Do I need protein shakes?

About 1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass is generally recommended for someone lifting weights. The generic setting that MFP uses is very low. You can customize those settings, but you'll have to sacrafice the calories from one of your other macros to increase protein. To get lean body mass, estimate your body fat as closely as you can, subtract that from 100 percent and what is left is percent of lean body mass. This site has a good calculator and some more information.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/lbm_calculator.htm

I think I eat quite a lot of protein - chicken most lunchtime when I am at work!

Just not sure if it is possible to build muscle while losing weight. x

About 1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass is generally recommended for someone lifting weights. The generic setting that MFP uses is very low. You can customize those settings, but you'll have to sacrafice the calories from one of your other macros to increase protein. To get lean body mass, estimate your body fat as closely as you can, subtract that from 100 percent and what is left is percent of lean body mass. This site has a good calculator and some more information.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/lbm_calculator.htm

^this

With that said, you don't NEED protein shakes if you are hitting your daily amount through whole foods. If you already have a diet consisting of lean meats and fish, you may find that you get enough protein already. Shakes are used as a supplement to help you hit your protein goal if you find you aren't getting enough from your meals.

I think I eat quite a lot of protein - chicken most lunchtime when I am at work!

Just not sure if it is possible to build muscle while losing weight. x

Once again protein is over rated. I eat about 100g of protein and have a LBM of 196lbs. With reduce protein intake amino acid oxidation goes up. Also carbs are muscle sparing. The guy above said you need protein to recover from workouts. He seemed semi educated he also knows that muscles mostly burn glucose aka carbs.

So save your money.

About 1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass is generally recommended for someone lifting weights. The generic setting that MFP uses is very low. You can customize those settings, but you'll have to sacrafice the calories from one of your other macros to increase protein. To get lean body mass, estimate your body fat as closely as you can, subtract that from 100 percent and what is left is percent of lean body mass. This site has a good calculator and some more information.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/lbm_calculator.htm

^this

With that said, you don't NEED protein shakes if you are hitting your daily amount through whole foods. If you already have a diet consisting of lean meats and fish, you may find that you get enough protein already. Shakes are used as a supplement to help you hit your protein goal if you find you aren't getting enough from your meals.

Once again protein is over rated. I eat about 100g of protein and have a LBM of 196lbs. With reduce protein intake amino acid oxidation goes up. Also carbs are muscle sparing. The guy above said you need protein to recover from workouts. He seemed semi educated he also knows that muscles mostly burn glucose aka carbs.

So save your money.

Once again protein is over rated. I eat about 100g of protein and have a LBM of 196lbs. With reduce protein intake amino acid oxidation goes up. Also carbs are muscle sparing. The guy above said you need protein to recover from workouts. He seemed semi educated he also knows that muscles mostly burn glucose aka carbs.

So save your money.

Are you saying .5 grams of protein per pound of BW, the amount you eat, is equally as sufficient as 1g of protein per pound of BW in terms of muscle sparing/protein synthesis? I don't see how you could substantiate that claim.

Most research agrees there is no correlation between protein synthesis and protein intake. I did not say BW as in Total body weight, I said LBM(Lean Body Mass). More protein won't hurt. If you want to take it go ahead, but it's not necessary.

Here is a study on renal disease and protein intake.

People with renal disease must consume low amounts of protein to delay their disease. They must under 0.3g of protein per pound of body weight. A man of 160lbs would consume 48g of protein. Their disease is highly catabolic(breaks down their muscles). One group lifted weights while the other group did not. Even with ridiculous low amount of protein the group that lifted weights had a slight increase of LBM. The group who didn’t do any resistance training? They lost 7lbs of LBM. This shows how powerful resistance training can be.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11730397

What about these studies then?

The current RDA for protein intake is .8g/kg of bodyweight. The real kicker here is that they claim that there is no benefit to eating more than that. I simply want to arm people with research that disputes this.

So, here we go:

1.4-2g of protein per kg of bodyweight is beneficial for individuals engaged in intense exercise:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20048505
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19278045
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17908291
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18500966

2-3g/kg is beneficial for athletes:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14971434

Older subjects lost lean mass getting the RDA protein recommendations (.8g/kg):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11382798

Double the RDA outperformed the RDA for individuals in a calorie deficit:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/495538
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16046715

Triple the RDA outperformed the RDA for individuals in a calorie deficit: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19927027

Subjects with a 1.5g/kg protein intake lost fat and gained lean mass:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10838463

Of people that don't exercise, high protien intake causes less lean-mass loss:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17299116

Protein intake has no effect?

what about these studies...

