are endurance cardio & muscle retention mutually exclusive?

jacksonpt
jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
in Food and Nutrition
I'm not sure if this belongs in the fitness/exercise forum or the diet/weightloss forum, or the food and nutrition forum because all 3 play a role in the conversation. I put it here because the food/nutrition piece is what I'm most fuzzy on.

This seems to be the one topic I read the most conflicting info about (at least where there seems to be merit on both sides of the argument).

Are endurance cardio and muscle retention mutually exclusive?

and similarly...

Are endurance cardio and body comp goals mutually exclusive?


As a regular guy, I want to look good. I don't want to be "big", nor do I want to be "ripped". But I want to look strong. I want to have some reasonable muscle definition, and I want to have good proportions. I'm also a bit of a cardio junkie (because I enjoy it). I love to bike, and I've grown to love running. I'm a triathlete with a biking obsession is what it really comes down to.

I'm lucky enough to have some pretty good genetics on my side, so this really boils down to a nutrition issue for me rather than a training issue.

I'm not asking anyone to put together a diet plan for me - I'd pay someone for that. But I'm hoping with some reasonably intelligent discussion (on MFP??? shocker, right?!) I can get my head around this and get pointed in the right direction.

I have some thoughts, but I want to save them for later... I want to see where this conversation goes on it's own first.
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Replies

  • Christieson
    Christieson Posts: 36 Member
    Interesting questions. Bump.
  • derekjnichols
    derekjnichols Posts: 49 Member
    I've been struggling with this too.. thanks for asking.
  • Topsking2010
    Topsking2010 Posts: 2,245 Member
    Great question.
  • ChitownFoodie
    ChitownFoodie Posts: 1,562 Member
    Bump, just to keep it going for you. I have no insight, except I wonder if you are eating enough. If you are active as you say you are, I can't imagine the amount you are eating is sufficient.
  • 2BhappyBhealthy
    2BhappyBhealthy Posts: 181 Member
    I would also like to see where this goes.
  • mirthfuldragon
    mirthfuldragon Posts: 124 Member
    I'm interested in this topic, too, and I haven't done any major research.

    From my own personal experience, I would say that they compete with each other, but are not mutually exclusive. I finished P90x about two months ago, and I lost about 18 pounds on the program; of that, based on estimates, my body fat went down about 16 pounds, which would mean I lost 2 pounds of muscle. I was using my electric impedance scale to measure body fat, and I do not believe it is either precise or accurate, but it's all I have right now. I'm still trying to lose the last 15 vanity pounds between myself and six pack abs.

    Now I am switching to a triathlon-specific training program, with an emphasis on lifting (three times per week) during this off season, and building a base for more significant endurance work in the spring.

    Comparing notes with my cycling buddies (some of whom are crazy, in a good way, about the science), the endurance training stuff is very different from the typical hypertrophy strength training routines. For example, their incline presses are 3 or 5 sets at 30 reps, to build lactic threshold.

    My take, after not a whole lot of research, is that since my goal is endurance, I am doing 2 sets of 10-12 reps, as heavy as I can (following the classic Mark Allen 12 exercise set), and I am still seeing weight progression and definition increases. I don't think I am building the strength or mass that I would be if I were eating at a surplus and doing 5x5, but my goal isn't, right now, to deadlift twice my body weight - my goal is to run a sub-50 10k.

    Nutritionally, since I am still trying to lose that last 15 pounds, I strive for 1,800 calories with 180g of protein. I lift about three hours per week and another 9 in endruance cardio, split between running, swimming, and biking.
  • SorchaEilis
    SorchaEilis Posts: 99 Member
    It is possible to build *some* muscle while doing endurance cardio. But your body's need are significantly different for intense cardio versus muscle building, and much of what you need for muscle building will be burned by cardio if you are trying to do the two together.

