What do we really know about cave men (and women)?
mahanaibu
Posts: 505 Member
I'm not looking to put down the Paleo (or any other) diet. Anything that works for my fellow health seekers is great. I just want to raise a question about evolution because I see so many posts that say we evolved to eat this or that.
My question is, how do we know that what was optimal for survival of cave people is optimal for us? Cave people didn't live very long; the key to life, for them, was living to the point where they could have children and raise those children to the point of being able to take care of themselves. Very long life might even have been counter-productive. Sure, the elders could provide some wisdom from things they had experienced that would help younger people, but having too many elders would harm the clan or tribe because they mostly consumed resources without contributing them.
So it could be that the cave diet was optimal for a fairly short but productive life, rather than the very long llife that we now seek. They didn't worry too much about eating to avoid heart disease or cancer because they didn't tend to live long enough to experience those diseases.
Like I said, that's not to criticize the Paleo or any other diet; it doesn't mean they don't work. But the reasons they work might not have anything to do with assumptions about how we're "naturally" meant to eat. Animals evolve pretty quickly. Not too long after the cave days, Northern Europeans evolved to digest lactose without problems. When men became farmers, a certain set of wolves evolved to eat grains as well as meat--they were the wolves who wanted easy pickings from men's garbage, and the ones who could digest the grains that tended to be in the garbage were the ones who would survive and pass on their genes. What we think of as natural might not actually be optimal.
My question is, how do we know that what was optimal for survival of cave people is optimal for us? Cave people didn't live very long; the key to life, for them, was living to the point where they could have children and raise those children to the point of being able to take care of themselves. Very long life might even have been counter-productive. Sure, the elders could provide some wisdom from things they had experienced that would help younger people, but having too many elders would harm the clan or tribe because they mostly consumed resources without contributing them.
So it could be that the cave diet was optimal for a fairly short but productive life, rather than the very long llife that we now seek. They didn't worry too much about eating to avoid heart disease or cancer because they didn't tend to live long enough to experience those diseases.
Like I said, that's not to criticize the Paleo or any other diet; it doesn't mean they don't work. But the reasons they work might not have anything to do with assumptions about how we're "naturally" meant to eat. Animals evolve pretty quickly. Not too long after the cave days, Northern Europeans evolved to digest lactose without problems. When men became farmers, a certain set of wolves evolved to eat grains as well as meat--they were the wolves who wanted easy pickings from men's garbage, and the ones who could digest the grains that tended to be in the garbage were the ones who would survive and pass on their genes. What we think of as natural might not actually be optimal.
0
Replies
-
What we know about cavemen is that they would have loved to eat candy bars, bacon, bread and birthday cake. That's for sure.0
-
Also, they really, really liked caves.0
-
...and they didn't have to worry about filing their taxes. :grumble:0
-
And if The Flintstones have taught us anything, they used wisecracking animals as household (cavehold?) gadgets.0
-
...and they didn't have to worry about filing their taxes. :grumble:
You had to remind me, didn't you? Slinking off to my cave now.0 -
...that they were hot?0
-
I completely agree with you- you've stated it very well. I find it shocking that people would adopt a paleo (or anything like that) diet where they add MORE meat, and think that they're being healthier. There are direct, heavily studied links between red meat consumption and many cancers, heart disease, early death, and a host of other issues. There was a long-term study published in late 2012 that said each and every serving of red meat you eat reduces your life expectancy- period. basically, there is no "healthy" amount of red meat- even in moderation, it is very bad for you. Grass-fed and organic are bad too, even though they're better than the conventional antibiotic-and-hormone-filled crap.
I don't think poultry is very good for you either; I'm just using the red meat example because it is the most well-researched. Organic, free-range chicken might be okay sometimes I guess, but standard chicken in the U.S. is disgusting and horrible for you- eww hormones! talk about a cancer-causing food!
The fact that caveman diets don't let you eat some nuts, lentils, beans, and healthy grains is so backwards. Makes no sense from a nutritionist perspective. [I'm in med school with a heavy interest in nutrition, so that's my background]
in case you're wondering- I eat a pescetarian diet. It's "nearly"-vegetarian but I do eat some fish. I try eat sustainable, low-mercury fish as much as possible...but I do love tuna and shrimp occasionally, which are awful for the environment. sad. I'm not perfect!0 -
I completely agree with you- you've stated it very well. I find it shocking that people would adopt a paleo (or anything like that) diet where they add MORE meat, and think that they're being healthier. There are direct, heavily studied links between red meat consumption and many cancers, heart disease, early death, and a host of other issues. There was a long-term study published in late 2012 that said each and every serving of red meat you eat reduces your life expectancy- period. basically, there is no "healthy" amount of red meat- even in moderation, it is very bad for you. Grass-fed and organic are bad too, even though they're better than the conventional antibiotic-and-hormone-filled crap.
I don't think poultry is very good for you either; I'm just using the red meat example because it is the most well-researched. Organic, free-range chicken might be okay sometimes I guess, but standard chicken in the U.S. is disgusting and horrible for you- eww hormones! talk about a cancer-causing food!
The fact that caveman diets don't let you eat some nuts, lentils, beans, and healthy grains is so backwards. Makes no sense from a nutritionist perspective. [I'm in med school with a heavy interest in nutrition, so that's my background]
in case you're wondering- I eat a pescetarian diet. It's "nearly"-vegetarian but I do eat some fish. I try eat sustainable, low-mercury fish as much as possible...but I do love tuna and shrimp occasionally, which are awful for the environment. sad. I'm not perfect!
here's something you don't see every day... a vegetarian posting about how awful meat is.
