Mice become Obese WITHOUT Consuming Any More Calories
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...especially when there are plenty of studies and empirical evidence which confirm the validity of energy balance (caloric deficit) in the role of weight loss in actual human beings.How does that apply to us at all?
^ This would be the key question and this is also why it's important not to take the findings of a study and draw them out of context.0 -
I'm sorry, perhaps my reading comprehension skills are low tonight, but the very first line of that article states "shows that deletion of the clock gene Arntl, also known as Bmal1, in fat cells, causes mice to become obese, with a shift in the timing of when this nocturnal species normally eats" Yes I copy pasted that. They deleted a gene AND shifted timing? How does that apply to us at all?
No, it means that deleting that gene resulted in the shifted eating times. The timing change was a consequence of the knockout, not an additional treatment.
For the question 'how does this apply to us at all', I think it's important to define the utility of knockout studies. Removing a gene is designed to reveal causality of that gene in what may be a very complicated, multifaceted physiological process. The authors wanted to show that this gene is involved in the normal daily regulation of appetite. By selectively removing it (and in this case, only in one specific tissue type), what they reveal is that 1. This exact gene is important, on it's own, for regulating this process, and 2. That the action of this particular gene in this particular tissue type, is important.
So now we know something about how appetite is regulated at the genetic level, which is potentially important for treating appetite dysregulation, and understanding how complex neurophysiological processes such as 'feeling hungry' work in a whole body.
Genetic studies are vital for showing how various gene products interact with each other. A knockout mouse is abnormal, yes, but it is abnormal in a very controlled, very revealing way.0 -
Great research article. Thanks Sven.0
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The mice didn't eat more calories, but how much was their activity changed by the disruption of their normal behavior patterns?
I know if I'm sleep-deprived, I'm not running and jumping and bouncing off the walls all day burning calories like they're going out of style. Instead I'm basically doing as little as possible and moving as little as possible.
I can eat 2500 calories a day right now and lose or maintain my weight, and I could stay at 2500 and make myself obese "WITHOUT consuming any more calories" by turning into a zombie couch potato.0 -
BS for humans. At least for this human who has lost 70 lbs eating my dinner at 7 pm and a snack at 11:30 pm. Oh, and I don't eat breakfast until 1 in the afternoon. Maybe the mice should copy me.
I think it may be more fair to say, bs for you (well and me too), when applying simplified strategies and comparisons to this study. I think one of the difficulties and large variance of anecdotal "data" among real humans, is because the definition of "unnatural" times in humans is often unclear. There it's some pretty compelling evidence that in humans there is a strong genetic component to the spectrum of larks and owls all the way to the disorders on either side of the spectrum. So for someone like me, whose "natural" bedtime is early in the A.M and "natural" wake up time is after noon (diagnosed delayed circadian sleep disorder), where does that put my "unnatural" time for me to eat? The science isn't clear really, It just muddies the waters to a greater extent. Personally, I finally decided based on long trial and food logging and diary tracking (notes like sure this felt well, poorly, threw up etc), that it is "unnatural" for ME to eat during the times that it is "unnatural" for me to be awake, even if I'm up anyway as I must be for my job.
And that is one way humans are very different than mice. We are not all uniformly diurnal, some of us are nocturnal by biology.
So my question I guess (looking for anecdata is fun!) is for those who have been successful weight loss/maintain night eaters, and unsuccessful ones. Where do you fall on the lark night owl scale?0 -
The mice got fat because they were sleeping all day due to being up at such unnatural times
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For those of you asking how the metabolism of a human and rodent differ-Rats are carb burners; they consume and rapidly use large amounts of carbohydrates to survive. Humans are fat burners, meaning we don’t need carbs constantly since our body can easily store energy in the form of fat. Therefore, something that prevents obesity and activates lipid metabolism in rodents will have different effects in humans, unless those rodents’ metabolisms have been altered to mimic those of humans.
This is false. Both humans and rats (and again, this study used MICE) store energy both as fat and glycogen, and utilise both in very similar ways. Rats have an omnivorous diet very much like humans, will consume both fat and carbohydrate readily, and will gain weight on a caloric excess of either. Humans and rats both deplete free glucose, muscle gylcogen and stored fats during exertion, and all are converted to glucose for use as cellular energy. The terms 'carb burners' and 'fat burners' are not scientifically valid - all mammals burn a combination of both fuel types (if we assume 'carb burning' refers to glycogen).