    I tried a high protein diet while doing intense cardio for a while. I wanted to lose body fat and at lest maintain what muscle I had. I found that I actually added a little muscle as I lost a good amount of body fat. I got tested in a BodPod every few weeks to track my progress, same machine and as close to the same time of day each time, and while the muscle gains weren't significant, they were still there.
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
    I think as long as you eat and sleep for it, monitor your progress, and continue lifting, you'll be fine.
  • erickirb
    erickirb Posts: 12,294 Member
    My thought is that in a deficit complete compete against each other. If you are in a caloric surplus you should be able to build the amount of muscle you are trying to (based on surplus calories above what is burned from cardio) if you are doing the proper strength training. In a deficit, that is a different storey, the energy your muscles need to be retained may be going into fueling cardio leading to loss of more lean muscle, then if you did no cardio.

    This is based on my knowledge of the 2, no studies, and no person experience, except to say that when I did P90X and was running 2-3 days, week looked scrawny vs. me at the same weight after my last cut, where my only cardio was pretty light, 2.25 mile bike ride to and from work 4 days/week. This could have been due to muscle gain between the 2 points as they were 3 years apart too though.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,208 Member
    Food intake/diet, type of cardio, duration, regional muscle mass increases/decreases. Basically we need a sufficient load to break down muscle fibre, not to be confused with novice gains. imo
  • Chief_Rocka
    Chief_Rocka Posts: 4,710 Member
    Not mutually exclusive, but they are somewhat in conflict.

    Fore one, AMPK is the metabolic pathway through which you adapt to cardio exercise. This interferes with MTOR, the metabolic pathway responsible for muscle protein synthesis.

    Also, there is a question of how much your muscles and central nervous system can recover from. 2 heavy lower body workouts per week doesn't leave room for a ton of cardio, which is obviously lower-body dominant.

    I think to say that you can't get stronger and gain muscle mass while improving endurance capacity would be incorrect. But if you want to participate in triathlons, you aren't going to have either the muscle mass of the guy that focuses on bodybuilding or the strength of the guy that focuses on powerlifting.

    All that being said, as long as your goal isn't 8-10% bodyfat, I see no reason why you can't have a respectable amount of muscle mass, be reasonably strong, and still do a good amount of cardio. I would think that the best way to achieve this would be periodizing your goals, i.e., if you training for an upcoming race, focus on just maintaining your lifts.
  • auroranflash
    auroranflash Posts: 3,569 Member
    Yeah, Rock pretty much nailed it, way more than I could have.

    Basically, lift heavy and make sure you're getting a lot of protein to support muscle development. If you reach a plateau in your ability to lift - unable to lift heavier, can't break your PR's - then you may have to dial back the cardio. Your muscles build primarily on your rest days when your body is repairing them rather than when you're tearing them up on your lifting days, so respect that. You will be able to lift more if you give yourself more time and energy toward recovery, and cardio will take away from that in some ways.

    You can definitely incorporate both, but you may be sacrificing breaking your PRs in either by focusing on the other, if that makes sense.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    To me, the question is how much cardio in one session do you consider endurance cardio? I believe Steve Troutman put up some data about how doing them in the same day causes competing hormonal responses that offset the benefits of each.

    Beyond that, endurance cardio generally becomes catabolic around the 1.5 hour mark (varies from individual to individual) when glycogen is depleted. There are nutritional strategies for minimizing this effect. So, the answer to your question is it depends! They are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

    edited to add: Firerock posted just as I was tying and he explained it perfectly!
  • ahamm002
    ahamm002 Posts: 1,690 Member
    In regard to answering this question, I think there are a lot of "if's" and "it depends." But they're definitley not completely mutually exclusive. Just look at professional athletes! Do pro soccer players look bad in the mirror? Most of them do tons of cardio and resistance training.

    Large amounts of endurance cardio, especially say training for a marathon, may inhibit your strength gains and building muscle mass. But who knows how significant it really is for the average person. Most likely endurance training is going to help the average person a lot more than hurt. So if you're not training for a body building competition, I wouldn't worry about your cardio too much
  • myofibril
    myofibril Posts: 4,500 Member
    Not mutually exclusive, but they are somewhat in conflict.

    [snip]

    All that being said, as long as your goal isn't 8-10% bodyfat, I see no reason why you can't have a respectable amount of muscle mass, be reasonably strong, and still do a good amount of cardio. I would think that the best way to achieve this would be periodizing your goals, i.e., if you training for an upcoming race, focus on just maintaining your lifts.