:noway:0 -
0 -
Everyone dies. Some people will snort wheatgrass and mainline legumes before they die of lymphoma at 35 and other people will eat steak and cigarettes 3 meals a day and live to be 100. Diet and exercise can help us to have more comfortable bodies and prevent some diseases but most of our health is beyond our control. Eat noms, die happy.0
-
I'm pretty sure getting laid was alot easier for cavemen too.
They probably didn't have to do nearly as much wooing as men do nowadays.0 -
I'm pretty sure getting laid was alot easier for cavemen too.
They probably didn't have to do nearly as much wooing as men do nowadays.
0 -
Instead of hitting on women at the club they hit them over the head with a club, which I can say from experience, is a LOT more effective.0
-
they didn't shave very often.
0 -
People live so much longer now, but what is the quality of life for many elderly people? What's so great about living to be 90+ if you lose you mind, wear diapers and need constant care?0
-
I'm pretty sure getting laid was alot easier for cavemen too.
They probably didn't have to do nearly as much wooing as men do nowadays.
Truth. Or manscaping before hand.0 -
People live so much longer now, but what is the quality of life for many elderly people? What's so great about living to be 90+ if you lose you mind, wear diapers and need constant care?
You get 90+ years of not eating birthday cake or enjoying beer.0 -
0
-
People live so much longer now, but what is the quality of life for many elderly people? What's so great about living to be 90+ if you lose you mind, wear diapers and need constant care?
You get 90+ years of not eating birthday cake or enjoying beer.
0 -
Instead of hitting on women at the club they hit them over the head with a club, which I can say from experience, is a LOT more effective.
But we also have roofies these days. Much less effort than swinging a club.
But you still have to buy a drink. :grumble:0 -
Stop making sense! That's not allowed here.0 -
0 -
AH BROSCIENCE RUN!
But seriously... I watched my wife's grandmother die at the age of 93... She was gone the last 10-20 years of her life, locked in a place to die away from family. She's cuban, ate mostly healthy grains and legumes her whole life and being a woman from cuba, stayed away from high fat meats (that was something only men partook in.) I respect the heck out of her and her life, but despite her long life her last 20 years weren't any more fulfilling despite eating a diet that by most standards today was quite healthy. (Olive Oil, Healthy Grains, Fruits, Legumes, Vegetables, low fat diet all around, low sugar)
So eat what you want, if you live to 100+ great, hopefully by that point you'll remember the people around you and be able to do something about it instead of slowly dying in a bed somewhere.0 -
Stop making sense! That's not allowed here.
Sorry! I totally forgot the first rule of MFP forums. :laugh:0 -
My question is, how do we know that what was optimal for survival of cave people is optimal for us? Cave people didn't live very long; the key to life, for them, was living to the point where they could have children and raise those children to the point of being able to take care of themselves. Very long life might even have been counter-productive. Sure, the elders could provide some wisdom from things they had experienced that would help younger people, but having too many elders would harm the clan or tribe because they mostly consumed resources without contributing them.
Much of the reasoning is that our bodies were designed (over tens of thousands of years) to eat a more whole, raw food diet including lots of vegetables and some meat (depending on where your ancestors are from) and are not yet adapted to eating processed foods, many of which are nutrient deficient. It is also true that if you look at the ages of ancient peoples and take away causes of death from accidents/injuries, being attacked by an animal, etc. many groups of people lived much longer than is commonly thought by the general public. I do understand that the human body has developed some adaptations to the newer foods we are eating, but there are better nutrition choices than processed or starchy foods. My take on eating paleo/primal has been to incorporate more whole, natural foods into my diet, and eating as nutrient-dense foods as possible, I see this as a sensible and logical way of eating.
In reference to incorporating more meat into a person's diet as being unhealthy, it is true that adding red meats (specifically processed red meats, as many of the studies include processed red meats alongside items such as leaner cuts of steak as one conglomerate entitled "red meat") can be unhealthy, but my experience on the primal diet hasn't been laden with absurd amounts of red, or any meat, really. And it's not really "cave" people it's referring to, it's the paleolithic peoples, who may, or may not, have actually lived in caves lol.0 -
My diet kinda accidentally evolved into a primal diet, by trial and error, finding out what foods worked best for me and which ones didn't. I hadn't really even heard of Paleo/primal before, but then when I looked at ita few months ago, I realized I was following a lot of the guidelines, .i.e no grains or starchy vegs, no processed sugar, lots of healthy fats from nuts, avocados, etc. I don't drink milk, but I do eat cheese, and I do eat peanuts, but not other beans. Lots of fresh veggies. I started out with the South Beach plan and tweaked it to fit my needs and likes. Ended up at 50%Fat/30%Pro/20%Carb and I feel great on it. I have arthritis and an autoimmune condition, and eating this way has reduced my inflammation and pain levels tremendously.
I don't follow it because our ancestors ate that way, I follow it because my body likes it. It isn't a fad for me, but a way of life that has bettered my quality of life and health. I'm not 100% perfect on it, and I do eat some processed protein bars and shakes, and occasionally indulge in off-plan foods, but don't make a habit of it. Moderation is the key.0 -
...and they didn't have to worry about filing their taxes. :grumble:
This is enough to make me want to move to a cave!0 -
I really think the whole Paleo/Primal labels are just more marketing ideas to encourage eating healthy whole foods.
I don't follow any plan other than my own but my nutrition does have some similarities to Paleo/Primal. I am, however, happy to find no named plan that completely fits the way I eat. Like DebbieLyn, I eat the way I do because my body likes it. The quality of my life has significantly improved eating the way I do & my health is much better, too.0 -
we totally eat Paleo for b'fast in this house...Fruity Pebbles and Cocoa Pebbles, only the best will do for my family :flowerforyou:0
-
Also, they really, really liked caves.
Yip yip yip yip yip yip, uh huh, uh huh!0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.2K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 426 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.7K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions