Back Squat Help

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A few up-front confessions first...
I work out at home - no spotter, no trainer, no one to give me on-site advice. I use a power cage for safety.
I have never had a personal trainer, so my technique could be suspect from the ground up, but so far I managed to keep from killing myself.
My only source of information has been Starting Strength, YouTube and a few internet forums.

Now, on to my issues...
I have struggled to increase my weight on my squats for the last several weeks. I have plateaued at my current back-squat weight and I'm trying to figure out how to overcome the issue. When I load the bar heavy, both as I descend and as a I stand up, my knees tend to buckle inwards. I also tend to roll forward onto my toes. I know this is not good form and therefore is probably very dangerous on my knees. With lighter weights, my form seems pretty solid and I do not experience these trouble spots.

My thought is that my hamstrings are weak and causing me to overcompensate with my quads (I think I'm shifting the weight forward to put more of the stress on the quads and less on the hamstrings.)

What exercises can I do to strengthen the hamstrings to help with this? Is this even the problem? I'm just winging it here, so any and all advise is welcome, even it is just "Be happy you ain't blown out your knee yet, knucklehead."

Replies

  • jasonp_ritzert
    jasonp_ritzert Posts: 357 Member
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    It's not uncommon to plateau every now and the. Have you been doing the same workout for a while (over 8 weeks)? If so, try changing up the number of reps/sets. You can also try changing the rate you descend/ascend during your squat such as doing a 3 count on the way down and a 3 count on the way up, etc.

    Since you are going based on videos, etc., I suggest having someone watch you do squats to ensure you are doing them property. That's a benefit of a gym sometimes are the people and mirrors. If you are rolling forward on your toes, to me it sounds as though you are not dropping your hips enough and are leaning forward with the weight that may ultimately put a lot of pressure on your back because I had the same problem years ago.

    To strenthen your hamstrings, you can always do deadlifts or straight-leg deadlifts. Also, I like to do front squats in my routine, which focus more on the quad and do lunges to get some variety.
  • jpierc
    jpierc Posts: 31 Member
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    I have tried to follow the Stronglifts 5x5 routine to start with, but that began back in June of 2012. I have altered the program after plateauing (dropping to 3x5) and have held to that until now. I enjoy the heavy lifts and don't want to stop, but I fear for my knees.

    As for changing the speed, that would require changing the weight. It is hard to slow down the weight when you're at or close to the max weight for a particular lift. I can back down for a few weeks and see what that does. As of right now, I'm stuck, so it wouldn't hurt anything.

    The hip idea is correct (I think). I need to drop my hips more. On anything under 300 lbs, the hips are not a problem. I can go *kitten*-to-grass there, but once I get over 300 lbs, I suffer the issues mentioned.

    I'll add in a few routines of straight-leg deads to see if that helps. I already do the typical deadlifts, but I think they suffer from the same muscle failure issue or form issue or whatever it is that is holding me back.

    Then again, it could be I've just hit my max. I don't know.
  • FullOfWin
    FullOfWin Posts: 1,414 Member
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    Glute-ham raises, sldl

    How long have you been at it? Have you deloaded and worked back up? Are you bulking or cutting? You can't gain strength forever without eating enough to gain weight.
  • jasonp_ritzert
    jasonp_ritzert Posts: 357 Member
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    By reading that you've gone from 5x5 to 3x5, so you've only dropped the number of sets? I really think you need to vary the number of reps if that is the case. I keep my rep range typically in the 8-10 range; however, when I start to plateau I drop it to 5-6 reps for about a month and then raise it up to 10-12 for a month and then go back to my 8-10 range with a refreshed outlook on it again. Like Fullofwin said, it depends on your goals as to what you should do but it sounds to me as if you are comprimising your form for heavier weights. I personally think that weight lifting is the biggest ego check because we need to realize that the only person we are competing with is ourselves and the only way to 'win' is to get better (i.e., lift heavier weights, run longer, etc.) but it shouldn't be done in a way that cheats ourselves such as poor form.
  • Gunsentry
    Gunsentry Posts: 121 Member
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    Take a deload and do a form check.