    I think this is pretty much right.

    It's not so much no results as dilution or inefficiency of results in most cases.
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
    To me, the question is how much cardio in one session do you consider endurance cardio? I believe Steve Troutman put up some data about how doing them in the same day causes competing hormonal responses that offset the benefits of each.

    Beyond that, endurance cardio generally becomes catabolic around the 1.5 hour mark (varies from individual to individual) when glycogen is depleted. There are nutritional strategies for minimizing this effect. So, the answer to your question is it depends! They are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

    Right... and that's the general understanding I've come away with after everything I've read. The part I have trouble with (or maybe where I overthink???) is the catabolic effects of glycogen depletion.

    Typical body comp nutrition is (relatively speaking) high fat/protein, low carb. Typical endurance nutrition is high carb (and crazy high carb when optimal performance is required, i.e. racing). If I eat for body comp goals and go somewhat low carb, then I'll burn through glycogen stores faster during cardio work, and thus turn catabolic faster than what would generally be considered typical (not to mention hurt performance, which may or may not be a big deal). If I eat higher carb to reduce muscle catabolizm (or whatever the word is), then I burn less fat due to the available glycogen.

    Does it make sense to eat based on what I'm doing that day? Or is overkill? Does the body even adjust that quickly? Is this what the whole "food as fuel" thing is about?
  • lenniebus
    lenniebus Posts: 321 Member
    By no means an expert, but I don't see them as mutually exclusive. I see strength training as key to improved performance in endurance activities. I tend to gravitate toward endurance activities (running, swimming) because I enjoy them a whole lot more than strength exercises, but to improve in the activities I love, I've found strength training to be key.

    I'm not sure, though, if you really want to excel in body building or competitive marathons if the answer is different. For me, as a recreational runner, I think balance is important
  • Chief_Rocka
    Chief_Rocka Posts: 4,710 Member
    To me, the question is how much cardio in one session do you consider endurance cardio? I believe Steve Troutman put up some data about how doing them in the same day causes competing hormonal responses that offset the benefits of each.

    Beyond that, endurance cardio generally becomes catabolic around the 1.5 hour mark (varies from individual to individual) when glycogen is depleted. There are nutritional strategies for minimizing this effect. So, the answer to your question is it depends! They are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

    Right... and that's the general understanding I've come away with after everything I've read. The part I have trouble with (or maybe where I overthink???) is the catabolic effects of glycogen depletion.

    Typical body comp nutrition is (relatively speaking) high fat/protein, low carb. Typical endurance nutrition is high carb (and crazy high carb when optimal performance is required, i.e. racing). If I eat for body comp goals and go somewhat low carb, then I'll burn through glycogen stores faster during cardio work, and thus turn catabolic faster than what would generally be considered typical (not to mention hurt performance, which may or may not be a big deal). If I eat higher carb to reduce muscle catabolizm (or whatever the word is), then I burn less fat due to the available glycogen.

    Does it make sense to eat based on what I'm doing that day? Or is overkill? Does the body even adjust that quickly? Is this what the whole "food as fuel" thing is about?

    I would think that the typical bodybuilder diet gets thrown out the window when you add in more than average cardio. Higher activity level = higher carbohydrate need. The carbs would be protein sparing. \

    Also, you would be looking at a situation where rapid postworkout glycogen replenishment might actually have a use.
  • Lrdoflamancha
    Lrdoflamancha Posts: 1,280 Member
    Bump
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
    To me, the question is how much cardio in one session do you consider endurance cardio? I believe Steve Troutman put up some data about how doing them in the same day causes competing hormonal responses that offset the benefits of each.

    Beyond that, endurance cardio generally becomes catabolic around the 1.5 hour mark (varies from individual to individual) when glycogen is depleted. There are nutritional strategies for minimizing this effect. So, the answer to your question is it depends! They are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

    Right... and that's the general understanding I've come away with after everything I've read. The part I have trouble with (or maybe where I overthink???) is the catabolic effects of glycogen depletion.

