Should surgery cost be standardized?

Last time I checked this was still America and socialism hadn't been adopted.

Capitalism is fine for business. But healthcare shouldn't be a for profit venture. Part of the reason people near poverty level don't get check ups is because they can't afford the premiums to cover health care.
The number one cause for bankruptcy is medical expenses.

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For profit is what drives research and development in the US. Don't be so quick to get rid of it or you can kiss any chance of a cure for any disease out the window. The reason so many people are so close to poverty is that they don't plan appropriately. They figure someone will always bail them out so they play when they should study, play when they should work, play when they should raise their children, play when they should plan, spend when they should save, and buy Iphones and bling instead of health insurance. Many of the "poverty level" people have more gadgets and gold than I will ever see in this life. I work everyday to pay for their food, housing, and education, I shouldn't also have to sacrifice my level of healthcare so they can get that for free too.

You have a very naive view of how poverty works and what causes people to live and stay at poverty level incomes. Basically right off Fox news radio.

Last time I checked this was still America and socialism hadn't been adopted.

Capitalism is fine for business. But healthcare shouldn't be a for profit venture. Part of the reason people near poverty level don't get check ups is because they can't afford the premiums to cover health care.
The number one cause for bankruptcy is medical expenses.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

For profit is what drives research and development in the US. Don't be so quick to get rid of it or you can kiss any chance of a cure for any disease out the window. The reason so many people are so close to poverty is that they don't plan appropriately. They figure someone will always bail them out so they play when they should study, play when they should work, play when they should raise their children, play when they should plan, spend when they should save, and buy Iphones and bling instead of health insurance. Many of the "poverty level" people have more gadgets and gold than I will ever see in this life. I work everyday to pay for their food, housing, and education, I shouldn't also have to sacrifice my level of healthcare so they can get that for free too.

Lol, wait when we're speaking of bail outs are you excluding big banks with lots of money too?:laugh: While I won't disagree with your statement of how people handle money, I'm more than sure that people who have health insurance are paying a big chunk for it. Most working people have jobs that offer health care benefits and pay for them yet still can be near the poverty level. Got an aunt who's a nurse, owns a house, no fancy car, but a lot of her money goes to my cousin's heart problems (born with).
And if you didn't know it already, whether you think you're paying for it or not, other peoples health care bills that aren't paid for by insurance, is collected from taxes you pay.

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Yep, I am one of those people paying a big chunk for health insurance and nope we don't have a fancy car or a house that is even adequate for the size of the family we have, but if you have your way I will still pay too much for health insurance and I will get crappy care when I need to use it. If you want to cut healthcare cost then you need to look at tort reform. A major contributing factor to the difference in cost between hospitals is how much liability insurance they need and the cost of malpractice insurance for the physicians in a given area.

The reason so many people are so close to poverty is that they don't plan appropriately. They figure someone will always bail them out so they play when they should study, play when they should work, play when they should raise their children, play when they should plan, spend when they should save, and buy Iphones and bling instead of health insurance. Many of the "poverty level" people have more gadgets and gold than I will ever see in this life. I work everyday to pay for their food, housing, and education, I shouldn't also have to sacrifice my level of healthcare so they can get that for free too.

Got any reliable sources for that? Or did you once see someone who "looked poor" with an iPhone?

There are many systematic causes for poverty. The economy is crap, and if someone was born into poverty and had difficulty getting an education, that makes it even harder to get a job and get a proverbial leg up. Poverty also decreases access to birth control, resulting in larger family sizes, and since childcare is often quite expensive, this also makes it difficult to find employment. Also, when it's hard to put food on the table and pay for medication--- even with government assistance-- it's damn hard to save much.

There are a LOT of things to consider, and awareness of the high-level situation, as well as a broad, data-driven picture (not a gut reaction from one anecdote) is important.

Here is your data driven:

I was raised in one of the poorest areas of the country. I come from a large family but I was taught a work ethic and that it is wrong morally and socially to depend on others for what you are capable of doing for yourself. I worked hard and I have never taken a single dime from the government.

When I was in high school I worked as a cashier at a grocery store to help out. I would stand there everyday and watch the people in line trade their food stamps with other people in the store for cash so they could buy beer. It happened every single day that I worked, without exception.

