Water only diet vs Protein shake diet

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  • 3laine75
    3laine75 Posts: 3,070 Member
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    Uneducated idiot would like to know what marvelous effects are to be achieved by doing any kind of fast for any number of days?

    cell repair
    and according to studies (don't have time to look for links, sorry) extended life expectancy.

    i don't do it myself - i like my food too much - just sayin'
  • Morninglory81
    Morninglory81 Posts: 1,190 Member
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    Your body will canabilize muscle after your glycerin stores have been depleted. Most of your body can run off the energy that comes from fat BUT your brain runs on carbohydrates and muscle is the one thing that brakes down in to a usable energy source for the brain. I would suggest a small bit of juice if you are determined to fast for extended periods of time. The suggestion of a eating schedule of 18 hr fast followed by 6 hours to eat is really a good sujestion with maybe a 24-48 hour water fast once a week.
  • craigmandu
    craigmandu Posts: 976 Member
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    Why on gods earth are you saying muscle cannibalisation is nonsense?? that is simply another term for your body consuming proteins from your muscle when you are on a low calorie diet or fast..

    If you have honestly never heard that you loose muscle when dieting then you have no business posting in forums where a person is asking for advice.

    Oh yeah you dont consume muscle when dieting.. thats why all the starving people in concentration camps had massive abs and ripped muscly bodies.. and were in fact strong and not weak in the slightest...

    God it can be so infuriating trying to get honest advice when so many miss informed (and im sorry but i dont really wanna be rude) idiots are posting in these forums.. especially when someone says that your body consuming muscle is a scam or a fad LOL.

    There has been some great help from some people so thanks!

    Don't attack....you are not here to "prove a point" you asked a question. You will get both answers you like, and answers you don't.

    From everything I've read, even on a small fast, if you haven't prepared for it adequately after your initial glycogen stores are expended you will consume a small amount of muscle...not a large amount think maybe an ounce or two of actual mass depletion until your body completely enters ketosis. I've not read any way to keep that from happening.
  • 3laine75
    3laine75 Posts: 3,070 Member
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    hi again
    i found the name of the programme i mentioned earlier. its, 'Horizon: Eat, Fast and Live Longer' and was shown on BBC2 (in the UK last year) - its worth a watch if you can find it. i don't think there was any specific mention of macros though re: how much protein to include so it might not be what you're looking for.

    i see he has a book out now called 'the fast diet' :S - doesn't always inspire confidence when they start trying to make money from it.
  • crazybookworm
    crazybookworm Posts: 779 Member
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    popcorn.gif

    And let the fun begin...
  • chrisdavey
    chrisdavey Posts: 9,835 Member
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    Luckily, there is already a great post on this.
    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/821828-detoxes-and-cleanses

    And I started the IF group so I'm certainly not against fasting. How long have you fasted before? WHat was your daily,weekly deficit? How did your measurements change? Do you even lift?

    Cannibalisation: can·ni·bal·ize (kn-b-lz)
    v. can·ni·bal·ized, can·ni·bal·iz·ing, can·ni·bal·iz·es
    v.tr.
    1. To remove serviceable parts from (damaged airplanes, for example) for use in the repair of other equipment of the same kind.
    2. To deprive of vital elements or resources, such as personnel, equipment, or funding, for use elsewhere: "It becomes necessary to cannibalize unsuccessful projects to fund those which can proceed" (Daily Report for Executives).
    3. To draw on as a major source: "cannibalizes the lives of his wife and friends for his second-rate novels" (Washington Post).
    4. To practice cannibalism on.
    v.intr.
    To practice cannibalism.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Cannibalisation

    Catabolism: ca·tab·o·lism (k-tb-lzm)
    n.
    The metabolic breakdown of complex molecules into simpler ones, often resulting in a release of energy.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/catabolism

    I would probably drop the holier than thou attitude until you get a few basic facts correct.
  • wareagle8706
    wareagle8706 Posts: 1,090 Member
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    Why on gods earth are you saying muscle cannibalisation is nonsense?? that is simply another term for your body consuming proteins from your muscle when you are on a low calorie diet or fast..

