Wits end about Carbs

:blushing: Thank you, sniffles. It's sweet of you to say that.

Order a copy of the Primal Blue Print and read it cover to cover. it is not on the fringe of being extreme or anything...........In fact, giving up grains is becoming more mainstream practice with doctors I am starting to hear and see from other people.

no thank you. I've read all I want to read about the primal blueprint. More power to you. Look, there are some good parts to it, but it stumbles in a few places as well. The biggest is grain in my opinion. But I also don't buy the concept of living like our ancestors. Those guys only lived 25 to 40 years, I'm pretty sure I want to live into my 80's or 90's thank you.

I'm not here to parrot any pseudo-science, I'm not here to parrot Sisson, Cordain, Taubes, or ANYONE in strict advocacy of a grain-free diet, but I REALLY would like to clear something up about lifespan (I posted this somewhere else here and I really think it applies better to this discussion).

Consider in ancient times the highest rates of disease weren't from the popular neolithic death agents of diabetes, heart disease, and elevated cancer rates. That didn't really come into play until the rise of modern agriculture and affluence in ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia. We're just now finding the ancient Egyptians (of affluence, anyway) suffered from quite a malady of diseases, maybe tied to their indulgent diets: http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/851/eg11.htm.

You'd be much more likely to die at a young age of the following in ancient times (before the rise of modern agriculture, modern medicine, and modern society as we know it): being mauled to a bloody pulp by a predator, hypothermia, famine, eating something poisonous, tribal war, getting clubbed in the head, or injury (which, without care was most likely fatal in those days). John Locke's Social Contract didn't fully exist in those days, so if you wanted to nail your brother's wife, he was basically entitled to beat your head with a rock and kill you. Sure, there were nomadic societies, but there was not a lot of protection from the elements, an angry opposing tribe, or predators.

So, what's my point here? Modern medicine is a beautiful thing and I don't think we can contribute a caveman's death solely to his propensity to dine on bone marrow and raw, freshly killed meat. The death rate in the middle ages was even higher thanks to lack of sanitation and widespread disease. Grok the caveman probably had a higher quality of life than someone living in modern Europe during the time of the Black Plague.

And...I'm not saying grains are to blame here, NO. But, overindulgence of anything - especially foods of empty nutrition, the ever-increasing amount of "sweetness" in our food supply, lack of movement...those are some pretty negative things that have accompanied the growth of modern society. And if we look at the basis of more traditional societies - modern day tribes in Brazil - we don't see them dropping dead at age 30. They may have a higher propensity to be killed by a predator like an anaconda, but their diet is in a more natural state than the remainder of the modern world, and no doubt they're not plagued by so many of our modern-day "lifestyle" maladies. And other societies of long lifespan DO eat grains (think Okinawa, Japan which has a concentration of centurians) or Mediterraneans, or the French. BUT, they also don't shun dietary fat, meat, and/or fish. They simply eat in moderation, have less stress, and move much more (even at an older age) than the majority of Americans.

What DO grains offer as a positive? Essentially a widespread, easily grown food source through modern agriculture that's capable of providing a readily available, semi non-perishable food source. Unfortunately we've done a nice job of mucking them up by over-processing them and adding them (namely in the form of thickeners and starches) to many processed foods. We also subsidize their growth through government and heavily modify their seed structure (thank ya Monsanto!), which are also both negative...but again, I digress. Grain avoidance, at this point, is mostly a personal choice. If someone is eating lower carb to control their weight, well, limiting grains and upping vegetable intake is generally a good choice. But certainly NOT a choice for everyone, as everyone is different.

So, to be clear here, I agree to an extent with your criticisms, but I don't agree that cavemen dropped dead at the age of 30 based on dietary factors. In the modern world, "natural" only goes so far, and I don't think ANYONE is giving a broad recommendation we drop all modern medicine and act completely like a caveman. I agree that's absolutely ridiculous, and I too, would be skeptic of anyone giving that advice.

