SQUATS?? I need your advice?

BUMP!
this is false. knees not going over toes is pure myth. for proof look at every person ever who squats for comp. knees always go past toes.

From what I've researched, unless you already have knee problems, this is pretty much true.

Where your knee ends up in relation to your toe depends on your squat: Front Squats will have the knee past the toe. Olympic squats (often called high-bar squat) will have the knee over the toe. Low-bar squats usually are the closest knee-toe position.

http://www.acsm.org/docs/current-comments/safetysquat.pdf

http://www.acsm.org/docs/current-comments/safetysquat.pdf

As mentioned in the documentation, it states "in general". It DOESN'T say that knee going beyond toes is disallowed.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Check other natural movements too. When climbing the stairs (unless one is purposely trying not to do it) the knee invariably goes past the toes.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

BUMP!
this is false. knees not going over toes is pure myth. for proof look at every person ever who squats for comp. knees always go past toes.

From what I've researched, unless you already have knee problems, this is pretty much true.

Where your knee ends up in relation to your toe depends on your squat: Front Squats will have the knee past the toe. Olympic squats (often called high-bar squat) will have the knee over the toe. Low-bar squats usually are the closest knee-toe position.

http://www.acsm.org/docs/current-comments/safetysquat.pdf

Out of curiosity, how do you explain why EVERY SINGLE PRO EVER who competes in powerlifting or Olympic lifting has their knees go past their toes. In the case of Oly lifting sometimes WAY past their toes. And they are lifting obscene amounts of weight. If there was knee danger wouldn't this cause problems???

it makes no sense. look at the pic of proper squat for above you. notice the position of their backs... none are anywhere near verticle..

In the picture with the front squat, the torso is completely straight and vertical. It's the same with a body weight squat.

I already said for a back squat you need to lean over to keep the weight over your heels, but even in that case the torso should be completely stable and not move independently from the legs.

You move down with your butt, not with your torso.

I want to see this miracle of biomechanics where someone can drop their hips back, keep an upright torso, and not fall over backwards. Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

Lets put this to the test, I'll find some bodyweight squat tutorials and see how upright the torsos are. lets see here...

Bent Torso: http://youtu.be/p3g4wAsu0R4
Bent Torso: http://youtu.be/R1v152b72lo
Bent Torso: http://youtu.be/zqj1qjIA6E0
Bent Torso: http://youtu.be/lDrXqXRPVTg
Bent Torso: http://youtu.be/-AeGXjAW02A

P.S.. There is still bent torso for front squat.

Yeah. All of those people keep their torsos vertical. The second guy did a really good job demonstrating what happens when you don't.

Chest out, shoulders back. Head travels in straight line down, no movement front to back or side to side.

You keep your torso stable by maintaining the lumbar curve and engaging your core. You do bend at the hips, but not in your upper body.

Maybe you're just having an issue with my terminology? I'm only communicating in the way I was taught, I guess some people use different terms? It's entirely possible that I was taught incorrect terms, but the form I was taught is essentially the same as the above videos.

I recant my statement when I used the word "never", as absolutes in research (much less life in general) are rare. When I talk of squats I am not referring to Olympic style squatting techniques. Of course if you are lifting heavy, that places an undue amount of compressive force on the hips, lower back and the knees, which may require knee flexion beyond 90 degrees (excellent point on knee injury vs. low back injury trade off). However, I was speaking of a simple squat without weights or with light free weights. In that instant, I would not recommend for the knees to go pass the toes to reduce the likelihood of knee injury, and because there isn't a substantial amount of weight that the hips and lower back have to bear.

The ACSM article is speaking generally, and I posted the article because I was speaking in general terms, mainly as a reference for beginners.

BUMP!
this is false. knees not going over toes is pure myth. for proof look at every person ever who squats for comp. knees always go past toes.

From what I've researched, unless you already have knee problems, this is pretty much true.

Where your knee ends up in relation to your toe depends on your squat: Front Squats will have the knee past the toe. Olympic squats (often called high-bar squat) will have the knee over the toe. Low-bar squats usually are the closest knee-toe position.

http://www.acsm.org/docs/current-comments/safetysquat.pdf

Out of curiosity, how do you explain why EVERY SINGLE PRO EVER who competes in powerlifting or Olympic lifting has their knees go past their toes. In the case of Oly lifting sometimes WAY past their toes. And they are lifting obscene amounts of weight. If there was knee danger wouldn't this cause problems???

