5x5 -split or full body?

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JenMc14
JenMc14 Posts: 2,389 Member
My workouts have been all of the place lately. I got advice to so full by 3 x a week, which I've done in the past and gotten bored quickly. (I was doing a higher rep progression, so 8 reps first week, working to 12.) I also wanted to look into possibly doing a lower rep program, so I was looking into a 5x5 style workout. I currently do an upper lower split of a few exercises, but today I did my upper as a 5x5 and really enjoyed it. So, advice on this: 5x5 3 days a week doing squats, bench, deadlift, bent over rows and over head press, or a 4 day split, 2 upper body, bench, bent over rows, overhead press as a 5x5 with some flys and reverse flys as 2 sets of 10 and 2 days of lower body, squats and deadlifts as 5x5, maybe adding in a lower body Pilates workout. I just want something more structured, as I currently stick to the big lifts, but sort of add in whatever here and there as I feel like it.

Replies

  • pullem
    pullem Posts: 87 Member
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    What are your lifting goals?? To gain muscle size or increase strength as the two different programmes you have described are for different goals - 5x5 programme is for strength building and 2 x 10 rep range is for gaining muscle mass and strength gains are slower

    This may answer some of your questions

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/850719-strength-training-the-basics
  • JenMc14
    JenMc14 Posts: 2,389 Member
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    I know rep ranges for strength v hypertrophy. I do not want to do higher reps as the core of my program right now. I was only putting in the flys at 10 reps because of the dumbbells I have access to. At the moment, I cannot go up in weight there. Right now, I'm not necessarily looking to gain size or strength. I did a very dirty, treat fueled "bulk" around the holidays, and I'm actually looking to low the weight/fat that I gained. I can tell a difference in my arms and lega, but I know that most of my gain was fat. I'm eating at a deficit, so I have no delusions that I'll put on any muscle right now or really gain too much strength. I am looking to up my lifts, but that will be a down the line goal once I get my body fat back under control. So my goal right now is primarily fat loss while preserving the muscle mass I have. Once I get back down to 117ish (I'm 126 right now), I'll see how I feel and either continue cutting or or sit at maintenance and focus onl lifting for awhile. I'm fairly dedicated t trying 5x5 out right now, I really am just young to determine if I stick with a split or go full body. The higher rep program I described is something I did in the past and am not looking to repeat right now.
  • pullem
    pullem Posts: 87 Member
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    Sorry I mis-understood your initial question.
    If you want to do stronglifts 5x5 then it really doesn’t matter if you do full body or upper and lower split, as you have said you want to cut and maintain lbm, full body would usually be recommended but that is really personal choice. I have included some pro’s and con’s below to help you decide what is best for you :smile:

    In general full body is better for beginners and those looking for an added ‘cardio’ effect when lifting

    Full Body
    Pros
    You will be able to build a well balanced body by hitting all muscle groups in one workout
    If you normally workout 3x per week and you happen to miss a workout, not a big deal as you have already worked all your muscle groups with just one workout.
    You’ll maximize calorie burn and fat loss
    Cons
    It’s hard to hit a given muscle group very intensely, especially legs because the intensity can be too tough to handle along with the lengthy recovery time after a workout.
    Can lead to overtraining
    Intensity of full body workouts multiple times per week can be tough to sustain

    Body Split
    Pros
    Superior for bodyshaping
    Lifting weights should never be easy, but if you like lifting heavy, it’s more manageable if you are only focusing on 2-3 muscle groups at a time
    Easy to switch up workouts
    Cons
    Less overall calorie burn
    Muscle and strength imbalances, if your workout routine is not structured properly, it’s pretty easy to overdevelop certain muscle groups at the expense of others
    Hard to miss / skip workouts