I think other elements of primal life, be it modern tribal or paleolithic are highly applicable to the endless mire of dietary advice we're all fed - eat whole foods, get up off your butt and move, sprint occasionally, lift heavy things, don't eat poison (i.e. twinkies), and experience nature more often. I DO NOT choose to shun modern medical advancements or refuse to read scientific or medical publications. Most of which would agree with me that our modern lifestyle of stress, traffic, processed foods, germaphobia, and other phobias is making that 80 year lifespan far less enjoyable...

So uh, can we all get along? :flowerforyou:

So uh, can we all get along? :flowerforyou:

I'm all for getting along (and I'm sure Banks is as well) but I believe that as both of us were stating that there are benefits of grains, which you also have noted. I do not like having people try to shove it down my throat that eating primal/paleo/atkins is the 'only' way to go. I'm a vegetarian...I don't get on the threads about eating meat because that's not something I am interested in, nor do I want to shove my ideologies onto someone else. I've been attacked numerous times because I'm a vegetarian (all I can do is shrug it off). I'm also often attacked by the same two people on the boards. I try not to force my opinion onto anyone else and I avoid those two people like the plague. I also try to lead a natural life (granted soy can be heavily processed), I move often, eat whole grains, fruits, veggies, healthy fats, and vegetarian sources of protein/iron/omegas. My lifestyle while different from yours still has the same basic principles.

Yes, exactly. I think arguing semantics because "well so and so said this..." and "you absolutely shouldn't eat this..." is getting most of us nowhere. There's many pathways to a healthy life that have basically the same main goals. Just as much as I don't like eating something doesn't mean that someone else can't have it. It's their choice, and I'm cool with that. I'm not going to bust into a vegan forum and tell them to eat more bacon. LOL.

I've been responding to low carb threads just because I've eaten low carb for some time and I've always remained quite close to goal weight and active. But everyone's mileage varies like I've stated earlier...

And Banks, I think you offer great advice on here, but hey, I call this like I see it - I think we've gotten off on some rotten tangent on this thread (obviously I'm not helping it) - I think a simple statement that implies there's nothing positive in the way our ancestors lived is a bit off base, as I stated in the ridiculously wordy reply above. Maybe I took the comment in the wrong way if that's not what you meant.

I mean no harm, I'm just a history nerd.

go to www.marksdailyapple.com read the book "primal blueprint" it will address your issues & possibly give you the info you need. a real easy read

Ha ha ChairDr. I already mentioned that and was told they don't want to read it................

"They"? It seems like a fair number of people agreed with you, and a fair number didn't. It's pretty evident that you're passionate about your views, and there's nothing wrong with that. Some have different views, and I think that's OK too.

Yes, there were several people that said they didn't want to read it, so without calling each person out, I generalized and said They.

Yes, i am very passionate about my views and the more I learn the more passionate I become to the point I had gotten accepted in Washington to go to school to become a naturopathic doctor, but that fell through.

I am looking at applying to Naturopathic programs here in the St Louis area to still become a Naturopathic Doctor supporting self healing through whole nutrition.

Not having read the Primal thing I have a question...

Do you exercise much? Does this plan include a significant amount of exercise?

I get from reading this thread that it suggests we weren't meant to eat grains. I'm thinking that we also weren't meant to ride in cars or sit on our butts watching TV either, or sit at desk jobs all the live long day. Send an email instead of walking to deliver a message.
Since our ancestors lived a totally different life than we do now - walking/running EVERWHERE - having to quite literally, physically work for their food - eating this way supported a completely different lifestyle.

In order for your lifestyle to line up with this eating plan, you would need to exercise to this equivalent or somewhere close.... wouldn't you?

Curious to know if exercise is called out in this plan...

yes. if you are a gym junkie, his theories wil be as hard to swallow as the eating fat thing. I had to re read it, & ask my trainers advise (he follows it to) I actually walked over 10 miles this week. it is a nice departure from killing myself everyday

if you were hunted by T rex, you wouldnt make it past 25 either. knowledge is power. read it with an open mind. wether you follow it or not is up to you. It is actually pretty cool theory. BTW GO Phillies!

LOl, I liked everything you said in this statement except for the end............Go Cards!!!

bump

seriously? I humbly request that next time you just post a link, instead of posting a 7800 word essay.

this is bad netiquette

Oh come on guys...... really?

Carbs are not bad!

The reason why you can lose a lot of weight quickly when you get off the carbs is because you go into ketosis. Seriously guys, carbs are not bad, eating too many carbs are bad, but so is eating too much protein, or too many fats. If you want to learn more about a ketogenic diet, then you can google it. You'll understand why your doctor and his wife have suddenly lost a bunch of weight. But this isn't a diet, ketogenic diets are a lifestyle, fine if you're willing to commit, but completely temporary if you aren't.

I love carbs but my body hates them lol , I wish I could eat the 262 grams of carbs that MFP suggests but if I did that then I wouldn't be losing ...I would be gaining and feeling bad. Some can tolerate higher carbs than others and then some can't go over a certain amount of carbs daily , it just depends on the person.

Blood type A's can deal with carbs better then O blood types. I wonder which one you are.

All carbs are not created equal. Get yourself a nutrient density food list. As long as your energy levels don't crash, reducing your carb intake is fine (just don't reduce it to low)

I adjust the amount of Carbs, Protein and Fat I suggest to my clients. If your want more lean muscle mass then no more than 30 grams of protein per setting.

That is not necesaaarily true. i am Type A+ and my body does not handle carbs well at all. I do better with lots of protein and fat with carbs coming from veggies and a bit of fruit.

I don't trust books about nutrition written by 'health and fitness' professionals (it says so on the cover of the book), no offence at all to fitness professionals but sometimes you need to recognise your limitations and leave people's specialities to them. Sure I would give basic fitness advice such as 'it would be good for your health if you increased your exercise, perhaps you could try walking? swimming? resistance training? and I have no problem with fitness professionals providing the basic level of nutrition advice that they have been trained in. I would however consider it a giant breach of ethics to give hundreds of people a stringent fitness plan just because I believe in it...

Of course people will always be free to make up their own minds about things but I would be careful. As you have said, it is a theory 'pretty cool theory' and I just hope you don't pay for it with your health later in life.

It's a cool theory because it makes perfect sense if you actually sit and think about the time line of when the government started touting the low fat / low calorie is the way to go all the while heart disease, diabetes, high cholesterol, etc started happening more and more frequently.

Here is another article to read that I have posted several times that does in hand with Mark Sisson's theories..........

edited: per your request SHboss...............

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html?pagewanted=print

My thanks to you my dear! That's much better!

Wow. You guys are SO knowledgeable. THANK YOU ALL!

I have read every word, with great interest, on all points of view. I think we can all agree that:

1. Processed food is not good for the body.

2. Stay away from sugar, candy, sodas, and "simple" carbs that are manufactured.

3. Vegetables, meats, fish, and complex carbs, ALL in moderation, is key.

4. Exercise.

5. Drink water.

I have been so diligent with the above since Sunday. I feel 100% better, already.

I got my labs back from my doctor and everything looks great. He checked my thyroid, my hormone levels, et al. I am so persnikety...and Type A..I know!

Okay, so now that I know all cylinders are functioning properly, I have to make sure to keep the engine fed..with superior fuel.

I know much of this is hit-or-miss, looking for the correct formula for each individual.

Thank you all!

yes
yes
yes
yes
and yes

very good my dear, and gratz on everything working for you!

if you were hunted by T rex, you wouldnt make it past 25 either. knowledge is power. read it with an open mind. wether you follow it or not is up to you. It is actually pretty cool theory. BTW GO Phillies!

I'll have to take a look. I'm thinking from the sounds of it is like the PaleZone Eating habits of the CrossFit generation.