Again, I recant using the word "never". Of course there is going to be knee danger when you are lifting an "obscene amounts of weight". Deep loaded knee flexion is required to do this type of lifting, and over time knee injury may occur.

http://saalnajjar.kau.edu.sa/Files/141/Researches/57285_28119.pdf

I recant my statement when I used the word "never", as absolutes in research (much less life in general) are rare. When I talk of squats I am not referring to Olympic style squatting techniques. Of course if you are lifting heavy, that places an undue amount of compressive force on the hips, lower back and the knees, which may require knee flexion beyond 90 degrees (excellent point on knee injury vs. low back injury trade off). However, I was speaking of a simple squat without weights or with light free weights. In that instant, I would not recommend for the knees to go pass the toes to reduce the likelihood of knee injury, and because there isn't a substantial amount of weight that the hips and lower back have to bear.

The ACSM article is speaking generally, and I posted the article because I was speaking in general terms, mainly as a reference for beginners.

I would agree with this. But I would also point out that the form for without weight is pretty much the same as with weight. If your knees are fine going past your toes with hundreds of pounds on your back, then they are more than fine with just bodyweight too..

I also point to the example of walking up stairs. Try and do it without knees going past your toes.

It's a natural movement. You want to know where the no knees past the toes thing came from? It's from most total beginners being sooo afraid of falling over backwards, that instead of squatting, they kneel. And yes, that does fry your knees. So it's a basic catch all to try and get them to understand a basic squat concept without getting too indepth on proper form. So that why you see it in beginners guides. But for anyone in the know, and from anyone who actually teaches proper squat form for people who lift, we know better.

edit: basically where i'm going with this is worry about proper technique first and foremost. The diagram pictured is the ideal way to do form for a normal stance squat, which vast majority of people would do. And if by doing it that way your knees go past your toes, then so be it. Don't stress. If they don't go past, then so be it. You get the idea.

I know what vertical means! Are we looking at the same videos or what!?

Those peoples chests and shoulders are CLEARLY perpendicular to the ground!

Unless you're doing a low bar back squat, the load in the movement is your chest, shoulders, arms and head. How would it be possible to keep the weight on your heels if your chest wasn't centered over your heels/midfoot, and how you could you center that weight over your heels/midfoot if your chest was pointed at the floor?

I....don't know what to say to you at this point. I think vert means something different than you think it means.

I know what vertical means! Are we looking at the same videos or what!?

Those peoples chests and shoulders are CLEARLY perpendicular to the ground!

Unless you're doing a low bar back squat, the load in the movement is your chest, shoulders, arms and head. How would it be possible to keep the weight on your heels if your chest wasn't centered over your heels/midfoot, and how you could you center that weight over your heels/midfoot if your chest was pointed at the floor?

I....don't know what to say to you at this point. I think vert means something different than you think it means.

o_o

Look at this line, it's vertical. |

If you take a person in good squat form, and draw a line from their head, through the load (chest, shoulders, upper back -the torso, right?) down to the heel/midfoot it will be a vertical line ( | ), not an angled line ( / ).

All of those people's chests are out, and their shoulders are back, head is looking forward. The same as upright, vertical, posture.

Sorry, man, I love my coaches. You're going to have to give me a better reason to say they're wrong than just, "Derp, I don't understand you so you must be wrong. You don't know what vertical means."

The problem here is either miscommunication or misunderstanding.

You clearly stated that "All of those people keep their torsos vertical. " when none of those people did.

So clearly you're either miscommunicating what you think 'vertical' means, or you are misunderstanding what a 'torso' is (the trunk of the body independent of head and limbs.)

A vertical torso would be a torso that is entirely straight up/down, perpendicular to the ground when standing. Even body-weight squats or front-bar-squats don't do that, the torso will not be perpendicular to the ground, the entire torso will lean forward around 10-15 degrees, sometimes more depending on individual anthropometry.

The instant one drops the hips back and starts the hip bend, the torso starts to lean and is no longer vertical.

Olympic/high-bar squats generally cause a vertical lean of about 35-40 degrees, and low-bar squats around 40-50 degrees, again depending on the person.

No squat - when at the lower position - has a 'vertical' torso. Those performing it properly will keep their torso straight, with a slight arch in the back, but the torso is most certainly not vertical.