"lifting fast"...why? Stronglifts5x5
CoderGal
Posts: 6,800 Member
Stronglifts 5x5:
"lifting fast actually requires more muscle then lifting slow does, and this is a scientific fact. But it is also a scientific fact that lifting fast will get you a lot stronger then lifting slow does"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP2g3Sj3qSw&feature=youtu.be
Wondering where this comment comes from? Would like to read some stuff on it.
"lifting fast actually requires more muscle then lifting slow does, and this is a scientific fact. But it is also a scientific fact that lifting fast will get you a lot stronger then lifting slow does"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP2g3Sj3qSw&feature=youtu.beWondering where this comment comes from? Would like to read some stuff on it.
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Replies
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Mehdi tends to insert his own "science" when it comes to things like this. I think that his reasoning is that it requires a lot more force to go fast than slow making it so your muscles have to push harder.
But yea you have to take things he says with a grain of salt.0 -
I think what is being implied is that your "trying" to move the weight as fast as you can. With a heavy weight, the weight will not move fast. Your trying to apply maximum force.0
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Stronglifts 5x5:
How fast can you lift when you're pushing close to your max? That is a slow lift.
I don't believe lifting fast will get more muscles involved. It's possible that lifting fast will teach you how to use momentum better which can increase your lift. I guess that could be strength.
Muscular strength has a lot to do wit time under tension. This means slower lifting. IF you lift a weight in 2 seconds, that's 2 seconds under tension, lift it in 4 that is 4 seconds under tension.
This can get confusing because it's easy to get tripped up between what is required for strength compared to what is required for size.
this ^^^^0 -
It seemed kind of questionable to state it as 'fact' and my mind went down several streets
1. F=MA. More accelleration = greater force
2. try lifting x pounds with your arm out straight for the slowest lift of life...something fatigues...something is happening there heavy or not...0 -
I don't believe lifting fast will get more muscles involved. It's possible that lifting fast will teach you how to use momentum better which can increase your lift. I guess that could be strength.
This sounds about right to me.
If I do Overhead Press using my knees/bodyweight to help push the barbell up, I can do a lot more weight than with stable legs. With stable legs, I could probably only do 55lbs but at least I would know that's 100% muscles working without the aid of bodyweight or quickspeed. I guess using speed to lift is like running downhill... It feels easier, but works the muscles less & for shorter period of time.
You will gain strength both ways, but going slow ensures it is your muscles getting better/having more endurance & not your bodyweight/speed compensating. Me using my bodyweight in OHP basically helps me cheat to get 50% of the way up, but when I hold the bar back down to my chest, I go slow so at least the way down is all my muscles working.0 -
Does he mean pushing the weight fast or short rest times between lifts?
I guess I'm going to have to watch the video. I was taught to always do controlled motions, and the eccentric should take 2x the time of the concentric motion. My gut reaction is fast=sloppy=bad.0 -
He basically says don't throw the weight around, do controlled movements on the way down, go fast on the way up because it's 'proven fact'....but it kind of comes out of nowhere, don't try to slow things down in other words is how I took it. If you open the link and just fast forward a little bit you'll get his idea of his 'fast'.Does he mean pushing the weight fast or short rest times between lifts?
I guess I'm going to have to watch the video. I was taught to always do controlled motions, and the eccentric should take 2x the time of the concentric motion. My gut reaction is fast=sloppy=bad.
I kind of agree with his 'low squats' it makes sense to me. And I'm unsure on the breathing since I'm not pro at all and have no idea if there is a 'best' but at least he gives reasoning for it...and then random fast is fact thing...So far the book gives alright info but those things are kind of throwing me off0 -
Does he mean pushing the weight fast or short rest times between lifts?
I guess I'm going to have to watch the video. I was taught to always do controlled motions, and the eccentric should take 2x the time of the concentric motion. My gut reaction is fast=sloppy=bad.
