Using nutrition with intermittent Fasting for fat loss

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Replies

  • SanteMulberry
    SanteMulberry Posts: 3,202 Member
    bump...
  • vidasana87
    vidasana87 Posts: 75
    Yep :)
    if training fasted, increases your performance do that.

    if training fed, increases your performance do that.

    Not really worth worrying about minute details of fat oxidation IMO unless you are looking to step on stage.

    ^^
  • CoachJake83
    CoachJake83 Posts: 108
    Another problem people have in analyzing IF is looking too closely at the fat burn. "Does it burn more fat or not?"

    This is irrelevant. The primary benefits of IF go far beyond that.

    How about:

    1. Extended Life Span
    2. Better Sleep
    3. Increased HGH
    4. Increased Insulin Response
    5. More energy during workouts (For some who may digest slowly, if using fasted training)
    6. Convenient cooking time(2-3 easy big meals, versus cooking ridiculous chipmunk meals all day every 10 minutes)
    7. Reduced fat gain while bulking
    8. Increased focus and mental clarity during fasted hours.

    The list goes on. Once you try it and stick with it for a month, in my opinion, it's damn near impossible to ever go back to 'modern day' meal frequency. IF is a more natural way to eat as we always have.

    The body can be in a fed state, or a fasted state. In a fed state resources are diverted to handling digestion, in a fasted state they are used for everything else. Would you rather have 2/3 of your body's time spent digesting, or 2/3 healing? It's logical in my eyes.

    But I'm not so foolish to say everything I just typed is fact, merely my own opinions based on the research I've done, and personal experience over the last year. I'm definitely never goin' back.
  • vidasana87
    vidasana87 Posts: 75
    John Romaniello sums up the benefits of IF nicely here:

    http://ca.askmen.com/sports/foodcourt_700/703_intermittent-fasting.html
  • par57
    par57 Posts: 74
    It's too late for me to analyze the whole post, but I will tell you something you should abandon immediately:

    Training in a fasted state, it is a myth that it helps.

    Studies have proven that those who have a meal in the morning prior to a workout burn more fat than those who have a meal afterwards. You're body NEEDS carbs to burn fat! Lowering your carbs only helps to a certain point at which going lower inhibits your fat loss.

    Spread your meals out throughout your day. Go for 200g a carb a day, and eat carbs after a workout.

    Lipogenisis (converting of carbs to fat) is inhibited after a workout, even showing no difference between low/high GI. Your body uses those carbs to restore glycogen stores that were depleted through exercise.

    Stick to low GI carbs, high fiber, and don't overdue it. Remember, your body uses carbs to burn fat!

    hodgetwins are living proof that your research is flawed. They train fasted, do not eat breakfast, and wait at least 2 hours after a workout before they eat. Some of the videos are old, from when they first started doing IF over a year ago as it was new to them.

    Breakfast Speeds Up Metabolism
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03gjSG8md7s

    FastingTwins: The Importance of Not Eating Postworkout!!!!!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXLqmqBzeU

    TMW: Energy While Intermittent Fasting Has Been Amazing
    .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeViPIwDagY

    Habits That Can Hinder or Stop Natural HGH
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH7CPh8u2RA


    .

    youtube is not research
  • AbsoluteNG
    AbsoluteNG Posts: 1,079 Member

    youtube is not research

    I agree, it's not research but much more fun and entertaining to watch others who have researched the subject and be a living example of the topic than to go find the papers myself which I have done before. Maybe I should save the papers next time I'm up for a serious debate?
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,136 Member
    Hi! I tried IF for a couple weeks, but in the end, just wound up back in my old habits. It's tough to maintain if you have an active social life-- drinks with friends at 9pm, early breakfast with the folks, etc. I realized I was planning my entire life around this fasting schedule...or staying at home and missing out on things I shouldn't have. :( I will say this however-- that first meal after the 16-hour fast tastes SO GOOD. If you don't do it for the weight loss, then do it for the benefit of training yourself to appreciate, savor, and relish the taste of food. I don't think IF is harmful if done properly and I think some people benefit from the eating schedule greatly. I'm just not one of them. :)

    I did IF (lean gains 18/8) for about six months. I like it but had the same problem that you mentioned above where as I felt like i was spending all evening cooking or getting meals ready ..I swithced back to eating about four times a day and have kept my progress going ...IF did help me lean out, it just was not good fit for my lifestyle...
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,136 Member
    I've been using Intermittent Fasting with incredible success for the last 12 months. I won't pretend to be an expert on nutrition or meal frequency, but that's something I don't think anyone can claim. What I can offer is my own personal experience and knowledge.