    Typical body comp nutrition is (relatively speaking) high fat/protein, low carb. Typical endurance nutrition is high carb (and crazy high carb when optimal performance is required, i.e. racing). If I eat for body comp goals and go somewhat low carb, then I'll burn through glycogen stores faster during cardio work, and thus turn catabolic faster than what would generally be considered typical (not to mention hurt performance, which may or may not be a big deal). If I eat higher carb to reduce muscle catabolizm (or whatever the word is), then I burn less fat due to the available glycogen.

    Does it make sense to eat based on what I'm doing that day? Or is overkill? Does the body even adjust that quickly? Is this what the whole "food as fuel" thing is about?

    I would think that the typical bodybuilder diet gets thrown out the window when you add in more than average cardio. Higher activity level = higher carbohydrate need. The carbs would be protein sparing. \

    Also, you would be looking at a situation where rapid postworkout glycogen replenishment might actually have a use.

    * and here's my "ah ha" moment *

    Thanks.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    To me, the question is how much cardio in one session do you consider endurance cardio? I believe Steve Troutman put up some data about how doing them in the same day causes competing hormonal responses that offset the benefits of each.

    Beyond that, endurance cardio generally becomes catabolic around the 1.5 hour mark (varies from individual to individual) when glycogen is depleted. There are nutritional strategies for minimizing this effect. So, the answer to your question is it depends! They are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

    If I eat for body comp goals and go somewhat low carb, then I'll burn through glycogen stores faster during cardio work, and thus turn catabolic faster than what would generally be considered typical (not to mention hurt performance, which may or may not be a big deal). If I eat higher carb to reduce muscle catabolizm (or whatever the word is), then I burn less fat due to the available glycogen.

    ?
    While I know that eating somewhat lower carb can help with body recomposition and fat burning during strength training, I'm not sure is is all that much more beneficial as you will use a combination of all energy sources while exercising and not fat exclusively.

    I think what becomes a difficult balancing act is to try to accomplish too many different things at the same time. Kind of like, you can do a) low carb to maximze fat burn b) strength training c) endurance training while minimizing the catabolic effect. Pick 2 out of the 3.

    Edited to add: And again fire_rock for the win! I'll just be quiet now and let him answer!! lol
  • snowbike
    snowbike Posts: 153 Member
    Here's a good article with references....

    http://ezinearticles.com/?Does-Aerobic-Exercise-Cause-Muscle-Wasting?&id=657920

    Worth a read.
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
    Right... and that's the general understanding I've come away with after everything I've read. The part I have trouble with (or maybe where I overthink???) is the catabolic effects of glycogen depletion.

    Typical body comp nutrition is (relatively speaking) high fat/protein, low carb. Typical endurance nutrition is high carb (and crazy high carb when optimal performance is required, i.e. racing). If I eat for body comp goals and go somewhat low carb, then I'll burn through glycogen stores faster during cardio work, and thus turn catabolic faster than what would generally be considered typical (not to mention hurt performance, which may or may not be a big deal). If I eat higher carb to reduce muscle catabolizm (or whatever the word is), then I burn less fat due to the available glycogen.

    Does it make sense to eat based on what I'm doing that day? Or is overkill? Does the body even adjust that quickly? Is this what the whole "food as fuel" thing is about?

    How does your food intake/nutrient timing affect your performance now? Also are you on a cut or a bulk at the moment?
  • scorpio516
    scorpio516 Posts: 955 Member
    I'm going to side with "depends".

    It depends on if your looking to compete or just complete.
    If you're just looking to complete an IM, the cut off is 17 hours (2:20, 10:30, 4:10). Extra muscle mass isn't going to be a limiting factor as long as you fuel.

    If you're looking to compete for an AG podium, that's a LOT faster. The top 3 M35-39 at IM FL finished between 9:08 and 9:19. The top AG'er finished in 8:58. They all split about 1:00/4:30/3:15.