There is an entire generation who see nothing wrong with taking from the government. What they don't seem to get or perhaps don't care is that they aren't taking from the government they are taking from me. They are able bodied and capable of working but everything is beneath them. There is not nor has there every been a job I consider beneath me if it puts food on my children's table. I expect the same of the people I give money to "help".

This is my perception as well. Sometimes people have tried to give me well meaning advice on what I could "get for free" or whatnot. I don't like that. It's so awkward and I'd hate to have to say....really? You think I should be looking for shortcuts to get something for free when I am in a position to pay for it? I always leave these people wondering how much of their well dressed persona is paid for by my tax dollars indirectly since they aren't paying for something else they have figured out how to "get for free". It's not always the people you might expect too.

Personally we have some family members that constantly fall a little and we come in with a little financial support. Not lost on us though is the irony that we notice so many little gadgets lying all around their house and wonder if they don't think we know how expensive those things actually are. There is a pervasive and insidious mentality of "take what you can get" and also this non-descript aura of some magical place in the sky where all this is coming from and no regard that it's actually coming out of people's paychecks. That people are actually paying for those "free" things.

Its a free market for a reason. It drives research and development. Perhaps the care at that hospital is significantly better, they have a lower mortality rate, or they provide additional services to make the difference. If there was truly an issue with the cost another hospital would offer the service at a lower rate to compete with the hospital in question and as the first hospital lost business it would be forced to evaluate the cost. There is some reason why they can justify that charge or someone else would be undercutting them. That is how free market works. Forcing standardized pricing cuts services in areas where it is more expensive to operate. Businesses will protect their profit margins so anytime you demand a flat cost you are really demanding they lower the quality of care and forgo any research and development. It is why socialism and communism always fail to produce innovation. Where there is no motivation $ there is no innovation.

The US isn't the only place where innovation happens. Many countries all over the world contribute to research and development of their own and still have complementary health care for patients.

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Can you name one socialist country with anywhere near the cancer research taking place in the US?

Why does a country have to be socialist to offer free health care? Canada, Japan and England aren't and all offer great research for cancer.

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Their research still pales in comparison with what is being done in the US. Not just for cancer but for so many others. We are leading the way in this department by leaps and bounds. Are you willing to give that up? Are you willing to set back finding the cure for cancer, alzheimer's, or any of the thousands of incurable conditions just so that someone who didn't plan ahead can continue to not plan ahead but not see any consequences for it?

Of course health care should work on free market principals. If I'm rich, I want access to more and better. If I'm broke, I get a lower standard of care. Or no care. That's how capitalism works. I think we should have a universal health care system in the US, but even still people with mo money get mo options. The education system works the same way

Not against people with more money who can afford it to pay more for higher optional services if they so choose. I just don't believe healthcare should be denied because of money statis.

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That's how the NHS works in the UK. Everyone is welcome to use it, and it provides a good standard of care, but if you want to choose a specific surgeon, or want a private room with gold leaf on the walls and waitress service, or you want something not required medically, such a cosmetic surgery purely for body enhancement, then you either buy an insurance package to cover it (fancier hospital, choice of surgeon, not cosmetic stuff), or you dip into your pockets.

That sounds good. Do you like it?

Its a free market for a reason. It drives research and development. Perhaps the care at that hospital is significantly better, they have a lower mortality rate, or they provide additional services to make the difference. If there was truly an issue with the cost another hospital would offer the service at a lower rate to compete with the hospital in question and as the first hospital lost business it would be forced to evaluate the cost. There is some reason why they can justify that charge or someone else would be undercutting them. That is how free market works. Forcing standardized pricing cuts services in areas where it is more expensive to operate. Businesses will protect their profit margins so anytime you demand a flat cost you are really demanding they lower the quality of care and forgo any research and development. It is why socialism and communism always fail to produce innovation. Where there is no motivation $ there is no innovation.

The US isn't the only place where innovation happens. Many countries all over the world contribute to research and development of their own and still have complementary health care for patients.

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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Can you name one socialist country with anywhere near the cancer research taking place in the US?

Why does a country have to be socialist to offer free health care? Canada, Japan and England aren't and all offer great research for cancer.