    When it comes to Intermittent Fasting you want to avoid low carbing, they mix like oil and water. I have my own feelings of the uselessness of low carbing but that's another story. As far as combining low carb and IF, don't do it, trust me on that.

    I've gotten my body fat to stage competition levels between 4-5% eating upwards of 60% of my calories from carbs.

    When it comes to macronutrient profiles I would highly suggest something between .8-1g of protein per lb of body weight, .25-.3g of fat per lb of body weight, and fill the rest of your calories with carbs. Find your -20% deficit amount using harris benedict.

    Naturally for optimal fat loss results regardless of meal frequency you want to maintain high amounts of resistance training, with minimal cardio (perhaps 20 min light cardio after your daily workout is fine or on occasion if you prefer, but not necessary) Not to be confused with HIIT training of course.

    Training fasted does have a lot of benefits, but it's futile to argue what is better, fasted or non fasted training. I know personally from my own results over the last year that fasted training is simply incredible. Muscles don't lose any strength until 36+ hours of fasting, so people that say they "need to eat" before a workout, it's all in their heads. (But placebo is a POWERFUL thing)

    I suggest 30 minutes prior to training consuming a caffeinated pre workout to optimize energy and fat loss, and consuming 10g BCAA's 5-10 min prior to training as well.

    I've added 15lbs of solid muscle to my frame using purely IF, staying very lean, and I've also used it to get to low body fat levels in the 4-5% range. This comes after 2 years experience of NOT training fasted or using IF and I gotta tell ya, IF is very powerful if used consistently and correctly.

    My protocol is eating between 1-9pm. I take 1-2 scoops of C4 at 11:30, 10g BCAA (xtend scviation) at 11:55am, and hit my workout full force at 12pm. Sometimes afterwards I'll take a jog for 15-20 minutes just to get outside, cause I workout from my living room.

    Sometimes I don't start eating until 1:30 or as late as 3pm.

    Bottom line: IF works "very" well. Fasted training is kick *kitten* (But largely preference), and at the end of the day it's most important to find what works for you. If you're seeing results, stick with it.

    Muscles do not go catabolic as fast as the supplement industry tries to scare you into believing, and you don't need the ghastly amounts of protein they try to shove down your throat either. If I can gain 15lbs (while lowering body fat mind you) at .8-1g of protein daily, you can too.

    IDK - I did not view the cooking two to three big meals as a benefit. After working all day, getting home from gym, I was *kitten* now I have to cook a 2000 cal meal and then have a smaller fill in one later...then, if I did not hit my cals in first meal had to make bigger meal later in evening....

    I did like training fasted and noticed no difference in energy levels...if anything, I was more energized/alert when in fasted state....
  • AbsoluteNG
    AbsoluteNG Posts: 1,079 Member
    If anyone is interested. Here's a paper. Not sure how many people will understand what it's talking about though.

    Insulin-induced dephosphorylation of hormone-sensitive lipase
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1432-1033.1989.tb14842.x/pdf
    Insulin (1 nM) reduced CAMP-dependent protein kinase activity and also reduced lipolysis with both CAMP- dependent and CAMP-independent antilipolytic effects up to an activity ratio of = 0.4, above which the antilipo- lytic effect was lost. Insulin caused a decrease in the state of phosphorylation of hormone-sensitive lipase at all levels of CAMP-dependent protein kinase activity

    This quote pretty much sums up the research. It basically says, insulin stops the break down of fat or slows it down. Lipolysis is another word for the break down of fats. Wiki link below to to see the definition.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipolysis


    .
  • Ipalavra
    Ipalavra Posts: 32
    If anyone is interested. Here's a paper. Not sure how many people will understand what it's talking about though.