    If you have honestly never heard that you loose muscle when dieting then you have no business posting in forums where a person is asking for advice.

    Oh yeah you dont consume muscle when dieting.. thats why all the starving people in concentration camps had massive abs and ripped muscly bodies.. and were in fact strong and not weak in the slightest...

    God it can be so infuriating trying to get honest advice when so many miss informed (and im sorry but i dont really wanna be rude) idiots are posting in these forums.. especially when someone says that your body consuming muscle is a scam or a fad LOL.

    There has been some great help from some people so thanks!

    Who are you even talking to? When you don't quote people then we don't know who you're responding to. I haven't seen anyone say that people don't LOSE (not "loose," learn the difference) muscle mass when dieting. and I didn't say that either. It's very well established that people will lose muscle and fat when dieting. What I'm saying is you're an idiot for thinking it's ok to only drink water for an extended period of time. That's what I'm saying. But like I said.... if you want to be fatigued, unfocused and weak for days and days, by all means!! You're young... you'll figure it out sooner or later.... It's pretty crazy how defensive and insulting you are toward people right off the bat. Since this in an online forum where you must type out your response that means you have plenty of time to think about your response before hitting "post." Maybe you should practice some restraint instead of jumping down people's throats from the get go. But again.... you're young....
  • myofibril
    myofibril Posts: 4,500 Member
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    You don't strike me as grossly obese but you can read this for education purposes:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/
  • crazycleo
    crazycleo Posts: 36
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    The positive effects are endless! in fact read 25 on them right here! http://www.listafterlist.com/tabid/57/listid/16131/Health/Top+25+Positive+Effects+of+Fasting.aspx

    This is one of the least reputable sources that I have ever come across... I guess I knew that it would be considering what it's advocating. Although at least it mentions that "There has been much contention in the scientific field about whether or not fasting is beneficial to ones health"

    I know that this is something that you are going to do anyways despite people's opinions of it are but you really may want to consider taking what some of these people have said into account. You asked for advice and most people think that it's a bad idea... maybe there's a reason behind that?
    Although the proven positive effects sound REALLY awesome:
    "25. Generally happier, more confident, more kind, more loving and more adventurous"
    If that's not a load of hokey, I don't know what is!
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
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    muscle canibalisation
    muscle cannibalisation
    muscle cannibalisation is nonsense??

    The irony of you telling other people that they "have really no clue what you are talking about" is delicious.
  • MHackrott
    MHackrott Posts: 84 Member
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    Also, what is an effective number of days to endure a water fast for to get an optimal detox?
    0?

    Your body has some excellent mechanisms for 'detoxifying' evolved to work with food consumption over the millennia.

    From the wikipedia disambiguation page: "Detoxification, the process, real or perceived, of removing toxins from the body."
    A little further down that same page: Detoxification (alternative medicine), is the unsupported belief that a change in consumption habits can remove toxins from the body.

    Does anyone have any good evidence it's anything but pure 'woo'?

    There's plenty of evidence regarding addiction to drugs and how a 'detox' can help you get off with an appropriate program I believe. I haven't seen any so far for food related ones. Nor 'cleanses'.

    Wikepedia is NOT a reliable soruce anyone can post anything there!
  • JakeBrownVB
    JakeBrownVB Posts: 399 Member
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    I was quoting someone who said that muscle being consumed or "cannibalized" as I said it, was utterly ridiculous and basically that the term was idiotic and after they looked it up on line they were led to "fad diet" website. I am really glad this thread has gone down the same route 80% of threads go... arguing over terminoligy when the point being made is realy rather obvious and clear. So thanks to all those who helped adress my question and no thanks to those who decided arguing over a word was really a helpful reply to make.
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
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    I was quoting someone who said that muscle being consumed or "cannibalized" as I said it, was utterly ridiculous and basically that the term was idiotic and after they looked it up on line they were led to "fad diet" website. I am really glad this thread has gone down the same route 80% of threads go... arguing over terminoligy when the point being made is realy rather obvious and clear. So thanks to all those who helped adress my question and no thanks to those who decided arguing over a word was really a helpful reply to make.