I agree with this. You want to be sure you are using your muscles with good form and not just using momentum, with sloppy form, to lift the weight. Some specific lifts rely on momentum, but they still require good form and a thorough understanding of what you are doing..0 -
I don't know if what he says is a 'proven fact' but I noticed that comment and incorporated its thinking into my workouts. Works for me! I lift the weight up as fast as I can in a controlled fashion, and then bring it back down slowly. I think its a good way to go. Even if you get some momentum from the lift up, you are still going slowly on the way down and that takes a lot of effort to be that controlled.0
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The other thing about the you're cheating thought process is maybe you're cheating some muscles, but the momentum you're using is coming from yourself...so if something is benefiting it is your own muscles.I don't know if what he says is a 'proven fact' but I noticed that comment and incorporated its thinking into my workouts. Works for me! I lift the weight up as fast as I can in a controlled fashion, and then bring it back down slowly. I think its a good way to go. Even if you get some momentum from the lift up, you are still going slowly on the way down and that takes a lot of effort to be that controlled.0 -
Stronglifts 5x5:
"lifting fast actually requires more muscle then lifting slow does, and this is a scientific fact. But it is also a scientific fact that lifting fast will get you a lot stronger then lifting slow does"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP2g3Sj3qSw&feature=youtu.be
Wondering where this comment comes from? Would like to read some stuff on it.
am i the only one confused by the use of the word "but"? he acts like he's making statements in opposition, but doesn't the 2nd statement support the 1st? makes me wonder what he meant to say.
IMO, lifting faster is more explosive and generates more power, but inertia takes over the top half of the lift. also the risk of injury increases exponentially, depending on what lift we're talking about. Mostly tho, it depends on your goals. if you define "strong" as the ability to get a certain amount of weight over your head, then fast is the way to go. someone that can lift the same weight into position in a slower fashion is actually "stronger", because inertia is taken out. And if you're trying to gain mass, slower has worked much much better for me than faster. If I'm trying to set a PR, faster is what I do.
Ultimately, it's a big Who Cares?0 -
It has to do with fast and slow twitch muscle fibers.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2150579This study indicates that it is possible to achieve a fibre type transformation with high-intensity training.0 -
The other thing about the you're cheating thought process is maybe you're cheating some muscles, but the momentum you're using is coming from yourself...so if something is benefiting it is your own muscles.
Yeah I think I would know if I was merely using momentum to lift heavy weights. I know that's not true because I tend to keep good form. It's not really possible to swing the weights or use a lot of ancillary muscles if your form is strict.
I also am not lifting so fast that momentum becomes an option. I felt like I could read between the lines on his statement there to mean that you want to do the initial push/lift fast but within reason. Obviously the guy is also big on maintaining form so that's not something that should be violated for the sake of speed.0 -
It has to do with fast and slow twitch muscle fibers.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2150579This study indicates that it is possible to achieve a fibre type transformation with high-intensity training.
I don't think that's right- lifting heavy weights is pretty much always high intensity and anaerobic, favoring fast twitch fibers. The only time there's some difference is when you use isometric holds to recruit in more muscle fibers. Slow twitch muscles are the endurance, repetitive pounding ones favored for things like running.
ETA: To get more specific about the study, there's slow twitch and then two different types of fast twitch. Higher intensity running recruits in the fast twitch type IIa fibers, but it takes maximum intensity sprinting, like HIIT, to recruit the type IIb fibers, which is why HIIT is considered to be more assimilated with lifting than cardio.0 -
Thanks this is essentially what I was looking for. Interesting enough, the study doesn't keep track of calorie intake. Wonder if any of those people were at a deficit.0 -
He's basically confusing strength and power. I'm not quite sure he understands that they are two different things.0
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But like some pointed out isn't strength relative. Even in his video he points out that doing a bench from touching your chest to locking your elbows requires more strength then the guy lifting heavier weight and doing what he considers 'half reps' since he grabbed him and the guy couldn't put up the weight he said he could...which brings up the question doesn't more weight require more strength...I guess that's mostly based on opinion. Just wanted to know which opinion the video was going for.He's basically confusing strength and power. I'm not quite sure he understands that they are two different things.0 -
F=ma. If you consider strength as the amount of force that can be applied, it takes twice as much 'strength' to accelerate a weight twice as much. Applying more force uses more energy, and the only way I can think of for this to occur (assuming form stays constant) is by using more muscle fibers in the lift. Using more muscles to apply more force should be equivalent to lifting more weight. Without getting pedantic that would be my guess at what strength is supposed to mean.