    Insulin-induced dephosphorylation of hormone-sensitive lipase
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1432-1033.1989.tb14842.x/pdf
    Insulin (1 nM) reduced CAMP-dependent protein kinase activity and also reduced lipolysis with both CAMP- dependent and CAMP-independent antilipolytic effects up to an activity ratio of = 0.4, above which the antilipo- lytic effect was lost. Insulin caused a decrease in the state of phosphorylation of hormone-sensitive lipase at all levels of CAMP-dependent protein kinase activity

    This quote pretty much sums up the research. It basically says, insulin stops the break down of fat or slows it down. Lipolysis is another word for the break down of fats. Wiki link below to to see the definition.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipolysis


    .

    But remember, when looking at these studies you have to look at lipolysis AND FFA oxidation. They go hand in hand in burning fat.
  • astrovivi
    astrovivi Posts: 183 Member
    he eats at 8pm so hasn't finished by that time so guessing he's done by 9pm so it's a 16 hour fast.




    oh and in response to the discussion about fasted training ... this was recently published to debunk the myth that fasted cardio is better. Apparently not.

    the study was well conducted in fact so worth a look.

    http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php/105668-Nail-in-the-Coffin-of-fasted-cardio
  • Missyb322
    Missyb322 Posts: 145 Member
    Well, it seems there is a lot of controversy and differing opinions as to which way builds more muscle, less wt, and speeds up metabolism. I recently started the IF diet....3 days ago. My fasting period is from 2am to 6pm. This is to coincide with my night job. So far, I'm really liking it. I'm attempting to train myself to eat when I'm hungry and not around some pre-determined meal time. I did 4 straight weeks of calorie counting prior to starting this new way of eating. I did lose 12.2# but my calorie intake was low. So I'm attempting to compare the two by doing this for 4 weeks as well. It's not only weight. I want to lose fat and develop muscle. So we will see. BTW...It is usually extremely difficult for me to lose any weight. My metabolism is probably really low.
  • Warchortle
    Warchortle Posts: 2,197 Member
    People freaking out about glycogen storage's... do they not know that protein can be synthesized into glucose if the body needs it? At the end of the day.... this is all just advice.... YOU CAN TRAIN HOWEVER THE FK YOU WANNA TRAIN!!!! Shout out to the Hodge Twins.
  • Missyb322
    Missyb322 Posts: 145 Member
    bump
  • spamantha57
    spamantha57 Posts: 674 Member
    Are you mad at carbs?
  • AbsoluteNG
    AbsoluteNG Posts: 1,079 Member
    he eats at 8pm so hasn't finished by that time so guessing he's done by 9pm so it's a 16 hour fast.




    oh and in response to the discussion about fasted training ... this was recently published to debunk the myth that fasted cardio is better. Apparently not.

    the study was well conducted in fact so worth a look.

    http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php/105668-Nail-in-the-Coffin-of-fasted-cardio

    I'm not at home right now, mobile, so I really don't have the time to read it until tomorrow. However, I believe I know what it says from skimming over it as I was thinking about it. There are a lot of people who have great success on spreading out their meals or carbs. I don't deny that and I believe it is because these individuals don't have a high insulin spike because their carbs are spread out during the day. However, I see some people in that thread take BCAAs precardio workout to prevent muscle loss which really isn't any different from leangains approach. If you follow leangains IF protocol, he recommends taking 10g of BCAAs.


    What I feel that I can take away from this thread today is that it is bad to eat post workout. But maybe someone will show me some research that says otherwise?
  • wmagoo27
    wmagoo27 Posts: 201 Member
    My current nutrition plan involves both intermittent fasting and a Targeted Ketogenic Diet. I have a 6-8 hour feeding window and I eat all of my carbs around my workouts. I still see my body fat fluctuate depending on calorie consumption but I can cut to 11% to 12% relatively quickly (I do 5 week cuts when I see that I need to).

