Deep Sqauts: Personal Trainer vs Physical Therapist

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  • lorcart
    lorcart Posts: 406 Member
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    DON'T go past parallel, stick your butt out....pretend you're holding onto a bumper to pee off the back of a car! lol But don't go past parallel!
  • busywaterbending
    busywaterbending Posts: 844 Member
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    your boot camp instructor is obviously not a CPT and you need to listen to your doctor. You said you have bone on bone crunching. dafuq you going to a boot camp for? You have serious knee problems. Get yourself some PT asap to correct your knee problems.

    ALL joints should have fluidity, separation, healthy range of motion. Your knees obviously have none of that. I wouldn't touch you with a 10 foot pole let alone have you as my client. I'd be afraid you would sue me.
  • Chief_Rocka
    Chief_Rocka Posts: 4,710 Member
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    The doctor is giving you the safest advice. A good trainer will be able to fix your squat issues.
  • Bobby__Clerici
    Bobby__Clerici Posts: 741 Member
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    This is even a question?

    Listen to the medical doctor.
    ^^^^^^
    THIS
    Again, once you're under the care of a physician addressing specific issues, no competent personal trainer would come back with conflicting advice knowing your situation. That would be absurd.
    I'd fire him on the spot!
  • geogal95
    geogal95 Posts: 47 Member
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    What's all this talk about suing? Good god - what has this world come to? I would not sue anyone over this. Many people are taking this WAY out of context.

    Very simple: My trainer is not disagreeing with the therapists analysis or treatment plan. He is only stating that her information about what caused it may be misguided. That's all. Could be genetics. Could be my locked knees when I'm standing (as she says I do). I just want to get them healthy and continue doing what I love to do, and that is what they BOTH want for me, and between the two of them I have no doubt I will be better than ever. Thank you for all the advice.
  • haroon_awan
    haroon_awan Posts: 1,208 Member
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    First off, as I am sure you know by now, squats are a great exercise. The problem is that a lot of people have lower back issues, and so squatting or very deep squatting is not a good idea to begin with. My advice would be with your trainer: squatting below parallel is not an issue and recent studies have pointed this out:
    http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/960/Five_Ways_To_Get_Stronger_Faster_Better_From_Squat.aspx
    (His references are at the bottom of the page for those interested)

    I would also say that you might want to consider avoiding the squat for a while - at least until you are better. Leg press instead, or do the principles of this article: http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/938/Leg_Training_Without_Squats.aspx
  • Elleinnz
    Elleinnz Posts: 1,661 Member
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    Pretty simple really - listen to your body - right know it tells you - I don't like the way you do squats!!
    Your physical therapist is right - don't go below parallel - or as my physical therapist calls them " potty squats"

    I have had a knee replacement in August, so really needed o do things different ....... Soooo my advice don't aggravate your knees more than you need to - your body will clearly tell you when you need to adapt things!

    On the patella re alignment (patella tracking) - my physical therapist taught me a way to tape my knee that helps with the alignment of my patella when I exercise - ask him / her about it - at least helps while I am working on strengthening my muscles

    http://www.physioadvisor.com.au/11343550/patella-taping-mcconnell-taping-physioadvisor.htm
  • astrampe
    astrampe Posts: 2,169 Member
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    I have a dilemma:

    My trainer says there is nothing wrong with it, that there is no actual medical evidence to support that doing a deep squat injures your knees. As long as they are done properly, it will only help. He has even provided articles to disprove what the therapist says.

    Thanks!

    Is your trainer a medical professional? If not, listen to the medical professional.....

    I have bad knees - and squats definitely helped to make the surrounding muscles stronger, BUT if I do deep squats (*kitten* to grass) it hurts like hell and make walking downs a few stairs miserable...Logical conclusion (for me anyways) keep doing squats, but refrain from doing them so deep that it cause pain.....
  • lizziebeth1028
    lizziebeth1028 Posts: 3,602 Member
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    Always ALWAYS listen to your Doctor first!!

    On a side note - I'm old school (lol like 1980's jazzercise) we were always told NOT to go deep into the squat, so that's the way I've always done mine. No science or research behind it....it's just what I'm comfortable with.
  • rah27liz
    rah27liz Posts: 12
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    As someone who is studying in the medical field, I say go with the PT. But, feel free to do your own research and look for articles that support/do not support the benefits or risks of this particular move. Ask the PT for articles that support his views. Books versus real life should never be a question, because someone who knows what they are doing in the health field will be looking at the scientific evidence and basing their professional opinion off of that. Hope that helps :)
  • Backous21
    Backous21 Posts: 7
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    This is something that varies from individual to individual. My experience is that those with a history of knee problems should never to deeper than ~80 degree bend of the knee. However, if you do not have knee problems, there is nothing wrong with going below parallel, provided that you hold good form (back straight and knees behind toes). It has been shown that force actually is at it's peak at a 90 degree bend of the knee.