    If your still not progressing in good form after the deload and the issues remain may be time again to change to 1x5 SL or switch to an intermediate program. MadCow or 5/3/1.

    300lbs is not bad squatting for reps btw that's a respectable amount of weight to shift.
  • FullOfWin
    FullOfWin Posts: 1,414 Member
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    I just saw 300 lbs. Its time for an intermediate routine.
  • healthyKYgirl
    healthyKYgirl Posts: 272 Member
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    Here's a good thing I found about this on the internet and it parallels my training with a my PT who is a competitive powerlifter and knows what he's talking about. So I have to remember to push out, and squat to stands and body weight squats (third world squats) really helped with hip strength and flexibility and mobility which helped with my squat immensely and the knee caving in on the squat. I only come up on my toes when I don't tighten my core or sit back enough or get really tired on my last rep.

    ======== I hope this information below helps. =========

    Knees Caving In

    Knees kicking is sometimes just a technique issue. A simple cue of "push your knees out" can fix the problem immediately. A deeper issue might be weak hip abductors (i.e. the glutes are not functioning properly) or the lifter might have tight hip adductors. X-band walks, lateral side-to-side walking against the resistance of an elastic band, can help to get the glutes contracting (firing) again. Another great drill to work the glute is abduction is to loop an elastic band around the outside of the lower quads while you squat to a bench. You want to make sure you are forcing your knees out the entire time, maintaining equal distance between the knees. This activates the glutes AND drills proper squat mechanics. If your adductors are tight, the squat to stand drill would be a great addition to your warm-up. Standing in a squat stance, reach down and grab under the front of each foot. Drive the hips downward and force the knees out around the outside of your straightened arms. Extend the hips back up to the starting point and repeat. Finally, squatting in running shoes might also be adding to the problem. The thick, cushioned soles are not stable enough to provide a good base to squat from, so the knees might not track properly on the descent or drive of the lift.


    Coming Up On Toes

    If you are coming up on your toes during your squat, first look at your form. Is the first movement of your squat setting your lower back and slightly moving your hips back? Or do you squat straight down? If you squat straight down and you have tight ankles, you will have more of a tendency to come up on your toes during the squat. Work on setting (bracing hard to maintain your natural arch) your lower back and starting the movement by moving your hips back slightly before you lower. You’ll also want to work on keeping your elbows pulled down (facing the ground) and your chest up. These important squat technique tips will ensure that the torso remains more upright throughout the lift and keep you from falling forward.

    Many lifters typically put a 5-10lb plate under their heels to help them hit a deeper squat. By putting the plate under their heels they are compensating for a lack of ankle mobility. Ankle mobility is an issue for most everybody because of our reliance of stabile footwear during the day, at work or when we play sports. Losing this mobility will not allow our shins to move forward naturally as we squat down. They will remain more vertical. Ankle mobility drills can help restore normal ankle movement and better squat form. One popular drill has the lifter face wall in a staggered stance. The lead foot is planted flat and about 1' away from the wall. The lifter will drive their knee forward trying to touch the wall with their knee. The key is making sure the heel does not come up and the foot remains flat. Slide the knee forward and back tracking over the toes for several reps and multiple sets.
  • dzarello
    dzarello Posts: 119 Member
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    Concerning the weight of your squats--if you have "plateaued" and have not been able to progress, then take 10% of the weight that you are doing and subtract that off and work your way back up-->300 x 10% = 30lbs --> 300 - 30 = 270

    Form sounds likes its crap. Weak hamstrings, core and back could all be your problem. Knees caving inward, rolling forward onto toes--weight is too heavy for you too handle. Back the weight off and really focus on form. Chest up, head up, push knees outward, keep the back arched. You could also try widening your squat stance. Box squatting is another good way to work on form.

    Hamstring work has been mentioned--Straight leg deadlift, deadlift, more light weight squatting, band pull throughs, weighted pull throughs, good mornings, glute ham raises. Hell even pull ups and heavy db rows would help strengthen your upper/lower back and core.

    Check out "So you think you can squat". Very good video/tips/pointers. Dave Tate is the best in the business.

    Good Luck!
  • jpierc
    jpierc Posts: 31 Member
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    I have attempted the deload idea a few times. Currently I'm back down to a 300lbs squat and I notice this is about where my form breaks. Each time, I ignore the form issues (yep, ego gets in the way and risks injury) and build back up to around 315-320 lbs and my issues limit my progress. I can get the 320 fully the first set (slightly shallow on the drop, hip is parallel with knees but not below knees), but then things go downhill from there.

    Based strictly on my measurements (weight, body fat, etc), I am bulking and have been for about 5 months. My current weight is about 175 lbs and body fat is around 17.5% (based on the bathroom scale). Being diabetic, I am not fond of the idea of bulking/cutting. (Apparently I really like bulking based on how my weight is slowly climbing.) My diary is open for anyone who is interested in my food habits and my exercise breakdowns. EVERYTHING is documented in there: food and when it was eaten, exercise and when it was done, my blood glucose readings (being diabetic is why I joined MFP) and anything else I can log.

    As for goals, my ultimate goal is to not be the broken old fat guy, but the more immediate answer is to first and foremost gain strength and if possible to do it without gaining fat. I don't want to be Mr. Universe, but I would like to be leaner, stronger and more athletic.
  • jfrankic
    jfrankic Posts: 747 Member
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    Video yourself doing a couple of sets from a few angles and have someone experienced review it for form. There could be little things that are adding up. Hope your form turns out to be great and you can bust through the plateau!
  • dzarello
    dzarello Posts: 119 Member
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    I have attempted the deload idea a few times. Currently I'm back down to a 300lbs squat and I notice this is about where my form breaks. Each time, I ignore the form issues (yep, ego gets in the way and risks injury) and build back up to around 315-320 lbs and my issues limit my progress. I can get the 320 fully the first set (slightly shallow on the drop, hip is parallel with knees but not below knees), but then things go downhill from there.

    Based strictly on my measurements (weight, body fat, etc), I am bulking and have been for about 5 months. My current weight is about 175 lbs and body fat is around 17.5% (based on the bathroom scale). Being diabetic, I am not fond of the idea of bulking/cutting. (Apparently I really like bulking based on how my weight is slowly climbing.) My diary is open for anyone who is interested in my food habits and my exercise breakdowns. EVERYTHING is documented in there: food and when it was eaten, exercise and when it was done, my blood glucose readings (being diabetic is why I joined MFP) and anything else I can log.

    As for goals, my ultimate goal is to not be the broken old fat guy, but the more immediate answer is to first and foremost gain strength and if possible to do it without gaining fat. I don't want to be Mr. Universe, but I would like to be leaner, stronger and more athletic.

    How are you "bulking" when you only eat 2000 calories a day? This might also be your issue. Trying to move too heavy of a weight and not having enough energy to move it. If you want to be stronger, you need to start eating like it. Practice form on squats and keep lifting heavy. Plateaus will happen, you just have to be strong and patient enough to work through them.
  • kuntry_navy
    kuntry_navy Posts: 677 Member
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    Glute-ham raises, sldl

    yep, best things ever to improve your squat 1rm

    a trick i learned to keep me off my toes, imagine your hands are full and you gotta close the door behind you with your *kitten*

    here's a good youtube video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYMqN6vveB0
  • jpierc
    jpierc Posts: 31 Member
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    All of this is excellent advice. I will head home tonight and see if I can put this to use. I love the idea of the glute-ham raises, but I don't have a GHD. Bummer... I'll emphasize the single-leg dead-lifts and the other hamstring exercises and see where that gets me.

    Somehow, I think I'm gonna be a little sore tomorrow...

    Thanks to everyone for helping with this.
  • FullOfWin
    FullOfWin Posts: 1,414 Member
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    Honestly if you're squatting over 300 at 175, you need to get on an intermediate routine like texas method, madcow's 5x5, or 5/3/1 (little slower)