Building muscle
ninerbuff
Posts: 49,021 Member
Quick to the point:
If you're not doing progressive overload training (which includes volume training) AND eating a calorie surplus, then it ain't happenin'.
The exceptions are an athlete returning to lifting after a long layoff, an obese/very overweight person new to lifting, a newbie who's never exercised before. Even then, the muscle gain is minimal.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
If you're not doing progressive overload training (which includes volume training) AND eating a calorie surplus, then it ain't happenin'.
The exceptions are an athlete returning to lifting after a long layoff, an obese/very overweight person new to lifting, a newbie who's never exercised before. Even then, the muscle gain is minimal.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0
Replies
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I just bought the New Rules of Lifting for Women. That's one of the thing they mention is to have a shake on your lifting days. It's going to be hard for me to do that. I'm not obese or very overweight. I logically know that. I'm about 5'8" and 191 lb. I'm going to look for a lower calorie protein shake. I'm sure they make them.0
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volume training -- define?0
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Sometimes people are at different levels. I am recovering from an ulnar induction nerve injury from laying carpet. I am fortunate to be able to swim every day. Some activity is better than none. When I felt I had to go "balls to the wall" I would quit.
Slow and steady wins the race. At least in my case.0 -
I just bought the New Rules of Lifting for Women. That's one of the thing they mention is to have a shake on your lifting days. It's going to be hard for me to do that. I'm not obese or very overweight. I logically know that. I'm about 5'8" and 191 lb. I'm going to look for a lower calorie protein shake. I'm sure they make them.
You don't need one. If you can get 100grams a day without a shake, then you don't need one.0 -
Who needs kettlebells. Al lyou need is a large weight plate (20KG) with handles, and if you want to make it heavier, simply goto a hardware store and get a thick unt and a bolt. Simply stack smaller plates to the centre of the larger plate using the nut and the bolt, I got two of them to do squats and dead lifts. No more annoying bars on the shoulder or rubbing against your knees.0
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Who needs kettlebells. Al lyou need is a large weight plate (20KG) with handles, and if you want to make it heavier, simply goto a hardware store and get a thick unt and a bolt. Simply stack smaller plates to the centre of the larger plate using the nut and the bolt, I got two of them to do squats and dead lifts. No more annoying bars on the shoulder or rubbing against your knees.
can you take a pic? I'm curious to what you mean?0 -
Who needs kettlebells. Al lyou need is a large weight plate (20KG) with handles, and if you want to make it heavier, simply goto a hardware store and get a thick unt and a bolt. Simply stack smaller plates to the centre of the larger plate using the nut and the bolt, I got two of them to do squats and dead lifts. No more annoying bars on the shoulder or rubbing against your knees.
can you take a pic? I'm curious to what you mean?
Me too! I'd love to see how you did it!0 -
Progressive overload along with high volume of sets with reps between 6-12.volume training -- define?
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Not the same as a squat though.Who needs kettlebells. Al lyou need is a large weight plate (20KG) with handles, and if you want to make it heavier, simply goto a hardware store and get a thick unt and a bolt. Simply stack smaller plates to the centre of the larger plate using the nut and the bolt, I got two of them to do squats and dead lifts. No more annoying bars on the shoulder or rubbing against your knees.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
The exceptions are an athlete returning to lifting after a long layoff, an obese/very overweight person new to lifting, a newbie who's never exercised before. Even then, the muscle gain is minimal.
Agreed with everything in the OP, but stressing this part. Because every time I hear about "newbie gains" it's like nails on a chalkboard. It's so slight and insignificant in the long run it's almost irrelevant. Yet newbie gains-newbie gains-newbie gains gets discussed ad nauseum on this site. Hell, by the time you learn what it is, you've probably already cashed in on your maximum benefit from it.0 -
Progressive overload along with high volume of sets with reps between 6-12.volume training -- define?
What?!?!? You mean I'm not gonna get HUGE doing Starting Strength and StrongLifts? But but but....that's the only acceptable workout plan in the MFPverse.
Maybe Mendler 5/3/1? Will Mendler get me hyooge mussels?0 -
The exceptions are an athlete returning to lifting after a long layoff, an obese/very overweight person new to lifting, a newbie who's never exercised before. Even then, the muscle gain is minimal.