    Much of the distribution of force has a lot to do with knee position (behind toes and not deviating medially or laterally). Many people have a really tough time keeping their knees behind their toes during below parallel squats, usually because your quadriceps are at such a mechanical disadvantage. Again, the condition of your joints and your form will dictate weather or not you should perform an exercise.

    Reference to the study showing where forces peak during squats. You'll notice that it is during the concentric phase at 90 degrees.

    http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/scmsAdmin/uploads/006/008/Gullet et al 2009 - J Strength & Conditioning Research.pdf
  • Loftearmen
    Loftearmen Posts: 380
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    Chances are that neither of them know how to squat properly. Surprisingly, being a personal trainer or a physical therapist DOES NOT mean that they know anything about exercise, period. Chances are, the depth to which you are squatting is not the problem at all and you do not know how to sit back into your squats properly thus placing excess pressure on your knees. You also are probably using more quad than posterior chain while squatting (this is sort of the universal problem with newbie squatters). This can cause a lot of knee pain. I posted a link below here for you to watch, watch the whole series and PM me if you have any questions. Good luck.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ME8gEN54Ao

    edit: For clarification, I am a competitive powerlifter, certified personal trainer and an electroneurophysiologist; however, working as a cpt and in medicine taught me absolutely nothing about how to lift properly.
  • geogal95
    geogal95 Posts: 47 Member
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    Thanks everyone. I went to the gym today and modified my workout to what my PT wanted. I also just listened to them. When they told me to stop, I stopped. As my trainer told me today, "you have come so far already. It's better to come in and do 75%, then to do 100% and take yourself out of commission for 6 weeks". Good advice. I am referencing all of your remarks and links and thank you for your help.
  • RepkeFitness
    RepkeFitness Posts: 2 Member
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    Physical therapists have a Doctorate Degree ANYONE can call themselves a personal trainer and even those who are certified tend to have very little formal education. 1. Listen to your physical therapist, 2. Listen to your body, 3. Listen to your body, 4. Listen to your body, 5., Listen to your trainer.

    Here's a great study done with healthy athletes and even they are recommended to NOT squat below parallel
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11194098
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,727 Member
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    HelloDan wrote: »
    Ask the therapist why they advise this?

    All might become apparent why they think it is a bad idea, as it might be something specific to your condition. Then again you might discover the therapist suggests this to everyone, even those with healthy knees.

    Either way, you have a bit more information, which will help the decision.

    What is your therapist doing to help you develop the strength/balance/coordination to return to ATG squats.

    My PT suggested I back off from ATG while I worked on my Glute activation/hip mobility.

    IF the PT advice is "never ATG" then there's likely an issue, unless you have an unmentioned physical issue.
  • CipherZero
    CipherZero Posts: 1,418 Member
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    If the metric we're using to restore someone to as full physical functioning as possible, my experience with physical therapists is they're at best useless to this endeavor. The whole "squats bad for knees/ don't go below parallel / no knees past toes" is entirely made up out of whole cloth.
  • CipherZero
    CipherZero Posts: 1,418 Member
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    Hadabetter wrote: »
    And one of the most respected trainers in the country, Dan Riley (Google "Dan Riley strength coach"), advises against doing squats of any kind due to the risks associated with repeated vertical loading of the spine. He advises leg presses as an alternative.

    Then Dan Riley is an idiot, because there's no danger at all in vertical loading of the spine in a properly performed barbell squat. The spine is a moment arm in a squat, not a prime mover.
  • GiddyupTim
    GiddyupTim Posts: 2,819 Member
    edited July 2017
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    DrMAvDPhD wrote: »
    This is even a question?

    Listen to the medical doctor.

    Therapists are not medical doctors. However, consulting one for a third opinion is a good idea. Orthopeadic surgeon would be your best bet.

    This is what I was going to say.
    Your trainer is not a medical person and it sounds like your knee issues are a medical issue.
    On the other hand, what the physical therapist is telling you is the old-school canard about squatting.
    Get another medical opinion. See what the new person says.
    (I am not sure I would go with an orthopedic surgeon, though. They only see people with serious, serious issues, and they do not see or work with healthy people. So they do not necessarily have perspective. Also, they don't really follow people or work with them. They see someone once. They operate. They say goodbye. It's not the kind of attention that breeds expertise, except for surgery.)

    Wait a second.....How did i get suckered into a four-year-old thread?
  • ijsantos2005
    ijsantos2005 Posts: 306 Member
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    I would bet that the medical professional is repeating a myth and probably would tell everyone to squat to parallel.

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