    As a side note: You said you are eating at a deficit and you goal is to lose body fat while maintain lbm. While muscle size and strength would still be gained when doing 5x5, it is not the optimal routine when on a deficit because the low reps focus solely on strength, usually when looking for a more defined physique, it is achieved with moderate reps and weight and increased cardio. However if you have used this method during your bulk then you can cut using the same methodology as you did to build, with the same intensity and less volume, so maybe cut down to 3x5
  • danimalkeys
    danimalkeys Posts: 982 Member
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    One comment on the flyes with dbs- you don't want to do these heavy anyway, so the rep range you have now is fine. They put your body in a position where there is no bone supporting the weight. Personally I wouldn't do them at all because the potential for injury outweighs the slight benefit you'll get. There are better ways to target your pecs. Paused bench press where you pause the bar on your chest (don't give up tension, hold it there) for a 2 second count. DB bench with palms facing to get more ROM at the bottom of the lift. Cambered bar bench. etc etc.
  • Gunsentry
    Gunsentry Posts: 121 Member
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    Your ideal candidate for intermediate program: Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 as it is very configurable and will achieve the goals you have described.

    http://www.jimwendler.com/

    I will be moving to this program once I complete my last 6 week cycle of MadCow.
  • Loftearmen
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    Sorry I mis-understood your initial question.
    If you want to do stronglifts 5x5 then it really doesn’t matter if you do full body or upper and lower split, as you have said you want to cut and maintain lbm, full body would usually be recommended but that is really personal choice. I have included some pro’s and con’s below to help you decide what is best for you :smile:

    In general full body is better for beginners and those looking for an added ‘cardio’ effect when lifting

    Full Body
    Pros
    You will be able to build a well balanced body by hitting all muscle groups in one workout
    If you normally workout 3x per week and you happen to miss a workout, not a big deal as you have already worked all your muscle groups with just one workout.
    You’ll maximize calorie burn and fat loss
    Cons
    It’s hard to hit a given muscle group very intensely, especially legs because the intensity can be too tough to handle along with the lengthy recovery time after a workout.
    Can lead to overtraining
    Intensity of full body workouts multiple times per week can be tough to sustain

    Body Split
    Pros
    Superior for bodyshaping
    Lifting weights should never be easy, but if you like lifting heavy, it’s more manageable if you are only focusing on 2-3 muscle groups at a time
    Easy to switch up workouts
    Cons
    Less overall calorie burn
    Muscle and strength imbalances, if your workout routine is not structured properly, it’s pretty easy to overdevelop certain muscle groups at the expense of others
    Hard to miss / skip workouts

    As a side note: You said you are eating at a deficit and you goal is to lose body fat while maintain lbm. While muscle size and strength would still be gained when doing 5x5, it is not the optimal routine when on a deficit because the low reps focus solely on strength, usually when looking for a more defined physique, it is achieved with moderate reps and weight and increased cardio. However if you have used this method during your bulk then you can cut using the same methodology as you did to build, with the same intensity and less volume, so maybe cut down to 3x5

    Low rep ranges can still build/maintain muscle mass. I am a powerlifter who trains with low reps 75% of the time (1-3 reps per set) and my lean body mass is 250lbs+. The volume of training is what will determine how much muscle you build. Note prilepin's table. Say you do 3 sets of 8 reps of a given exercise, you would be limited to around 75% of your 1rm because of the higher reps so you would have completed a total of 24 reps at 75% of your 1rm. If you do 5x5 you should be able to work with around 80% of your 1rm, thus leaving you with 25 reps at 80% of your 1rm; assuming that your 1rm for a given lift is 150lbs that is 2,700lbs vs 3,000lbs. The moral of the story is 5x5 is great for developing strength as well as building muscle mass.
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
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    The one you're most likely to stick with long term is the best choice. You seem to be jumping around a bit, you can get strong with either style. Pick one and stay with it.
  • moustache_flavored_lube
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    I switched to full body last year, and made far better gains than the previous year. (there were some other factors that helped this)

    The main reason I think the full body workout 3X per week is superior is because in order to fit your workouts in you end up focusing on the lifts that really matter (squat, deadlift, bench, pullups) Doing more of these lifts more often has a much greater impact on your body than 50 minutes of arms and shoulders.