    On the other hand, have you seen what Craig Alexander looks like?
    Craig-Alexander-biceps-500.jpeg

    And he's a 3x ironman world champion, 5'11, 150lbs.
  • BusyRaeNOTBusty
    BusyRaeNOTBusty Posts: 7,166 Member
    I think genetics plays big role. My husband is an endurance mountain bike racer (100km to 100mi) yet still has a pretty muscular physique and he hasn't lifted in a couple of years (but he lifted off and on for 20 years before getting into the endurance biking).
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
    Right... and that's the general understanding I've come away with after everything I've read. The part I have trouble with (or maybe where I overthink???) is the catabolic effects of glycogen depletion.

    Typical body comp nutrition is (relatively speaking) high fat/protein, low carb. Typical endurance nutrition is high carb (and crazy high carb when optimal performance is required, i.e. racing). If I eat for body comp goals and go somewhat low carb, then I'll burn through glycogen stores faster during cardio work, and thus turn catabolic faster than what would generally be considered typical (not to mention hurt performance, which may or may not be a big deal). If I eat higher carb to reduce muscle catabolizm (or whatever the word is), then I burn less fat due to the available glycogen.

    Does it make sense to eat based on what I'm doing that day? Or is overkill? Does the body even adjust that quickly? Is this what the whole "food as fuel" thing is about?

    How does your food intake/nutrient timing affect your performance now? Also are you on a cut or a bulk at the moment?

    Sustaining relatively low carb hurts my endurance... especially on longer workouts. It's the off season, so ultimately it isn't a big deal, but my ego doesn't like sub-par performance. So it's really just about personal satisfaction and motivation rather than actual time and race results.

    Right now I'm on a cut, shooting to be around 100g fat, 100g carbs, 200g protein for optimal body comp progress.
  • Marmitegeoff
    Marmitegeoff Posts: 373 Member
    Bump to read later
  • DavPul
    DavPul Posts: 61,406 Member
    The answer is "Yes....but".

    Meaning that the body adaptations required to build endurance are diametrically opposed to the adaptations required to build or even hold on to a large amount of muscle. Keep in mind that surplus muscle mass is a luxury and your body will dump it at the first sign of conflict. Old school bodybuilding advice basically consisted of lift, eat, and lie still.

    That said, unless you are going for the most massive physique your genetics will let you achieve or training to become a professional long distance runner, you can easily achieve a balance. For 99% of the people on MFP, balance is what they are looking for anyway so this whole conversation becomes theoretical instead of practical. You can lift and run or bike or whatever and you'll be fine.

    One thing I will add is that cardio has a greater detrimental effect on lifting than vice versa. For those trying to build a bit more mass or definition, easing back on the cardio for a while would be a good idea.
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
    Sustaining relatively low carb hurts my endurance... especially on longer workouts. It's the off season, so ultimately it isn't a big deal, but my ego doesn't like sub-par performance. So it's really just about personal satisfaction and motivation rather than actual time and race results.

    Right now I'm on a cut, shooting to be around 100g fat, 100g carbs, 200g protein for optimal body comp progress.

    Hmmmmm, that's only 2100 calories. How big of a deficit is that running you?

    I agree with Rock (as usual). Temper your goals with the fact that you're shooting for two different things at once and won't see the progress in each that someone specializing might. That and eat for what you're doing.

    More interesting in my eyes is how best to line up your cut and bulk cycle with the racing season. Off the cuff I would think you'd want to be bulking in season (though knowing how much time went into my buddy's cardio sessions when he was training for an Iron Man I recognize that you simply may not have the time to train that much or ability to eat that much food per day) for energy reasons and because then you aren't running races on an energy deficit. Additionally it would mean that on cuts you'd be able to focus on body comp a bit more and just try to maintain strength and endurance ability. I think that's going to play a big role in things as well.
  • Helloitsdan
    Helloitsdan Posts: 5,564 Member
    I like this....
    http://jasonferruggia.com/muscle-building-cardio/

    Another fav ::::WARNING:::: This site is good but very raw.
    It's not intended for those who are easily offended....
    http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2011/04/run-and-youll-only-die-tired-science.html

    Always a good site for this type of info.....
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/cardio-and-mass-gains.html

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