    If fasting for a week is so effective, why aren't elite level athletes and body builders doing it?

    Oh wait, that's right, because they actually have to train.
  • kazmurphblin
    kazmurphblin Posts: 114 Member
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    BORING!!!
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Hi,

    Im sure we all know the massive benefits that going on a water only diet for a few days can bring (if you dont, please dont talk about starvation mode and crashed metabolism please.. not interested in hearing advocates of these myths). However one concern I have over a 3-5 day water fast is possible muscle canibalisation. Does anyone think or know that subbing in 1 or 2 protein shakes during this fast may prevent that and promote a better burn of fat and over muscle?

    Should muscle cannibalisation be a concern during a water only fast or is it not that big a deal?

    Also, what is an effective number of days to endure a water fast for to get an optimal detox?

    Thanks for any help

    No, we don't.

    What on earth do you think you are detoxing? Are you are drug addict?

    It's catabolism not cannibalism.
  • etoiles_argentees
    etoiles_argentees Posts: 2,827 Member
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    #1OFFLINE Brett Black
    Posted 14 November 2010 - 08:14 AM



    I think there's a very strong case to be made that almost all humans currently practicing caloric restriction are doing so in a way that fundamentally and significantly differs from how caloric restriction is implemented in and affects rodents. Here is my argument:


    The overwhelming majority of caloric restriction(CR) experiments in rodents, whether studying lifespan, longevity or health effects, involve rodents on CR being served a single ration of food per day(with a few exceptions, which are addressed in detail below.)

    This delivery of a single ration of food per day is usually used in CR'ed animals simply because it is the easiest way to implement a calorie-restricted diet. All the food for the day is measured out and then delivered to the feeding area of the animal all at once, which is much easier than delivering multiple precisely measured batches of food throughout the day.

    In comparison, the "control" ad-libitum(free-feeding) rodents in these experiments usually have a constant supply of food available to them.

    It is sparsely mentioned or dealt with in the CR literature, but this difference in feeding regimes is known to result in dramatic differences in feeding behaviours between CR'ed and ad-libitum fed rodents.

    Ad-libitum rodents engage in a natural "nibbling" feeding pattern, eating many meals throughout the day. Ad-libitum fed rats rarely go for longer than 3 or 4 hours at at time without feeding(1) and ad-libitum mice rarely go for longer than 1 hour without feeding(11.)

    On the other hand, rodents subjected to CR gorge on their single food ration and finish it all in a very short period of time(2). This feeding pattern, unlike in the ad-libitum animals, thus results in long periods of complete food deprivation(fasting) in the CR'ed rodents until the next day's meal is supplied to them.

    It has been shown that 50% of rats on a conventional CR feeding regime finish their entire daily food ration within 3.5 hours, and 90% of rats finish it all in under 5 hours(2). This means that 50% of CR'ed rats are going for more than 20.5 hours per day without any food at all, and 90% of the CR'ed rats are going for more than 19 hours without any food per day.

    CR'ed mice eat their entire food ration within just an hour(11) and are thus subjected to a full 23 hours without food per day with conventional CR feeding regimes.

    This major difference in fasting duration between ad-libitum and CR rodents results in a raft of very significant physiological differences(3.) When subjected to only 16 hours without food(considerably less than that experienced by the average CR'ed rodent), rats lose an average of 6.9% body weight, their serum glucose concentrations drop by an average of 34.9%, triglycerides drop by 48.4% and cholesterol drops by 21.7%(3). CR'ed rats deplete their glycogen stores during the period of fasting between meals and transition into a daily state of ketosis, as well as experiencing hypothermia during this period(11). Mice rapidly switch to fatty acid oxidation(and ketosis) for fuel after just 6 hours without food(12).

    The time scale for many aspects of rodent metabolism is radically different to that of humans, so what seems like a short period of time for a human may actually represent a very long period by rodent standards.

    How might this translate and scale into human terms? Here are some comparisons: when subjected to complete food deprivation(fasting) it takes humans about 10 days to lose 10% body weigh(6), it takes rats about 24 hours to lose 10% body weight(3) and it takes mice less than 24 hours to lose 10% body weight(7).

