Building muscle on a calorie deficit?
GiddyupTim
Posts: 2,819 Member
Okay, so last night I was watching the most recent episode of the Biggest Loser -- that's right, I admit it!
One particular contestant, who has lost 95 pounds over the 11 weeks of the season, has gained 19 pounds of muscle !
Now, on MFP, it is axiomatic that 'you cannot build any muscle on a deficit.'
So, how do you explain the fact that this contestant was adding muscle while she was in such serious deficit that she was losing more than five pounds a week?
I expect no one can explain this contestant's results. They are idiosyncratic. But, perhaps, we should not be so certain in our pronouncements, with this particular axiom at least.
One particular contestant, who has lost 95 pounds over the 11 weeks of the season, has gained 19 pounds of muscle !
Now, on MFP, it is axiomatic that 'you cannot build any muscle on a deficit.'
So, how do you explain the fact that this contestant was adding muscle while she was in such serious deficit that she was losing more than five pounds a week?
I expect no one can explain this contestant's results. They are idiosyncratic. But, perhaps, we should not be so certain in our pronouncements, with this particular axiom at least.
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Replies
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bump....I was watching and thought the same thing...0
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dont watch that show but of course you can build muscle on a "deficit"0
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From what I understand, you can build muscle if you're new to lifting which I'm pretty sure the people on Biggest Loser are.0
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According to another website, there has been studies done were experienced lifters were able to gain muscle on a calorie deficit diet.0
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dont watch that show but of course you can build muscle on a "deficit"
Why not?....its T.V.....entertainment0 -
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Hmmmm. Mighty suspicious about the information in this thread. How would you BUILD muscle in a deficit, exactly? How would that process work?
Very large people might be some sort of exception. But, forget that for a moment, and just think about the process.
The Doc on the show said its a first....maybe genetics0 -
From what I understand, you can build muscle if you're new to lifting which I'm pretty sure the people on Biggest Loser are.
Muscle it is built with water and fat inside of it, people on the biggest loser lack muscle and have a lot of fat. Since they didn't workout they're seeing a spike in muscle which we call "newbie gains" with the fat they currently have, they have nothing but fuel to stimulate muscle growth while at the same time having nothing but fat to burn off too. I will say it's near impossible if you're at a smaller %bf and in a deficit.0 -
dont watch that show but of course you can build muscle on a "deficit"
Why not?....its T.V.....entertainment
i hate that show, frankly. It tells people you have to work out 8 hours a day and get screamed at by a crazy woman to lose weight when really all you have to do is eat less. Plus i dont like watching people cry.0 -
from my understanding. people that are new to exercising are able to build muscle on a caloric deficit. However if you have been activly lifting, then you would have to be at a caloric surplus to get results.
again im gonna say that is my undertstanding. feel free to correct me if ive mistaken my information0 -
dont watch that show but of course you can build muscle on a "deficit"
Why not?....its T.V.....entertainment
i hate that show, frankly. It tells people you have to work out 8 hours a day and get screamed at by a crazy woman to lose weight when really all you have to do is eat less. Plus i dont like watching people cry.
DVR helps me FF through all the BS....but they have great workouts...thats what I watch it for0 -
Hmmmm. Mighty suspicious about the information in this thread. How would you BUILD muscle in a deficit, exactly? How would that process work?
Very large people might be some sort of exception. But, forget that for a moment, and just think about the process.
The Doc on the show said its a first....maybe genetics
I think he meant a first for it to be that MUCH muscle. But I am inclined to believe measurement error. There's another MFP thread rolling around on this topic:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/923268-95lbs-lost-and-19lbs-of-muscle-gained-in-11-weeks
They are talking about it a bit on bodybuilding.com as well:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=152485743&pagenumber=
Lyle McDonald on bodyrecomposition.com talks a bit about the few instances where one can gain muscle on a deficit (morbidly obese beginners, formerly untrained folks). Since it would be near impossible for a woman who was eating way above her TDEE (or attempting to bulk) to gain anywhere near that amount of muscle in that amount of time, I'm guessing whatever measurement methods they used were just way off. I could believe maybe 2-3 lbs worth of muscle gain, assuming it's been more time than the show actually pretends it's been.
In general I do not believe you can gain muscle while eating at a deficit, and definitely not for very long. Especially not if you are losing fat. If your body thinks it's in a condition where it should consume fat, there is no way it is going to waste energy adding muscle mass. Strength gains? Sure. Muscles for visible? Sure. None of those equal lbs of muscle gained though.0 -
From what I understand, you can build muscle if you're new to lifting which I'm pretty sure the people on Biggest Loser are.
Muscle it is built with water and fat inside of it, people on the biggest loser lack muscle and have a lot of fat. Since they didn't workout they're seeing a spike in muscle which we call "newbie gains" with the fat they currently have, they have nothing but fuel to stimulate muscle growth while at the same time having nothing but fat to burn off too. I will say it's near impossible if you're at a smaller %bf and in a deficit.
Wait, wait, wait. a "spike in muscle"? "Newbie gains"?
I get that newbies gain in strength. But, this is new muscle tissue.
I had always understood newbie gains in strength to be due to increased coordination, practice and nervous system adaptation -- not that people who just start lifting are able to pack on muscle faster.
It is kinda doubly interesting in that, this contestant would have been moving around a large body mass for years. You would think that would develop strength.0 -
Hmmmm. Mighty suspicious about the information in this thread. How would you BUILD muscle in a deficit, exactly? How would that process work?
Very large people might be some sort of exception. But, forget that for a moment, and just think about the process.
The Doc on the show said its a first....maybe genetics
I think he meant a first for it to be that MUCH muscle. But I am inclined to believe measurement error. There's another MFP thread rolling around on this topic:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/923268-95lbs-lost-and-19lbs-of-muscle-gained-in-11-weeks
They are talking about it a bit on bodybuilding.com as well:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=152485743&pagenumber=
Lyle McDonald on bodyrecomposition.com talks a bit about the few instances where one can gain muscle on a deficit (morbidly obese beginners, formerly untrained folks). Since it would be near impossible for a woman who was eating way above her TDEE (or attempting to bulk) to gain anywhere near that amount of muscle in that amount of time, I'm guessing whatever measurement methods they used were just way off. I could believe maybe 2-3 lbs worth of muscle gain, assuming it's been more time than the show actually pretends it's been.
In general I do not believe you can gain muscle while eating at a deficit, and definitely not for very long. Especially not if you are losing fat. If your body thinks it's in a condition where it should consume fat, there is no way it is going to waste energy adding muscle mass. Strength gains? Sure. Muscles for visible? Sure. None of those equal lbs of muscle gained though.
Shoot. i searched and did not find that topic.
i kinda suspect it was a measuring error too. i have watched a fair number of adolescent boys lift weight, while eating a surplus, and never seen anything like a 19 pound gain in 11 weeks.
But, the physician did say he checked the results twice.0 -
From what I understand, you can build muscle if you're new to lifting which I'm pretty sure the people on Biggest Loser are.
Muscle it is built with water and fat inside of it, people on the biggest loser lack muscle and have a lot of fat. Since they didn't workout they're seeing a spike in muscle which we call "newbie gains" with the fat they currently have, they have nothing but fuel to stimulate muscle growth while at the same time having nothing but fat to burn off too. I will say it's near impossible if you're at a smaller %bf and in a deficit.
Wait, wait, wait. a "spike in muscle"? "Newbie gains"?
I get that newbies gain in strength. But, this is new muscle tissue.
I had always understood newbie gains in strength to be due to increased coordination, practice and nervous system adaptation -- not that people who just start lifting are able to pack on muscle faster.
It is kinda doubly interesting in that, this contestant would have been moving around a large body mass for years. You would think that would develop strength.
To answer your question about growing muscle in a deficit then yes its possible. To answer the question on the 19lbs of muscle gained in 11 weeks then no it's not possible. The average male filled with testosterone couldn't get that in a year let alone to think a woman low in testosterone would get it in 11weeks.0 -
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Building muscle on a calorie deficit diet is very possible, and gets easier the more overweight someone is.
Just for an example say your body needs 2000kcal to function, and you eat 1000kcal, your body will kick in the extra 1000kcal.
Your fat storage is exactly that, a storage of energy for when your body needs it. So, as long as your stressing you're muscles enough to adapt, and you're getting the nutrients required for muscle hypertrophy, your body's fat storage will decrease while your muscle mass increases.
Because your body burns mostly fat at rest, you'll be able hold onto most of that muscle even when consuming less calories than you burn.0 -
Of course you can build muscle on a calorie deficit!!!
You do exercise or weight training and the muscle tears slightly and the body repairs itself, thereby increasing the muscle. You need to make sure your getting sufficient protein and other nutrients so the body can properly repair itself and build muscle.
If your on a deficit it's alot harder to make significant muscle gains as some of the energy deficit comes from fat, some from sugars and some from muscle. However if your doing significant exercise/weight training then the gains will be greater than the losses.
In fact if you don't do weight training or at least cardio then your body will loose lean muscle mass as well as fat on a calorie deficit.
Weight training and cardio are both good while dieting anyone who tells you otherwise... yeah alot of bad info out there.
Obviously this is not the most efficient way of gaining large muscle bulk - use cutting/bulking cycles for that but when your just loosing weight it is still definitely possible.0 -
Somebody please share the magic formula with me, because it very clearly is NOT heavy lifting three days a week and eating 1g of protein per pound of LBM or 0.7g per pound of total body weight every day in chicken, salmon, egg whites, walnuts, almonds, milk, and yogurt every day (in addition to oatmeal, orange juice, blueberries, broccoli, onions, lettuce, and V8) with some help from a multivitamin, whey protein and casein supplements and eight hours of sleep a night. Heck, I'd be content to just *maintain* all of my LBM while I lost 90 more pounds of fat. :sad:
Anyhow...
The Biggest Loser claim is even more extraordinary than just building muscle on a deficit. She lost 95 pounds in 11 weeks. (3500*95) / (11 * 7) = 4318. She had to run a deficit of 4318 calories A DAY on average to achieve that kind of weight loss.
I'll repeat that: they are claiming she built a quarter pound of muscle per day (as an 11-week average) running a deficit of over 4,000 calories a day.0 -
Somebody please share the magic formula with me, because it very clearly is NOT heavy lifting three days a week and eating 1g of protein per pound of LBM or 0.7g per pound of total body weight every day in chicken, salmon, egg whites, walnuts, almonds, milk, and yogurt every day (in addition to oatmeal, orange juice, blueberries, broccoli, onions, lettuce, and V8) with some help from a multivitamin, whey protein and casein supplements and eight hours of sleep a night. Heck, I'd be content to just *maintain* all of my LBM while I lost 90 more pounds of fat. :sad:
Seems like your eating ok but it's not an easy task. I burn probably about 5-7k calories a week in cardio. I should probably add in more weights, looking at gyms atm. I'm only just maintaining lean body mass. Gone from 95kg, with 64kg lean body mass to 86kg with 63kg lean body mass. I know I've gained muscle in my legs from alot of cycling but probably lost it elsewhere.Anyhow...
The Biggest Loser claim is even more extraordinary than just building muscle on a deficit. She lost 95 pounds in 11 weeks. (3500*95) / (11 * 7) = 4318. She had to run a deficit of 4318 calories A DAY on average to achieve that kind of weight loss.
I'll repeat that: they are claiming she built a quarter pound of muscle per day (as an 11-week average) running a deficit of over 4,000 calories a day.
Extreme figures like this seem a little hard to believe but maybe it's possible.0 -
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I have been 217lb, and when i started training, i gained alot of muscle the first year while loosing over 50lb, but NOW, i really struggle to loose lb while still building muscle.
So i had a PT check out my work outs and how my muscle and fat percentage is, and he actually told me that ive now come to the stage of almost choosing: keep the muscle i have and just do maintanance on that and focus on cardio to shed the fat, OR eat more (! woch i am really scared of doing, so i log the days i think ive eaten way over here to check.. difficult after a year of controlling every little bit. but if i must, i must..) and build more muscle til im happy with the gain of them, and then shred the fat of. if i kept the strict diet with increasing weightlifting and cardio, my body would stand still for a couple of weeks more, before i would loose anything, and then possably muscle...
but, theres alot of different sayings out there, so i will see how it goes with the eating more-training more thing goes. Maybe ill have the body i want for summer. muscles on legs, *kitten* and back, and a supertoned fit body. (my goal is actually to have that for christmas, but doesnt hurt to reach it before!)