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Their research still pales in comparison with what is being done in the US. Not just for cancer but for so many others. We are leading the way in this department by leaps and bounds. Are you willing to give that up? Are you willing to set back finding the cure for cancer, alzheimer's, or any of the thousands of incurable conditions just so that someone who didn't plan ahead can continue to not plan ahead but not see any consequences for it?

There are some situations that can't be planned ahead for though. There are catastrophic things that sometimes happen to people that could never be predicted.

The cure's? I sometimes wonder if with all the fundraising and donating that goes to some of these organized collectors of money why the cure's arent' here yet? Some of these things have been studied forever and researched forever as well. It seems odd all that time and money has still resulted in no cure. It's odd, no?

I kind of think unless you actually know personally someone who has this mentality, it's hard to imagine they are out there. But they are. There are people who go through their whole life just looking what they can get for free. Whether from the government, people they know personally, or otherwise. It's sad, frustrating, and disempowering. *this from the girl who relies on her hubby for cash* LMFAO. I think you get my point though. I unfortunately have a set of in-laws that are this way. Their mentality truly confuses me.

Morally is it any different from someone who earns a huge amount of money, and then uses tax avoidance schemes so that they pay less income tax, or a corporation that moves money offshore to avoid paying taxes?

You get these people everywhere, they aren't confined to the poor classes.

Oh I love living in Canada! My mom had very extensive surgery and we didn't pay a cent! Had a private room for 3 weeks and a nurse visit 3 times a week when she was out of the hospital, didn't pay for that either.

I feel bad for you guys.

I was SHOCKED when I found out that you pay to have a baby... That's just pure craziness!

Last time I checked this was still America and socialism hadn't been adopted.

Capitalism is fine for business. But healthcare shouldn't be a for profit venture. Part of the reason people near poverty level don't get check ups is because they can't afford the premiums to cover health care.
The number one cause for bankruptcy is medical expenses.

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You're going to have to target key areas to why surgery is so expensive. Just off the top of my head here?

The cost of a medical school (and nursing) education and subsequent training program (intern, resident, attending, etc. /cna, lpn, rn/bsn, np, etc) which in turn, drives the salaries (and administrative costs) of providing health care. Here's a good place to start. I don't think you can reasonably ask for medicine to be a non-profit venture when its education CAN AND DOES drive those who undertake it into DEEP DEEP debt for years. Were talking more than 100K sometimes up to 250K coming out of college, if not more than that, depending how far they took their education, their specialties, etc. And plenty of people go into medicine BECAUSE IT MAKES MONEY. People with the ability to pursue such a pathway for a long time WANT THAT PAYOUT. How would we suddenly shut this down as a perfectly good avenue to get paid in spades? It seems, on its face, that would punish those who spend years of their life honing their craft, wouldn't it?

Insurance companies. They are able to negotiate prices with amazing prowess, but if you are of the common rabble, without it, expect to pay through the nose. Will the so-called Obamacare fix this? No one seems to know.

I kind of think unless you actually know personally someone who has this mentality, it's hard to imagine they are out there. But they are. There are people who go through their whole life just looking what they can get for free. Whether from the government, people they know personally, or otherwise. It's sad, frustrating, and disempowering. *this from the girl who relies on her hubby for cash* LMFAO. I think you get my point though. I unfortunately have a set of in-laws that are this way. Their mentality truly confuses me.

Morally is it any different from someone who earns a huge amount of money, and then uses tax avoidance schemes so that they pay less income tax, or a corporation that moves money offshore to avoid paying taxes?

You get these people everywhere, they aren't confined to the poor classes.

agreed.

Reading this makes me glad to be English! The NHS isn't perfect, and we do pay for it in our taxes, but I'm glad I can go to hospital if necessary and not be given a huge bill.

How long do you wait for a non emergency? I can get in to see my doctor tomorrow without an appointment. If my baby runs a fever I can take him to his doctor or one of the 15 urgent cares or 5 hospitals within a 5 mile radius of my house and yes I pay for it but so do you. You either pay from your pocket, pay through your taxes, or pay in quality but everyone pays.

We have a drop in clinic for non-emergency GP appointments, max wait around 2 hrs. Routine appointments can be made at most nhs clinics for same day or within 24hrs.

My son had ear -ache a few months ago in the evening. We phoned out of hours, got an appointment at the drop in clinic at the hospital, were seen straight away. I had to have my wisdom teeth out under general a few years ago, think I waited 4 months. It was free, even got given painkillers, and I had to stay overnight as my blood pressure dropped.