Agreed with everything in the OP, but stressing this part. Because every time I hear about "newbie gains" it's like nails on a chalkboard. It's so slight and insignificant in the long run it's almost irrelevant. Yet newbie gains-newbie gains-newbie gains gets discussed ad nauseum on this site. Hell, by the time you learn what it is, you've probably already cashed in on your maximum benefit from it.
Agree with you and well said by both of you! So tired of people responding to others 'blah blah I have gained weight when I started exercising blah blah" that it's due to muscle gain.0 -
Sorry for the ignorant noob post in advance, but I'm obese and eating at a deficit to lose weight. It was recommended that I read NROLFW and begin a strength training program to build muscle. Should I just keep doing my cardio since building muscle requires a calorie surplus and I am nowhere near the point where I can do that. I do eat about 115g of protein/day according to the amount of lean body mass I calculated I have.0
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semi related question - I have been walking daily (3-5miles/day) for about 6 weeks now, and although I am losing inches in my hips & thighs, I'm increasing the size of my calves. This is b/c I'm building muscle in the calves, right? And as I get leaner, the calf measurements will decrease again, right?0
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Bumping to follow...
Although I'm not working towards a huge muscle gain, I am working towards a tight athletic looking body and still working towards my weight loss goal and bf% so I'm hoping that eating at a deficit while weight training will help me achieve both goals at the same time. When I've reached my weight goal, I plan to eat at maintenance while lifting to obtain and maintain my goals. Am I wrong to be doing it this way?0 -
Sorry for the ignorant noob post in advance, but I'm obese and eating at a deficit to lose weight. It was recommended that I read NROLFW and begin a strength training program to build muscle. Should I just keep doing my cardio since building muscle requires a calorie surplus and I am nowhere near the point where I can do that. I do eat about 115g of protein/day according to the amount of lean body mass I calculated I have.
You should be lifting even though you are on a deficit and cant build muscle. You can maintain the muscle you do have. It takes a long time to build muscle so dont just give up what you got.0 -
Sorry for the ignorant noob post in advance, but I'm obese and eating at a deficit to lose weight. It was recommended that I read NROLFW and begin a strength training program to build muscle. Should I just keep doing my cardio since building muscle requires a calorie surplus and I am nowhere near the point where I can do that. I do eat about 115g of protein/day according to the amount of lean body mass I calculated I have.
You should be lifting even though you are on a deficit and cant build muscle. You can maintain the muscle you do have. It takes a long time to build muscle so dont just give up what you got.
Good point, I never thought of it that way. I have heard it's VERY difficult to gain muscle, even as a guy.0 -
The exceptions are an athlete returning to lifting after a long layoff, an obese/very overweight person new to lifting, a newbie who's never exercised before. Even then, the muscle gain is minimal.
Agreed with everything in the OP, but stressing this part. Because every time I hear about "newbie gains" it's like nails on a chalkboard. It's so slight and insignificant in the long run it's almost irrelevant. Yet newbie gains-newbie gains-newbie gains gets discussed ad nauseum on this site. Hell, by the time you learn what it is, you've probably already cashed in on your maximum benefit from it.
I think you have to be careful to define your reference point. IMO, these discussions tend to be consistently skewed to the powerlifter/bodybuilder perspective.
I have seen plenty of people experience "newbie gains" of 5-10lbs, and increase their physical appearance of muscle size, all while maintaining sizeable calorie deficits.
All they going to plateau in their gains? Yes. Are they going to get as big as you? No.
However they can get as big and as strong as they ever want to be. And so I think it can be misleading to summarily dismiss these results as "irrelevant".
I understand that we all have our perceptions and reactions to what we perceive as annoying threads that pop up on the forums over and over, and that we choose different points of emphasis.
As anyone knows, I have more than a few myself.
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I am eating at a deficit and even though I theoretically cannot build muscle, I am building strength. This is evidenced by my continuing to increase the weight or reps in in my workouts. Also, I do not fit into the listed exceptions:
- An athlete returning to lifting after a long layoff. (I've been lifting for years.)