    As you get more advanced it is difficult to make gains without really blasting a muscle group so you can no longer fit in a full body workout in a single session.
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
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    As you get more advanced it is difficult to make gains without really blasting a muscle group so you can no longer fit in a full body workout in a single session.

    Actually a lot of it has to do with recovery time, and the fact that big lifts aren't as effective at building musculature as accessory work (they're better at improving strength). When you're need your strength ceiling you need to grow to lift more.
  • moustache_flavored_lube
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    This is a good summary from Bodybuilding.com

    Full Body Routines vs. Splits

    The question often arises, especially from beginners, about what type of routine to use. Your buddy told you to use a full body routine, but the muscle mags suggest a 5-day "bodybuilder" split. You don't want to start off on the wrong foot, but there is so much information out there that sorting through what to do can be difficult.

    This is some of my opinion on the subject, and maybe it'll help a few people out.


    Full Body Routines:

    In my opinion, this is the place for a beginner to start. I have many years of lifting experience, and have pretty much always used some form of bodybuilding split routine. However, if I had it to do over again, I would have begun with a good full-body routine, built around the compound lifts, done 3 times per week. When you are a beginner you don't generally have the muscular strength to work intensely enough, or with enough volume, to require as much recovery time as someone who is stronger or more experienced. If you are a young beginner, on top of that, you have very good recovery abilities due to high hormone levels. So, because you are recovered relatively quickly after each workout, you want to stimulate each muscle group more often to induce strength and growth.

    Another reason to start with a full body program is that this gives you the opportunity to learn and practice the basic lifts: squats, deadlifts, bench press, overhead press, barbell rows, etc. Whether your goal is bodybuilding, strength athlete, sports, or just remaining fit, these really ought to form the basis of any routine. No matter what path you choose to "branch out" on later, these core lifts will serve you well.


    2-Day Split Routines:

    So the next question becomes: when should I think about split routines? In very simple terms, the answer is: when full body routines become too much. Usually, as you get stronger, it becomes very difficult to maintain enough energy to do squats, deadlifts, bench press, etc. all on the same day. You may also find that you want to add in a few isolation exercises to bring up your weak areas, or you may want to begin focusing more on each core lift. Another issue is recovery; as you get stronger, you are able to work out more intensely, and that means longer recovery times. So at that point, it makes sense to "split" things up by only doing a part of your previous full routine on any given day.

    A logical place to make your first split is into an Upper / Lower type routine. This will have you doing your upper body work like bench press, rows, overhead pressing on 1 day, and your lower body work like squats on another day. Another way to go would be a "push/pull" type split where you do all your pulling exercises (rows, deads) on one day and your pushing exercises (squats, overhead press, bench) on another day. Exactly how you do it is up to you, but the point is to divide the workload per session. This will give you more time (and volume) per body part, and also give you a bit more recovery before you work that muscle again. Most people will typically cycle through a 2-day split like these twice per week. So instead of every muscle being stimulated 3 times per week with the full body, now it's twice per week with the 2-day split.


    3+ Day Splits:

    3, 4, 5 (or more!) day splits come in when you again feel the need to divide your workload to match your recovery abilities, or increase the amount of work you want to do on specific muscles or lifts. Generally, these type of splits are mostly bodybuilding related, but even strength athletes may chose to split so they can work on speed lifts one day, strength work another, etc.

    At this point (speaking to bodybuilding) many lifters will only hit each muscle group once per week. This has the advantage of letting you really hammer a muscle group with a lot of weight and volume, and then give it plenty of time to recover while you're bringing the pain to the next group. Your full body effort is broken down into segments that are manageable from a workload, energy, and recovery standpoint.

    If you are an "experienced" (older) lifter with decreased recovery abilities (we all ain't as young as we used to be), this type of split often is useful for staying healthy due to the increased recovery time per body part. The kids might not think it's important, but your tendons might.

    There are so many variations of splits that I won't even attempt to detail all the possibilities. If you follow the advice in this post, by the time you need a multiple day split, you'll know your body, your goals, and have a pretty good idea of what you want to do.