    You should use the numbers from the end of your first week as a starting reference instead of progress. A ketogenic diet tends to cause a large amount of water weight loss the first week or so. You should not expect that kind of weight variance every week.

    If you are just aiming at a 'low carb' diet then your macros are probably fine, but if you are trying to do a ketogenic diet (which I think you are if you're measuring ketones in your urine) then you may need to drop the carb count down some more. The rule of thumb that I follow is 5% of my daily calories from carbs during the low carb portion of my day. I count my carb ups around my workouts separate.

    There is a keto group on this site that may have more information for you and less arguing about whether the diet works or is any good.
  • SaebraSpirit
    SaebraSpirit Posts: 150 Member
    Hi everyone, I though I give my first update on my new venture. My main goal is to lose bodyfat and increase Lean Mass using nutrition mainly

    I started on Friday 3rd May, preparing for the Fast. My stats are as followed:

    Weight:111.7kg - 245.7lbs

    Fat:28.7% 70.5lbs

    BMI:32.5%

    Lean Mass:176.2lbs

    After a final meal on Friday I startedmy fasting with a calorie controlled diet of 2500 calories per day, eating only 3 times a day at 1.00pm, 4.30pm and 8.00pm.

    My nutrition breakdown per day is as followed:

    Calories:2500

    Protein:188g

    Carbs:63g

    Fat:167g

    I fast from 8.00pm to 1.00pm (16 hours) and have a 8 hour eating window.

    I train in fasted stated at 12.00pm before my first meal. The training is intense for 45mins to 60 mins as I am carb depleting at the moment for carb load up on Saturday 11th May at 12.00pm.

    I am using several techniques, fasting, low carb nutrition and carb loading. I am trying to get my body to use fat as source of energy and minimise lean mass loss at the same time.

    I will be measuring ketones on Sat 11 may on my urine.

    Here are my new stats as follwed after 5 days:

    Bodyweight: 110.5kg 243.1 lbs

    Bodyfat: 27.3% 66.3lbs

    Lean Mass: 176.7 lbs

    BMI: 32.3

    So I have decrease total body weight by 2.6 lbs, decrease bodyfat by 4.2 lbs and gained 0.6 lbs in lean mass.

    I have been drinking 8-10 litres of water per day ( makes you go to the toilet every 30 minutes)

    My passed background in training was strength training and heavy weight training, eating 7 times a day and high calories with focused on protein. I gained good progress in the passed but slow in losing body fat hence I am trying this method which totally going against my past experience.

    So there you are, let me know what you think.

    Many thanks

    Sergio

    Are you perhaps paleo or primal?
    By the looks of your macros and your knowledge on the benefits of IF, I'm guessing you atleast know of it?

    Anyways, IF is absolutely wonderful for health if you want to enter ketosis you will need to lower the carbs further especially as you gotta have high protion to build lean mass. Protein can sometimes inhibit entering ketosis.
    Anyways I think otherwise your methods are very practical and you should see some excellent results. :)
  • PcShed
    PcShed Posts: 84 Member
    First Week results from 4th May til 12th May 2013

    I have decreased my Body Weight by 0.4lbs
    I have decreased my Body Fat by 2.41lbs
    I have increased my Lean Mass by 2lbs

    358rt01.jpg

    Video Dairy:
    http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/rodrigs2011/media/12th May 2013 IF/IMAG0042.mp4.html

    Only 38lbs to go!!!

    Sergio
  • PcShed
    PcShed Posts: 84 Member
    First Week results from 4th May til 12th May 2013

    I have decreased my Body Weight by 0.4lbs
    I have decreased my Body Fat by 2.41lbs
    I have increased my Lean Mass by 2lbs

    358rt01.jpg

    Video Dairy:
    http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/rodrigs2011/media/12th May 2013 IF/IMAG0042.mp4.html

    Only 38lbs to go!!!

    Sergio

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