- An obese/very overweight person new to lifting. (I'm at about 20% body fat.)
- A newbie who's never exercised before. (Nope)
Since mid-January my body fat has dropped 10.1 lbs, and my lean mass has dropped 2.0 lbs, but my strength levels have increased, so I am happy. But I'm not a body-builder. I'm more concerned with strength than with muscle mass. If I could improve strength by 10% without any increase in mass I would be very happy because my power-to-weight ratio would be higher and I would be a more explosive athlete.0 -
Sorry for the ignorant noob post in advance, but I'm obese and eating at a deficit to lose weight. It was recommended that I read NROLFW and begin a strength training program to build muscle. Should I just keep doing my cardio since building muscle requires a calorie surplus and I am nowhere near the point where I can do that. I do eat about 115g of protein/day according to the amount of lean body mass I calculated I have.
There are physiologic dynamics (e.g. protein turnover) that occur with resistance training that make it a recommended part of a weight loss program regardless of any changes in lean mass.
The "build muscle mass to lose weight" is a very seductive cliche and so it is used indiscriminately. In fact, someone who is obese likely has a higher level of muscle mass than many non-obese people who lift weights. In fact, if someone loses 100lbs, it would be expected--probably even necessary--that they lose a notable amount of lean mass just because they don't need to support as large a body.
That being said, strength training plays an important role in weight loss, fitness, quality of life, and general health. I think it also provides a big increase in self-confidence and having a positive outlook which is also important to sustain a successful program. And then, it goes without saying, continued progressive resistance training is ESSENTIAL for making weight loss permanent.0 -
Sorry for the ignorant noob post in advance, but I'm obese and eating at a deficit to lose weight. It was recommended that I read NROLFW and begin a strength training program to build muscle. Should I just keep doing my cardio since building muscle requires a calorie surplus and I am nowhere near the point where I can do that. I do eat about 115g of protein/day according to the amount of lean body mass I calculated I have.
There are physiologic dynamics (e.g. protein turnover) that occur with resistance training that make it a recommended part of a weight loss program regardless of any changes in lean mass.
The "build muscle mass to lose weight" is a very seductive cliche and so it is used indiscriminately. In fact, someone who is obese likely has a higher level of muscle mass than many non-obese people who lift weights. In fact, if someone loses 100lbs, it would be expected--probably even necessary--that they lose a notable amount of lean mass just because they don't need to support as large a body.
That being said, strength training plays an important role in weight loss, fitness, quality of life, and general health. I think it also provides a big increase in self-confidence and having a positive outlook which is also important to sustain a successful program. And then, it goes without saying, continued progressive resistance training is ESSENTIAL for making weight loss permanent.
That's true about the amount! I've always said I would pefer to have to eat to put on weight but I think it's far easier to take weight off now that I'm learning more about it. I have about 120lbs of LBM... that would be AWESOME at goal weight of 145
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Following this post as I too am obese and have been doing strength/resistance workouts along with cardio. Also taking in high amounts of protein at meal times but still keeping a sizable caloric deficit. I'm concerned about losing LBM as a result of the deficit. Since my workouts are usually late in the evening, should I be eating anything post workout to help with muscle recovery?0
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I think you have to be careful to define your reference point. IMO, these discussions tend to be consistently skewed to the powerlifter/bodybuilder perspective.
I have seen plenty of people experience "newbie gains" of 5-10lbs, and increase their physical appearance of muscle size, all while maintaining sizeable calorie deficits.
All they going to plateau in their gains? Yes. Are they going to get as big as you? No.
However they can get as big and as strong as they ever want to be. And so I think it can be misleading to summarily dismiss these results as "irrelevant".
I understand that we all have our perceptions and reactions to what we perceive as annoying threads that pop up on the forums over and over, and that we choose different points of emphasis.
As anyone knows, I have more than a few myself.