Steroids and muscle growth

There was a steroid study that contained 43 men who were experienced weight lifters. There were 4 groups in the study.
* Group 1: NO EXERCISE + NO STERIODS
* Group 2: EXERCISE + NO STERIODS
* Group 3: NO EXERCISE + WEEKLY STEROID INJECTION
* Group 4: EXERCISE + WEEKLY STEROID INJECTION.

Each member of this study consumed roughly 120g of protein (which is on the lower side of current recommendations) and about 16calories per pound of bodyweight.

Group 1: no gain in LBM
Group 2: gained 4.5lbs
Group 3: gained more than group 1
Group 4: gained over 13lbs of LBM

120g of protein was sufficient protein to be able to build up to 13lbs of LBM.
[Bhasin S, 1996].

Lacto-ovo vegeterians

Lacto-ovo vegeterians(I’ll just call them veggie’s for short) Consume about 79g of protein and about 450 calories less than non-vegetarians. Non veggie’s consume about 138g of protein on a daily basis. Both groups in this study gained between 2-5lbs of LBM. The point of this study is to show once you meet the minimum requirements you don’t need more protein. Remember 5lbs of LBM is what can be gained with a good resistance plan. In this study both groups came close to average results, even the veggies who ate very low amounts of protein.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14600563

Renal Disease

People with renal disease must consume low amounts of protein to delay their disease. They must under 0.3g of protein per pound of body weight. A man of 160lbs would consume 48g of protein. Their disease is highly catabolic(breaks down their muscles). One group lifted weights while the other group did not. Even with ridiculous low amount of protein the group that lifted weights had a slight increase of LBM. The group who didn’t do any resistance training? They lost 7lbs of LBM. This shows how powerful resistance training can be.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11730397

Excessive calories

In this study both groups consumed 2010 calories in addition to their normal daily intake. Group 1 also consumed an additional 106g of protein and group 2 consumed only an extra 24g of protein. The results are group 1 gained 6lbs of lBM and group 2 gained 7.5lbs while consuming roughly 120g of protein total. Yes the LOWER protein group gained LBM than the higher protein group.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11591884

• Tarnopolsky et al. (1992) observed no differences in whole body protein synthesis or indexes of lean body mass in strength athletes consuming either 0.64g/lb or 1.10g/lb over a 2 week period. Protein oxidation did increase in the high protein group, indicating a nutrient overload.
• Walberg et al. (1988) found that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance in cutting weightlifters over a 7 day time period.
• Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.
• Lemon et al. (1992) found no differences in muscle mass or strength gains in novice bodybuilders consuming either 0.61g/lb or 1.19g/lb over a 4 week period. Based on nitrogen balance data, the authors recommended 0.75g/lb.
• Hoffman et al. (2006) found no differences in body composition, strength or resting hormonal concentrations in strength athletes consuming either 0.77g/lb or >0.91g/lb over a 3 month period.

We both have 10 studies if i counted correctly. Does that mean if I had 11 I'd be right?

I think I eat quite a lot of protein - chicken most lunchtime when I am at work!

Just not sure if it is possible to build muscle while losing weight. x

No, you can't build muscle while in a deficit but as mentioned it will help with recovery and help you maintain your current lean body mass which is very important. I will echo the suggestion 1g of protein per pound of lean body mass that you have. Probably around 100g a day I'm guessing. I would genuinely try to get there with whole foods but if you can't make it, then sure protein powder is an option. 100g of protein is easy to hit though, that's only 400 calories worth. Most people who are supplementing are trying to get much higher numbers, like 250, 300g+ of protein a day. It can get tiresome to eat that much meat Or they're vegetarians - lots will supplement for proper protein intake.

lolz - the debate on the above is here if anyone is interested. http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/787083-muscle-growth-protein-recommendations-highly-over-rated.


Oh, and you do realize that nitrogen balance is an imperfect measure of protein synthesis don't you? Which is the measure used for a bunch of the studies above.