Maybe it is very diffrent from men to women, but i feel like my guys / gym friends eat like crazy and never gain, and i still have to watch every single calorie?0 -
Of course you can build muscle on a calorie deficit!!!
You do exercise or weight training and the muscle tears slightly and the body repairs itself, thereby increasing the muscle. You need to make sure your getting sufficient protein and other nutrients so the body can properly repair itself and build muscle.
If your on a deficit it's alot harder to make significant muscle gains as some of the energy deficit comes from fat, some from sugars and some from muscle. However if your doing significant exercise/weight training then the gains will be greater than the losses.
In fact if you don't do weight training or at least cardio then your body will loose lean muscle mass as well as fat on a calorie deficit.
Weight training and cardio are both good while dieting anyone who tells you otherwise... yeah alot of bad info out there.
Obviously this is not the most efficient way of gaining large muscle bulk - use cutting/bulking cycles for that but when your just loosing weight it is still definitely possible.
You and physiology aren't even casual aquintances are ya?:huh:0 -
You and physiology aren't even casual aquintances are ya?:huh:
Have a look at this:
http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/
There is a scientific study for you. Not saying that it will happen for everyone and definitely more unlikely the more weight you loose but to categorically say that you can't both gain muscle and loose weight is ill informed at best.0 -
You and physiology aren't even casual aquintances are ya?:huh:
Have a look at this:
http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/
There is a scientific study for you. Not saying that it will happen for everyone and definitely more unlikely the more weight you loose but to categorically say that you can't both gain muscle and loose weight is ill informed at best.
So let's break down what you previously posted:
"You do exercise or weight training and the muscle tears slightly and the body repairs itself, thereby increasing the muscle. You need to make sure your getting sufficient protein and other nutrients so the body can properly repair itself and build muscle."
Incorrect. Just because you get some damage that needs to be repaired, that doesn't nessesarily follow that you get growth, as in hypertrophy, from that in calorie deficit.
"If your on a deficit it's alot harder to make significant muscle gains as some of the energy deficit comes from fat, some from sugars and some from muscle. However if your doing significant exercise/weight training then the gains will be greater than the losses."
Only if you have significant fat reserves. And then for only a limited time. http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html
"In fact if you don't do weight training or at least cardio then your body will loose lean muscle mass as well as fat on a calorie deficit. "
Cardio does nothing to retain lean mass and, in the case of calorie deficit can be detrimental to retaining mass.
None of this requires studies to substantiate. It is basic physiology. I would highly suggest you devote a little time to self study. Some of the pieces you speak of are almost ok. But some are you drawing conclusions that are the exception not the rule.
Additionaly, I am fully aware of the conditions, however limited, one can gain muscle in a deficit. This ain't my first rodeo. Also, let's keep our discussions right here on the public forums and not on PMs, as you sent. I have nothing to hide. Do you?
Maybe you want to setlle in and get the feel of the place and people's experience level before you go charging around like a bull in a china shop. If you get my drift.0 -
None of this requires studies to substantiate. It is basic physiology. I would highly suggest you devote a little time to self study. Some of the pieces you speak of are almost ok. But some are you drawing conclusions that are the exception not the rule.
Additionaly, I am fully aware of the conditions, however limited, one can gain muscle in a deficit.
I'm definitely not trying to claim to be the best source of knowledge, which is why I referenced the study. I was just trying to point out that alot of people are indeed at the start of their weight loss journey not having done any weight lifting previously and for those people loosing weight and gaining muscle mass is possible.
I'll leave it at that, trying to keep this as friendly as possible.0 -
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A simple example, you loose 2kg of fat, gain 1kg of muscle, net loss 1kg.You lose weight. You don't loose weight. Ok. Goddamn it, it pisses me off that people can't keep this straight. The American education system is complete crap.
Alot more likely for someone with high body fat and little muscle.0 -
i hate that show, frankly. It tells people you have to work out 8 hours a day and get screamed at by a crazy woman to lose weight when really all you have to do is eat less. Plus i dont like watching people cry.
LOL, you would so hate the army.0 -
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