I don't disagree with you. You're just zeroing in on my particular word choice. I'm not saying that gaining a small amount of muscle is irrelevant, per se. What I'm saying the amount of words wasted on this site on the relatively small and short lived phenomenon referred to as "newbie gains" is WAAAAAAY out of proportion to it's actual value0 -
Is it not common sense for people starting the muscle building process to measure progress by inch loss and throw the scales away? I also bought the weights for women book but i haven't started yet as i still have too much fat covering the muscles to see definition. However i just started kettle bell classes and doing 100 squats with my home kettle bell and for sure i know my legs and *kitten* r tighter nd not wobbling within 2 weeks!!!. Slow uphill process to sort out other areas but i still feel i need to keep up my cardio on lower calories to blast off a bit more fat before i am confident enough to up my calories and protien to the levels needed to build muscles up in the right way.0
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Sorry for the ignorant noob post in advance, but I'm obese and eating at a deficit to lose weight. It was recommended that I read NROLFW and begin a strength training program to build muscle. Should I just keep doing my cardio since building muscle requires a calorie surplus and I am nowhere near the point where I can do that. I do eat about 115g of protein/day according to the amount of lean body mass I calculated I have.
I struggled for awhile to understand this when I got started here too. The point is to keep the muscles you have and minimize the loss of them while you are losing weight. Strength training will help you do that.
Looking at all the pictures floating around comparing the size of 1 lb of muscle to 1 lb of fat really helped me. Since you can't build any appreciable additional muscle while losing weight, the goal is keep what you've got and maximize the loss of fat. This should make your body smaller at a higher weight than someone of similar weight/height/build who is dropping both fat and muscle.
Since I've yo-yo dieted much of my adult life, I can actually compare my former self at this weight and my former self at this size and see exactly that. In fact, despite my ticker, I am currently not sure what my goal weight is; I know it probably won't be as low as I thought it should be when I started. I'm buying clothes in a size 8 at 168 pounds. I last wore an 8 at 155 pounds and I got to 155 by a VLCD and cardio only. My body is very different this time around and the difference has been strength training and eating at a much smaller deficit than I ever tried before. My first thought was vanity-sizing in clothing - however, due to my obsessions over weight going back more than a decade I actually have my measurements, clothing size, and weight written down and it's really cool to go back and compare those and see how much my body has changed this round by trying something completely different.0 -
Sorry for the ignorant noob post in advance, but I'm obese and eating at a deficit to lose weight. It was recommended that I read NROLFW and begin a strength training program to build muscle. Should I just keep doing my cardio since building muscle requires a calorie surplus and I am nowhere near the point where I can do that. I do eat about 115g of protein/day according to the amount of lean body mass I calculated I have.
I struggled for awhile to understand this when I got started here too. The point is to keep the muscles you have and minimize the loss of them while you are losing weight. Strength training will help you do that.
Looking at all the pictures floating around comparing the size of 1 lb of muscle to 1 lb of fat really helped me. Since you can't build any appreciable additional muscle while losing weight, the goal is keep what you've got and maximize the loss of fat. This should make your body smaller at a higher weight than someone of similar weight/height/build who is dropping both fat and muscle.
Since I've yo-yo dieted much of my adult life, I can actually compare my former self at this weight and my former self at this size and see exactly that. In fact, despite my ticker, I am currently not sure what my goal weight is; I know it probably won't be as low as I thought it should be when I started. I'm buying clothes in a size 8 at 168 pounds. I last wore an 8 at 155 pounds and I got to 155 by a VLCD and cardio only. My body is very different this time around and the difference has been strength training and eating at a much smaller deficit than I ever tried before. My first thought was vanity-sizing in clothing - however, due to my obsessions over weight going back more than a decade I actually have my measurements, clothing size, and weight written down and it's really cool to go back and compare those and see how much my body has changed this round by trying something completely different.
Thank you! This is so thoughtfully explained I think I 'get it' but what I don't get is why would you lose muscle if you don't participate in strength training? just because your body doesn't require all that muscle to move it around? Is lifting essentially tricking your body into thinking it should NOT get rid of the muscle? Sorry, I really like to understand how things work 
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Yep. A tape measure and a full length mirror are good tools to gauge progression. I see you are worried about upping your protein. Protein is thermogenic so you will loose fat faster if you drop the carbs slightly and up the protein a little. In no way am I advocating a low carb diet.Is it not common sense for people starting the muscle building process to measure progress by inch loss and throw the scales away? I also bought the weights for women book but i haven't started yet as i still have too much fat covering the muscles to see definition. However i just started kettle bell classes and doing 100 squats with my home kettle bell and for sure i know my legs and *kitten* r tighter nd not wobbling within 2 weeks!!!. Slow uphill process to sort out other areas but i still feel i need to keep up my cardio on lower calories to blast off a bit more fat before i am confident enough to up my calories and protien to the levels needed to build muscles up in the right way.0 -
I think you have to be careful to define your reference point. IMO, these discussions tend to be consistently skewed to the powerlifter/bodybuilder perspective.