Oh you do realize most of the "studies"( if you want to call them that) you posted just make claims. They don't talk about how experiments where conducted. They're just making blind claims like the study below

"Dietary protein is required to promote growth, repair damaged cells and tissue, synthesize hormones, and for a variety of metabolic activities. There are multiple sources of proteins available; however, animal sources of protein contain all essential amino acids and are considered complete sources of protein, whereas plant proteins lack some of the essential amino acids and are therefore classified as incomplete. There is a significant body of evidence to indicate that individuals who are engaged in intense training require more dietary protein than sedentary counterparts (ie, 1.4-2 g/kg/day). For most individuals, this level of protein intake can be obtained from a regular and varied diet. However, recent evidence indicates that ingesting protein and/or amino acids prior to, during, and/or following exercise can enhance recovery, immune function, and growth and maintenance of lean body mass. Consequently, protein and amino acid supplements can serve as a convenient way to ensure a timely and/or adequate intake for athletes. Finally, adequate intake and appropriate timing of protein ingestion has been shown to be beneficial in multiple exercise modes, including endurance, anaerobic, and strength exercise."

We obviously don't agree on this subject, we have contradicting studies. Since we can relay on the "education" what can we go off of? Experience.

Have you even tried to lower your protein intake, if you did, did you get negative results in terms of loss of LBM?

I am speaking from 2 perspectives, education AND experience.

lolz - the debate on the above is here if anyone is interested. http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/787083-muscle-growth-protein-recommendations-highly-over-rated.


Oh, and you do realize that nitrogen balance is an imperfect measure of protein synthesis don't you? Which is the measure used for a bunch of the studies above.

Oh you do realize most of the "studies"( if you want to call them that) you posted just make claims. They don't talk about how experiments where conducted. They're just making blind claims like the study below

"Dietary protein is required to promote growth, repair damaged cells and tissue, synthesize hormones, and for a variety of metabolic activities. There are multiple sources of proteins available; however, animal sources of protein contain all essential amino acids and are considered complete sources of protein, whereas plant proteins lack some of the essential amino acids and are therefore classified as incomplete. There is a significant body of evidence to indicate that individuals who are engaged in intense training require more dietary protein than sedentary counterparts (ie, 1.4-2 g/kg/day). For most individuals, this level of protein intake can be obtained from a regular and varied diet. However, recent evidence indicates that ingesting protein and/or amino acids prior to, during, and/or following exercise can enhance recovery, immune function, and growth and maintenance of lean body mass. Consequently, protein and amino acid supplements can serve as a convenient way to ensure a timely and/or adequate intake for athletes. Finally, adequate intake and appropriate timing of protein ingestion has been shown to be beneficial in multiple exercise modes, including endurance, anaerobic, and strength exercise."

We obviously don't agree on this subject, we have contradicting studies. Since we can relay on the "education" what can we go off of? Experience.

Have you even tried to lower your protein intake, if you did, did you get negative results in terms of loss of LBM?

I am speaking from 2 perspectives, education AND experience.

I am absolutely not willing to lower my protein intake to make some anecdotal sample of n=1 non controlled study when I believe that I would run the risk of muscle loss based on peer reviewed studies and based on guidance from extremely well versed nutritional experts such as Aragon and Helms, Don't forget, leanness. training intensity and caloric deficit is also a factor in how much protein is optimal.

And I 'relayed' the information by providing the link to the first time you posted that study so that THIS thread was not derailed.

And I am not sure why you are calling them 'studies' in quotes as if indicating that they are not - what on earth else are they?

SO you're just talking from education. You know these studies are contradictory. You ever been in a lab, you know how that stuff works or no?

When do you need protein shakes?

I want to get into lifting weights so wasn't sure if I needed extra protein or how much. I am generally over the amount that MFP sets me.

Plus I have a lot of weight to lose so is it possible to build muscle and strength while losing all the excess weight?

Protein is overrated, so no you don't. You'll be fine.

How much is she currently taking, what are her stats and what is her deficit? Or is protein intake completely irrelevant?

Or do you just disregard it entirely?

can't be less than this raw foodist


or this guy, alkalarian diet... 90% green vegetables


Pretty sure they have a facebook page, look them and ask them.

Ryan Marcotte
Anthony Anderson.

Oh and BOTH at deficit

Just not sure if it is possible to build muscle while losing weight. x