I realize that all mammals burn a combination of both fuel types, but I'm under the impression that at a normal weight, a mouse will utilize and constantly replace glycogen stores more often than a human, who will tend to delve into fat stores more often. "Carb-burners" and "fat-burners" were simply given to us in class as a way to remember that difference. It's been a while since I learned about the specific differences, but I DO know that studies on mice are exploratory-they can give potentially important insight into potential issues but can't give reliable conclusions on their own.0 -
So do they like time travel or something? That's the only thing I can think of that would be an 'unnatural time' .0
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Mice eating at unnatural times? I'm pretty sure mice in the wild don't keep a schedule - they are mostly nocturnal, but I've seen them moving around in the barn in the daytime plenty of times. (Maybe I woke them?) My unnatural mouse ate at different times of the day or night depending on hunger I guess. She wasn't obese. (Or maybe she was - LOL) They just eat what they find when they find it and store what they don't eat for later. What other "unnatural" things were the mice subjected to in the lab? Just being in a lab is a bit unnatural, isn't it?
ETA: Not sure this mouse study translates to humans. At least not to all of us. I eat most of my cals in the evening and I have never been overweight.0 -
I gained 30kg while working night shift.Many studies show that there is a correlation with obesity related disease and night eating and night shift workers. The mechanism is not really known in humans but scientists think it could be the same as what is observed in these mice.
Not because it makes any difference at all what time of day you eat, but because it became TOO EASY to overeat.
Wake up 4pm
Eat dinner with family at 5.30pm - MEAL 1
Get to work at 7pm
Eat dinner at work at 8pm - MEAL 2
Snack on a large bag of chips, a block of chocolate, and a 2L bottle of coke (3000 calories total)
At around 2am, colleague would go to hungry jacks/mcdonalds/kfc (and of course it would be rude to say no to the offer) - ANOTHER MEAL
On the way home at 7am, McDonalds would tempt me and I'd get two sausage and egg mcmuffin meals.
I was gaining weight on night shift because I was eating upwards of 6000 calories a day. It sounds disgusting, I know, but its just TOO EASY. Most people who work night shift eat more/worse than people who work standard shifts.0 -
I think it's a very interesting piece of research, and thank you to everyone on this thread who has made it easier to grasp for me. It is fascinating how one tweaked gene changed so much, and how replacing the fats in their diet reversed the effect (correct me if I've misunderstood this).
As for repeating the experiment in humans, obviously we're not about to genetically modify an unborn child, but it would be interesting to know what effects there are if this, or a similar gene, is abnormal in a human.0 -
the mice in these studies are usually looking at epigenetic variation, its about the switching on and off of your genes really something not to worry about0
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AMEN!0
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Humans cannot make vitamin C.what is an unnatural time for a mouse? I'm hungry, I'm gonna nom on something!
Mice, like rats, are primarily nocturnal. So a mouse will naturally eat at night and sleep during the day. The study states that the mice with messed up internal clocks ate during the day, when they should have been sleeping. So there really is an unnatural time for a mouse to eat.We metabolize differently
How? Can you give some concrete examples?
Mice can.
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Oh wait... the mice that ate at night couldn't possibly have been as active as the control mice...
Because mice aren't NOCTURNAL.
You didn't even link to the study itself. The media love to grab on to sensational little tidbits like this and hand-pick what they want to publish about it. They know the headline will get you to read it. Who cares how legitimate the study is?
I agree... Mice aren't nocturnal. If you wake them up to eat, they will likely be less active during the day because they are tired. I worked night shifts for years and it didn't cause me to gain weight. I actually lost a bit (not a lot - about 10lbs) after I started because when I got off at 7am after a 12 hour night shift, I was too tired to cook my "dinner" and would grab whatever was fast (usually a sandwich instead of a big meal - so less calories). I tended to eat very unhealthy during that time. "Lunch" was usually chips and a soda from the vending machine. I didn't eat "breakfast" before going to work at 7pm because I was trying to get stuff done (feed kids, kids homework, dishes, laundry, etc, etc). Sometimes I would pick at whatever I had cooked for the kids, but deffinately not a true meal.
I still don't eat anything until late afternoon (never been a breakfast person) and always have a "bedtime snack" while watching tv in the evening. So in my personal experience, the time I eat has no effect on my weight loss. For me it's all about how many calories I eat vs what I burn.0 -
That is why they say that you should not eat after 6pm unless you are going to exercise.0
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If Dr. Jeffrey Friedman is anything like Dr. Oz I would stay away!0
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That is why they say that you should not eat after 6pm unless you are going to exercise.
No way... I eat at 10pm most nights then go right to bed! This is just not correct.0 -
The BODY controls energy balance, not us. We have very limited ability to affect our body weight, especially over the long term. Body weight is overwhelmingly INVOLUNTARILY regulated by neural circuitry.
The BODY fights back. Dr. Liebel has shwon the metabolic consequences to weight loss includes a 25 % DROP in metabolism- far gretaer than what would normally be expected from weight loss itself.
Lastly, stop invoking scientific laws. The laws of thermodynamics do NOT explain how mammalian fact cells are regulatedl. Science does not at all understand the chemical behavior of fat cells receptors.
They EXPLAIN NOTHING about obesity. The question is NOT if they apply, it is IF WE CAN INFER from these laws the behavior of mammalian fat cells- which we cannot.
Learn the SCOP OF APPLICABILITY of various laws.
Realize that BOTH theories and laws could be shown to be wrong at some tinme if there are data to suggest so.There is NO HERIARCHY WHATSOEVER between theories and laws in science.0 -
The BODY controls energy balance, not us. We have very limited ability to affect our body weight, especially over the long term. Body weight is overwhelmingly INVOLUNTARILY regulated by neural circuitry.
The BODY fights back. Dr. Liebel has shwon the metabolic consequences to weight loss includes a 25 % DROP in metabolism- far gretaer than what would normally be expected from weight loss itself.
Lastly, stop invoking scientific laws. The laws of thermodynamics do NOT explain how mammalian fact cells are regulated, you fool. Science does not at all understand the chemical behavior of fat cells receptors.
They EXPLAIN NOTHING about obesity. The question is NOT if they apply, it is IF WE CAN INFER from these laws the behavior of mammalian fat cells- which we cannot.
Learn the SCOP OF APPLICABILITY of various laws.
Realize that BOTH theories and laws could be shown to be wrong at some tinme if there are data to suggest so.There is NO HERIARCHY WHATSOEVER between theories and laws in science.
Funny, my body weight went up when I moved less and ate more and went down when I moved more and ate less....I must be a wizard!0 -
You're not too bright. You idiots on here are just pissed because my study( and 4 more) REFUTE the calories in/calories out DOGMA. The claoric hypothesis BY ITSELF IS FAR TOO SIMPLISTIC to explain obesity.
IT IS FAR MORE COMPLEX THAN THAT.
AGAIN, ALL OF YOU WEE RUDE FIST.
It does not refute the calories out dogma at all. And what are you? 12? The 'you did it first' is such a reasonable debating skill to have. Also, no-one called you a moron or an idiot, so your logic is off.0 -
Who's "they"?That is why they say that you should not eat after 6pm unless you are going to exercise.
I'd love to see any peer-reviewed scientific studies which correlate weight gain with eating after a certain time. Otherwise, I'll stick with the contention that it's an old wives' tale which has been scientifically disproven many times.0 -
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So how about you enlighten us with your theory of how weight loss really works? I'd be very interested to hear the explanation.
QFT0 -
I lost 90 lbs eating all the way up til bed time (11pm - 12am). The difference is I watched my calories, no matter what time of day it was.
This is idiotic.
this.. times 100 -
Here is a study that shows the complexity of obesity. These mice became OBESE WITHOUT consuming any more calories than control mice. They only ate at unnatural times.
There are at least four other studies like this demonstrating that you can fatten mice WITHOUT feeding them any more calories.
http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_Releases/2012/11/fitzgerald/
Phew!! It's a really good thing I am not a mouse. Thank goodness.0 -
When OP posted over here http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/749701-95-of-people-who-lose-weight-put-it-back-on-why that we can't change our inherited body weight by more than 8 lbs, I decided any other topics posted by them would be pretty useless.
Oh snap! This!0 -
Wait, Are you saying that obesity is caused by eating whatever you want at the wrong time? Hmmmm0
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Who's "they"?That is why they say that you should not eat after 6pm unless you are going to exercise.
I'd love to see any peer-reviewed scientific studies which correlate weight gain with eating after a certain time. Otherwise, I'll stick with the contention that it's an old wives' tale which has been scientifically disproven many times.
READ SCIENCEDAILY. THERE IS PLENTY OF RESEARCH SHOWING THE TIME AT WHICH YOU EAT MATTERS. YOU REFUSE TO ACCEPT IT.
Please cite it.0 -
Who's "they"?That is why they say that you should not eat after 6pm unless you are going to exercise.
I'd love to see any peer-reviewed scientific studies which correlate weight gain with eating after a certain time. Otherwise, I'll stick with the contention that it's an old wives' tale which has been scientifically disproven many times.
READ SCIENCEDAILY, YOU BAFOON. THERE IS PLENTY OF RESEARCH SHOWING THE TIME AT WHICH YOU EAT MATTERS. YOU REFUSE TO ACCEPT IT.
Please cite it.
Also, please do not send me PMs calling me an idiot, a bimbo or an *kitten*.0
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