I have seen plenty of people experience "newbie gains" of 5-10lbs, and increase their physical appearance of muscle size, all while maintaining sizeable calorie deficits.
All they going to plateau in their gains? Yes. Are they going to get as big as you? No.
However they can get as big and as strong as they ever want to be. And so I think it can be misleading to summarily dismiss these results as "irrelevant".
I understand that we all have our perceptions and reactions to what we perceive as annoying threads that pop up on the forums over and over, and that we choose different points of emphasis.
As anyone knows, I have more than a few myself.
I don't disagree with you. You're just zeroing in on my particular word choice. I'm not saying that gaining a small amount of muscle is irrelevant, per se. What I'm saying the amount of words wasted on this site on the relatively small and short lived phenomenon referred to as "newbie gains" is WAAAAAAY out of proportion to it's actual value
Hence, my second to last sentence.
But, as much as I understand and respect your position, and, if nothing else, for the sake of pure pedantry, I am sticking to my original point, i.e. that the discussions are skewed by using the farther end of the muscle-building spectrum as the baseline. And I would still contend that the "actual value" of so-called "newbie gains" can be quite significant for those who experience them.
In fact, I would go further and contend that those "newbie gains" are much more important for overall weight loss and health than a 15 or 20lb increase in muscle mass.0 -
Thank you! This is so thoughtfully explained I think I 'get it' but what I don't get is why would you lose muscle if you don't participate in strength training? just because your body doesn't require all that muscle to move it around? Is lifting essentially tricking your body into thinking it should NOT get rid of the muscle? Sorry, I really like to understand how things work
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-1.html
Here is a link to a good article that addresses this - and here is a quote from it: "the primary stimulus for muscle growth is progressive high tension overload (e.g. adding more weight to the bar over time). Without getting into a big old technical discussion of protein synthesis and breakdown here (you can read The Protein Book if you’re interested); I’ll simply say here that the high tension stimulus that builds muscle is the exact same high tension stimulus that will maintain muscle mass when you’re dieting."
Lots of good stuff on his site and food for thought.0 -
I think you have to be careful to define your reference point. IMO, these discussions tend to be consistently skewed to the powerlifter/bodybuilder perspective.
I have seen plenty of people experience "newbie gains" of 5-10lbs, and increase their physical appearance of muscle size, all while maintaining sizeable calorie deficits.
All they going to plateau in their gains? Yes. Are they going to get as big as you? No.
However they can get as big and as strong as they ever want to be. And so I think it can be misleading to summarily dismiss these results as "irrelevant".
I understand that we all have our perceptions and reactions to what we perceive as annoying threads that pop up on the forums over and over, and that we choose different points of emphasis.
As anyone knows, I have more than a few myself.
I don't disagree with you. You're just zeroing in on my particular word choice. I'm not saying that gaining a small amount of muscle is irrelevant, per se. What I'm saying the amount of words wasted on this site on the relatively small and short lived phenomenon referred to as "newbie gains" is WAAAAAAY out of proportion to it's actual value
Hence, my second to last sentence.
But, as much as I understand and respect your position, and, if nothing else, for the sake of pure pedantry, I am sticking to my original point, i.e. that the discussions are skewed by using the farther end of the muscle-building spectrum as the baseline. And I would still contend that the "actual value" of so-called "newbie gains" can be quite significant for those who experience them.
In fact, I would go further and contend that those "newbie gains" are much more important for overall weight loss and health than a 15 or 20lb increase in muscle mass.
I was mistaken when I said we were in agreement. I couldn't disagree more, in fact0
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