    Final Thoughts:

    I believe it's a logical notion to start with a full body routine, and begin splitting only when you feel the need to increase your recovery or increase your volume. If you stick with the concept that you're trying to hit a muscle as often as you are able while still recovering adequately, and let that be your guide, you'll do okay.

    Hopefully, this gives some food for thought to help you decide what type of routine you should use. Ultimately, however, it's worth saying that you can do fine with any well-designed program even if you begin with a split routine right from the beginning.
  • pullem
    pullem Posts: 87 Member
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    Low rep ranges can still build/maintain muscle mass. I am a powerlifter who trains with low reps 75% of the time (1-3 reps per set) and my lean body mass is 250lbs+. The volume of training is what will determine how much muscle you build. Note prilepin's table. Say you do 3 sets of 8 reps of a given exercise, you would be limited to around 75% of your 1rm because of the higher reps so you would have completed a total of 24 reps at 75% of your 1rm. If you do 5x5 you should be able to work with around 80% of your 1rm, thus leaving you with 25 reps at 80% of your 1rm; assuming that your 1rm for a given lift is 150lbs that is 2,700lbs vs 3,000lbs. The moral of the story is 5x5 is great for developing strength as well as building muscle mass.

    As a powerlifter I'm guessing your goal wasn't to cut body fat% and that you weren't on a deficit either, which is what the OP is trying to do. Lower volume training is perfectly adequte during this period. Muscle mass cannot be gained and strengths gains are minimal while eating at a deficit and there is no way anyone should be trying to lifting 80% of their 1rpm during a cut IMHO.
  • Loftearmen
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    Low rep ranges can still build/maintain muscle mass. I am a powerlifter who trains with low reps 75% of the time (1-3 reps per set) and my lean body mass is 250lbs+. The volume of training is what will determine how much muscle you build. Note prilepin's table. Say you do 3 sets of 8 reps of a given exercise, you would be limited to around 75% of your 1rm because of the higher reps so you would have completed a total of 24 reps at 75% of your 1rm. If you do 5x5 you should be able to work with around 80% of your 1rm, thus leaving you with 25 reps at 80% of your 1rm; assuming that your 1rm for a given lift is 150lbs that is 2,700lbs vs 3,000lbs. The moral of the story is 5x5 is great for developing strength as well as building muscle mass.

    As a powerlifter I'm guessing your goal wasn't to cut body fat% and that you weren't on a deficit either, which is what the OP is trying to do. Lower volume training is perfectly adequte during this period. Muscle mass cannot be gained and strengths gains are minimal while eating at a deficit and there is no way anyone should be trying to lifting 80% of their 1rpm during a cut IMHO.

    Notice on my post where it says lost 33lbs? I'm obviously on a cut and it is important to lift above 80% 1rm while on a cut to maintain strength levels. The only way to increase strength on a cut is to increase neurological efficiency which is done my training with dynamic effort or by lifting above 90% 1rm.
  • jcasebolt84
    jcasebolt84 Posts: 22 Member
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    If you aren't really looking to gain size or strength right now then just do a program that you enjoy! Right now i'm a push/pull split. I do push on mon and thurs using a 5x5 scheme for bench, squat, and OHSP. Then I do pull on Tues and Fri using 5x5 for deads, rows. Then I throw in some smaller accesory exercises just for fun. Do what is going to keep you interested and focused.
  • pullem
    pullem Posts: 87 Member
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    The moral of the story is 5x5 is great for developing strength as well as building muscle mass.

    As a powerlifter I'm guessing your goal wasn't to cut body fat%....which is what the OP is trying to do.
    Muscle mass cannot be gained and strengths gains are minimal while eating at a deficit....

    Notice on my post where it says lost 33lbs? I'm obviously on a cut and it is important to lift above 80% 1rm while on a cut to maintain strength levels. The only way to increase strength on a cut is to increase neurological efficiency which is done my training with dynamic effort or by lifting above 90% 1rm.