I've had 2 children and had to stay 3 nights with my first as he wouldn't feed. My local hospital has excellent maternity care. We get free prescriptions while pregnant then until our baby turns 1.

My mum has leukaemia. She was diagnosed last year at the out of hours clinic on a Sunday and was started on treatment the same day.

Whenever I phone my GP for an appointment or the kids they make one right away. When my son had croup they told us to come immediately.

The reason so many people are so close to poverty is that they don't plan appropriately. They figure someone will always bail them out so they play when they should study, play when they should work, play when they should raise their children, play when they should plan, spend when they should save, and buy Iphones and bling instead of health insurance. Many of the "poverty level" people have more gadgets and gold than I will ever see in this life. I work everyday to pay for their food, housing, and education, I shouldn't also have to sacrifice my level of healthcare so they can get that for free too.

Got any reliable sources for that? Or did you once see someone who "looked poor" with an iPhone?

There are many systematic causes for poverty. The economy is crap, and if someone was born into poverty and had difficulty getting an education, that makes it even harder to get a job and get a proverbial leg up. Poverty also decreases access to birth control, resulting in larger family sizes, and since childcare is often quite expensive, this also makes it difficult to find employment. Also, when it's hard to put food on the table and pay for medication--- even with government assistance-- it's damn hard to save much.

There are a LOT of things to consider, and awareness of the high-level situation, as well as a broad, data-driven picture (not a gut reaction from one anecdote) is important.

Here is your data driven:

I was raised in one of the poorest areas of the country. I come from a large family but I was taught a work ethic and that it is wrong morally and socially to depend on others for what you are capable of doing for yourself. I worked hard and I have never taken a single dime from the government.

When I was in high school I worked as a cashier at a grocery store to help out. I would stand there everyday and watch the people in line trade their food stamps with other people in the store for cash so they could buy beer. It happened every single day that I worked, without exception.

There is an entire generation who see nothing wrong with taking from the government. What they don't seem to get or perhaps don't care is that they aren't taking from the government they are taking from me. They are able bodied and capable of working but everything is beneath them. There is not nor has there every been a job I consider beneath me if it puts food on my children's table. I expect the same of the people I give money to "help".

anyone who thinks people WANT to be on welfare, and abuse it, are extremely uneducated in poverty. don't spew your generalizations onto other people further inducing stigma and stereotypes of the poor and working class.

people are ALLOWED to buy beer, and if the system is set up to ALLOW them to buy beer with their foodstamps, then they have that free choice. how can you make the assumption that they aren't working hard to put food on their children's table. or maybe their food need is fulfilled by local shelters and soup kitchens. there are so many systemic issues, and your "experience" as a cashier is completely biased and doesn't really warrant ANY MERIT to state "Data driven"

Its a free market for a reason. It drives research and development. Perhaps the care at that hospital is significantly better, they have a lower mortality rate, or they provide additional services to make the difference. If there was truly an issue with the cost another hospital would offer the service at a lower rate to compete with the hospital in question and as the first hospital lost business it would be forced to evaluate the cost. There is some reason why they can justify that charge or someone else would be undercutting them. That is how free market works. Forcing standardized pricing cuts services in areas where it is more expensive to operate. Businesses will protect their profit margins so anytime you demand a flat cost you are really demanding they lower the quality of care and forgo any research and development. It is why socialism and communism always fail to produce innovation. Where there is no motivation $ there is no innovation.

The US isn't the only place where innovation happens. Many countries all over the world contribute to research and development of their own and still have complementary health care for patients.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Can you name one socialist country with anywhere near the cancer research taking place in the US?

Why does a country have to be socialist to offer free health care? Canada, Japan and England aren't and all offer great research for cancer.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Their research still pales in comparison with what is being done in the US. Not just for cancer but for so many others. We are leading the way in this department by leaps and bounds. Are you willing to give that up? Are you willing to set back finding the cure for cancer, alzheimer's, or any of the thousands of incurable conditions just so that someone who didn't plan ahead can continue to not plan ahead but not see any consequences for it?

i think all of your information is so skewed, as i read through this thread, and you should stop putting opinions forth as facts.