However once you hit the point where you can just barely complete 5 reps, it doesn't seem like 'speed' is an option anymore, you just lift as hard as you can to finish the set. However I guess this is another way to make the training progressive... even if you're stuck at 100 lbs for example, just barely being able to complete the 5th rep versus finishing with a bit of speed might make it more like lifting 103 lbs instead, and help you progress toward the next increment at 105. ::shrug::
As far as going slower, it might burn out the muscles being used, but I would guess it doesn't use more muscle. That is, I can bench press 20 pounds really slowly to get my muscles to exhaustion, but it's not going to increase my max 1RM by doing so. (Or is it?)0 -
/shrug Some of the greatest powerlifters have advocated explosive lifts in training. This includes both KK and Ed Coan. Then again, Coan also never once maxed out in the gym, and always hit his PRs at meets, which most younger powerlifters will swear is blasphemy.
Most of this 'slow movement' stuff appears to be the product of the bodybuilder movement, honestly. The only time you should be grinding anything is when you are near your max weight that you can lift, imo.0 -
The book I just read, New Rules for Lifting for Women, says strength and power are two different muscle functions. If I understand it correctly, lifting fast improves power and slow improves strength.0
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My comment had nothing to do with full reps vs half reps. Strength is moving weight a certain distance. Power is moving weight a certain distance in a certain amount of time. If two people can bench press 200 pounds max, they are equally strong, but if one person can lift faster, that person is more powerful, not necessarily stronger.
But like some pointed out isn't strength relative. Even in his video he points out that doing a bench from touching your chest to locking your elbows requires more strength then the guy lifting heavier weight and doing what he considers 'half reps' since he grabbed him and the guy couldn't put up the weight he said he could...which brings up the question doesn't more weight require more strength...I guess that's mostly based on opinion. Just wanted to know which opinion the video was going for.He's basically confusing strength and power. I'm not quite sure he understands that they are two different things.0 -
Mehdi isn't the only one who advocates dynamic lifting. It's a big part of Westside's training.
My understanding is that you should go as fast on the concentric movement as you can with control, and go slowly on the eccentric movement.0 -
Moving the weights fast helps train your CNS to recruit more muscle fibers at the same time. The more fibers you have firing at once, the more you can lift. This is standard powerlifter training. You train for explosiveness. Yes, a 1RM isn't going to be explosive but your body is still trying to fire all those cells at once.
You are not bouncing and throwing the weights around, it's still done in controlled motion with good form. Slow on the way down, as hard as you can on the way up. From the 1st warmup to the last heavy rep, this is what I have always tried to do.
All the slow lifting protocols teach you is to, well, be slow. You can still have bad form on a slow lift. Good form is all about repetition. Lifting the weight the same way every time no matter if it's a warmup or a 1RM.0 -
This! It's the intent to move the weight fast that recruits more muscle fibers rather than the actual speed of the weight.Moving the weights fast helps train your CNS to recruit more muscle fibers at the same time. The more fibers you have firing at once, the more you can lift. This is standard powerlifter training. You train for explosiveness. Yes, a 1RM isn't going to be explosive but your body is still trying to fire all those cells at once.
You are not bouncing and throwing the weights around, it's still done in controlled motion with good form. Slow on the way down, as hard as you can on the way up. From the 1st warmup to the last heavy rep, this is what I have always tried to do.
