurance, then sprints are the way to go (but only for about 20-30 minutes on workout days).

    Show me where this research is. My average mileage is within that range and my fast twitch fibers are still there, still defined and still doing their job. As a matter of fact, part of distance running is a weekly long run. One of the primary purposes of this long run is to recruit fast twitch fibers to do the job of the slow twitch fibers when they become fatigued. If you want more information, read Daniels Running Formula by Jack Daniels or look it up in Tim Noakes' The Lore of Running.

    Yeah, that one had me shaking my head as well.

    There is little question that high volumes of endurance running can inhibit gains in muscle mass. I don't have the reference because the study is at work, but I recent study suggested that running itself inhibited muscle gains compared to other cardio exercises--e.g. cycling-- even at the same volume. The authors conclusion was that it was the eccentric movements of running that were the cause (as opposed to the mostly concentric movements of cycling).

    However--and this is always the most crucial thing in these discussion -- "interfere with muscle gains" does NOT mean "eats muscle", nor does it mean "prevents muscle gain". And the "interferes with muscle gain" is ONLY significant if your only goal is ---maximizing muscle mass. And this is the problem--when extremes of the spectrum are posited as the "norm".

    When it comes to competitive or performance athletes, then the goal of training qualitatively shifts from overall health to peak performance. And anything that interferes with peak performance is avoided. Competitive athletes do all kinds of things that aren't healthy (and I'm not even talking about PEDs) in order to maximize performance. Again, it is a mistake to generalize the results of that type of training or to recommend that type of training to everyone in the average population.

    The average person can do lots and lots of endurance training, and lift weights, and realize all the strength and muscle gains they want. There is nothing wrong with wanted to put on large amounts of muscle (or to run marathons), but neither of those should be set as the "ideal" that everyone else should be encouraged (or browbeaten) to emulate.
  • Stalh
    Stalh Posts: 14
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    Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply. I am new to running and do about 30 min a day, which is a baby step to most. but thank you for addressing my concerns over muscle loss. I like the look and feel of my muscle and was just concerned about loosing it.
  • nkklllll
    nkklllll Posts: 19
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    Fast twitch muscles are NOT meant to take over when slow twitch muscles are fatigued . . . those muscles serve two different purposes e.g. slow twitch are for endurance, fast twitch are for strength. Now, when you lift heavy weights AND run a great deal, you slow twitch fibers DO increase in size, but they do not have nearly the same capacity to gain strength or size as fast twitch fibers do. This is why you have people that can be incredibly skinny (low bf %) and looked ripped AND lift a lot of weight. Distance running (in the range I mentioned0 does not work your fast twitch muscle fibers. Fast twitch fibers are recruited when feats of strength (e.g. deadlift and bench and back squat) are performed while slow twitch are recruited when feats of endurance (e.g. running at a steady pace for an extended period of time) are performed.
  • nkklllll
    nkklllll Posts: 19
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    I wasn't bro beating anyone, I gave a perspective from the strength training side of things, and if your goal is size (which I'm guessing it isn't since a woman was OP) then running should be strictly on the back burner of your workout. I never suggested that should only do sprints or lift because being small and a distance runner is bad, only presented some information that I've come across in my time weight lifting and studying the subject. Nor did I try to put it as the "norm." Nor is it even on one side of the extreme. Many powerlifters do cardio on a regular basis to enhance the endurance of their fast twitch fibers because they do have to move a lot of heavy weight for a long time (think of pull a 22,000lbs firetruck for 25m) These are 300+lbs men that run for upwards of 30-35 minutes a day, or do prowler sled work, or even HIIT training.

    Think about it this way . . . As a previous poster said, weight means everything to distance runners. So, any and all excess weight (including muscle fibers) are subject to size decrease in the event that a body becomes conditioned to lots of running. Fast twitch fibers require more energy to use the bigger they are, so if you don't use them, your body will cause them to decrease in size accordingly, freeing up more energy for your slow twitch fibers to stay in use.
  • CarsonRuns
    CarsonRuns Posts: 3,039 Member
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    Fast twitch muscles are NOT meant to take over when slow twitch muscles are fatigued . . . those muscles serve two different purposes e.g. slow twitch are for endurance, fast twitch are for strength. Now, when you lift heavy weights AND run a great deal, you slow twitch fibers DO increase in size, but they do not have nearly the same capacity to gain strength or size as fast twitch fibers do. This is why you have people that can be incredibly skinny (low bf %) and looked ripped AND lift a lot of weight. Distance running (in the range I mentioned0 does not work your fast twitch muscle fibers. Fast twitch fibers are recruited when feats of strength (e.g. deadlift and bench and back squat) are performed while slow twitch are recruited when feats of endurance (e.g. running at a steady pace for an extended period of time) are performed.

    Sorry, but you are just misinformed. Both slow twitch and fast twitch are recruited in distance running. Yes, it's primarily slow twitch and yes, slow twitch are more efficient, but fast twitch don't just sit there doing nothing.

    Here is one article that a quick google search returned. You will also find the same thing discussed in two running books that I have read. "The Lore of Running" by Tim Noakes, Phd and "Daniels Running Formula" by renowned running coach Jack Daniels.

    http://schubes1114.tripod.com/id1.html

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