    5x5 is great for developing strength and you may see minimal size gains too, agreed, but muscle mass gains will not be seen whilst eating at a deficit.

    Your post does not state you lost 33lbs, your ticker does which is not an indication of what you are currently eating so sorry it was not obvious you were on a cut...mine shows I've lost 19Kgs but I'm currently on a bulk.

    The OP is not trying to increase size or strength but drop bodyfat% which in turn is not correlated to weight loss.

    I'm very suprised you are powerlifting whilst on a deficit but each to their own and I'm glad you have been able to improve you strength whilst on a deficit but as you stated strength has a lot more to do with just muscle mass, it's also the CNS's ability to recruit motor units...But there is no way to get round the fact that building muscle is an anabolic process i.e. building more complex structures from simpler ones. Your body will always try and maintain homeostasis so at any given point, your body will be in either of two states: an anabolic state or a catabolic state. So trying to build muscle whilst on a caloric deficit is at best a totally inefficient process. When on a deficit and you lose weight, you will lose muscle and fat through catabolic pathways i.e. breaking down complex structures into simpler ones, the goal is to minimise the muscle lost and therefore the best way to maintain muscle mass is to use ANY lifting programme in which you have seen good gains but at a reduced volume to prevent burn out.
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
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    The OP is not trying to increase size or strength but drop bodyfat% which in turn is not correlated to weight loss.
    What? I'm sorry but there's definitely a correlation between body fat % and weight. I get the point you're trying to make, but to say they aren't related is just wrong. If you want to drop body fat, you don't bulk, you cut weight.
    I'm very suprised you are powerlifting whilst on a deficit
    There are weight classes in powerlifting, most powerlifters other than the super heavyweights have to deal with cutting weight at some point, they just have a bad rap for not being as strict about it as other weight class competitors (though there are some REALLY shredded folks who compete).


    5x5 is great for developing strength and you may see minimal size gains too, agreed, but muscle mass gains will not be seen whilst eating at a deficit.

    Your post does not state you lost 33lbs, your ticker does which is not an indication of what you are currently eating so sorry it was not obvious you were on a cut...mine shows I've lost 19Kgs but I'm currently on a bulk.
    So trying to build muscle whilst on a caloric deficit is at best a totally inefficient process.
    As a beginner lifter which it appears the OP is, he should see some small gains in muscle mass right off the bat, even on a cut. You're obviously right after that point. The thing is, your lifting style shouldn't really change that tremendously between cut and bulk cycles. I think the biggest difference is the amount of volume you do on a bulk is higher since you have a higher capacity for work when you're bulking. Thing is, especially as you get to be more advanced, your recovery time is the limiting factor in your major lifts, not your work capacity. Between a bulk and a cut your meat and potatoes staple lifts should really stay about the same. You're still going to squat and deadlift and press. Accessory work should change though: namely, do more when you're bulking. This is more advanced oriented since beginners do have the capacity to hit their main lifts a lot more often, but I happen to think the more focused accessory work does a better job at building musculature anyway, so beginners can/should do that too.

    What am I getting at with all of this?

    When you're cutting:
    Have your basic lifting plan for your main lifts. That could be 5x5, 5/3/1, Starting Strength, w/e it doesn't matter just be consistent, at a volume you can handle on your diet.
    Incorporate any prehab/rehab work you need to (so if you have week legs maybe some high rep lunges or some such, etc).
    Include light accessory work if you have the time/capacity for it.

    When you're bulking:
    Have your basic lifting plan. The same one you had when you were cutting.
    Incorporate any prehab/rehab work you need to.
    Include accessory work and go hard on it.

    This can work and apply to ANY lifting paradigm you choose, and is a particularly useful frame of reference if you look at smart programming that is geared around bulk/cut cycles. There's an argument to be made for volume on staple lifts between a bulk and a cut, but that depends on how advanced a lifter you are and your capacity for recovery. As a beginner lifter, just do the program as laid out, it'll get hard enough to be challenging quickly, and you're at light weights so recovery time shouldn't be an issue.