All the slow lifting protocols teach you is to, well, be slow. You can still have bad form on a slow lift. Good form is all about repetition. Lifting the weight the same way every time no matter if it's a warmup or a 1RM.
Ditto the second paragraph.0 -
Moving the weights fast helps train your CNS to recruit more muscle fibers at the same time. The more fibers you have firing at once, the more you can lift. This is standard powerlifter training. You train for explosiveness. Yes, a 1RM isn't going to be explosive but your body is still trying to fire all those cells at once.
You are not bouncing and throwing the weights around, it's still done in controlled motion with good form. Slow on the way down, as hard as you can on the way up. From the 1st warmup to the last heavy rep, this is what I have always tried to do.
All the slow lifting protocols teach you is to, well, be slow. You can still have bad form on a slow lift. Good form is all about repetition. Lifting the weight the same way every time no matter if it's a warmup or a 1RM.
Very well said.
The closer you get to your 1RM the slower your lift is going to be but on my warm up sets I always drive upwards with as much force as possible.0 -
I agree with your thought process but I remember when I was young and dumb and paranoid and holding out my little dumbbells from side to side trying to get rid of my little kid cellulite lol. Anyhow...let's ignore how stupid I was being for a second and notice that the more I did it the longer I could do it...so the muscle is yes getting fatigued on less weight, but there was progress, and the heaviest lift in my day was my purse lol. Bad example but I am going to guess that something is getting 'stronger' somewhere along the lines.F=ma. If you consider strength as the amount of force that can be applied, it takes twice as much 'strength' to accelerate a weight twice as much. Applying more force uses more energy, and the only way I can think of for this to occur (assuming form stays constant) is by using more muscle fibers in the lift. Using more muscles to apply more force should be equivalent to lifting more weight. Without getting pedantic that would be my guess at what strength is supposed to mean.
However once you hit the point where you can just barely complete 5 reps, it doesn't seem like 'speed' is an option anymore, you just lift as hard as you can to finish the set. However I guess this is another way to make the training progressive... even if you're stuck at 100 lbs for example, just barely being able to complete the 5th rep versus finishing with a bit of speed might make it more like lifting 103 lbs instead, and help you progress toward the next increment at 105. ::shrug::
As far as going slower, it might burn out the muscles being used, but I would guess it doesn't use more muscle. That is, I can bench press 20 pounds really slowly to get my muscles to exhaustion, but it's not going to increase my max 1RM by doing so. (Or is it?)0 -
Your endurance improved. Endurance and strength are different.0
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Definitions:
My comment had nothing to do with full reps vs half reps. Strength is moving weight a certain distance. Power is moving weight a certain distance in a certain amount of time. If two people can bench press 200 pounds max, they are equally strong, but if one person can lift faster, that person is more powerful, not necessarily stronger.
But like some pointed out isn't strength relative. Even in his video he points out that doing a bench from touching your chest to locking your elbows requires more strength then the guy lifting heavier weight and doing what he considers 'half reps' since he grabbed him and the guy couldn't put up the weight he said he could...which brings up the question doesn't more weight require more strength...I guess that's mostly based on opinion. Just wanted to know which opinion the video was going for.He's basically confusing strength and power. I'm not quite sure he understands that they are two different things.
Velocity = distance/time
Acceleration = Velocity/time
Force = Mass* Acceleration
Work = Force*distance
^strength maybe? Move a large mass slowly = moving a smaller mass over a longer distance (ie "full rep") = moving a smaller mass quickly.
Power = Work/time
^power. It wouldn't be weight over a distance...it's more to do about the length of time they can push back the same force, not weight. The longer you can do the same Work = more power.0 -
Just wanted to say thanks for the replies everyone. Apparently my biology/chemistry sucks. Never heard of twitch muscles etc before.Your endurance improved. Endurance and strength are different.
But if my endurance improved didn't something just get stronger :P0
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