    Non-obese humans can survive about 60 days of complete starvation(8), rats can survive about 10 days of starvation(9), mice can only survive about 6 days of starvation(10).

    By these measures, which arguably seem very relevant to the matters being discussed, there is from a 6:1 to 10:1 ratio between humans and rodents in terms of speed and duration of these particular metabolic processes.

    Taking into consideration these ratios, along with the known feeding patterns of rodents on CR, it could be suggested that the approximately 20 hours of fasting that regular CR'ed rodents experience on a daily basis, is equivalent to 120 to 200 hours of fasting for a human(5 to 8 days.) The approximately 4 hours of food gorging in CR'ed rodents might be the equivalent of a human eating about a normal week's worth of food within a period of one to two days. For a human male of 70kg, the daily weight-cycling of about 7% that rodents experience on CR would be equivalent to continuously rapidly losing and then gaining 5kg of body weight.

    Could these long periods of fasting, short periods of food gorging and the associated major impacts on physiology be the source of some or all of the beneficial effects seen in CR rodent experiments?

    So far, there have been a very small number of studies that have attempted to answer these questions. These studies reported that the life-extending properties of CR still occur when more frequent feeding regimes are used in CR'ed rodents. But I think there are some real problems with these studies.

    The two studies(that I am aware of) that increased feeding frequency and reduced fasting duration the most, still left rats with a daily 16 hour gap between food rations(4), and left mice for a 12 hour daily gap between food rations(5). As noted above, ad libitum rats normally experience a maximum of just 3 to 4 hours between meals, and ad libitum mice just 1 hour gap.

    Were these studies sufficient to rule out the effects of long periods of fasting? As shown above, even just 16 hours of food deprivation in rats results in very significant physiological effects. Mice likely experience even quicker alteration in physiology due to food deprivation, such that 12 hours without food may still be a significant period for them to go without food. These rodents were quite likely still undergoing ketosis, for instance.

    To give a comparison: using the best-case scenario, based on the feeding regimes used in the small number of studies that attempted to limit the periods between feedings, and the human:rodent metabolic ratios described above, a human-scaled equivalent feeding regime would still lead to somewhere between about 72 and 160 hours between meals. That's a minimum of three days without eating in human terms, and that's given the best case scenario currently available from studies into rodents.

    So where does this leave human caloric restriction? Should humans be engaging in multi-day fasts, interspersed with short periods of food gorging, if they want to mimic the rodent experiments? Others have suggested that a regime like this may in fact be necessary to reproduce the effects seen in rodents(13). Several tantalizing hypotheses and pieces of evidence lend support for this view. Some of the most popular and promising theories explaining the effects of CR, including modulation of autophagy, apoptosis, lipolysis and protein turnover, seem likely to require longer-term fasting in humans to be effectively activated(14,15.) Changes in gene expression have also shown that fasting seems to regulate the genes that respond to CR(16.)

    In short, I believe that there is a very strong argument to be made, that the conventional caloric restriction regimes that are currently used by most human CR practitioners(ie eating at least one or more meals every day or two), are not suitably replicating the regimes or many of the major physiological effects of CR seen and used in any CR rodent studies to date.

    -

    (1) "Meal patterns in the genetically obese Zucker rat: a reexamination"
    Castonguay TW, Upton DE, Leung PM, Stern JS. PMID: 7100292

    (2) "Methods for Inducing and Monitoring Liver Autophagy Relative to Aging and Antiaging Caloric Restriction in Rats"
    Donati A, Cavallini G, Bergamini E. PMID: 19200897

    (3) "Effect of fasting duration on clinical pathology results in Wistar rats"
    Kale VP, Joshi GS, Gohil PB, Jain MR. PMID: 19351329

    (4) "Temporal Pattern of Food Intake Not a Factor in the Retardation of Aging Processes by Dietary Restriction"
    Masoro EJ, Shimokawa I, Higami Y, McMahan CA, Yu BP. PMID: 7814779

    (5) "Meal-timing, circadian rhythms and life span of mice"
    Nelson W, Halberg F. PMID: 3794831

    (6) "Metabolic Aspects of Acute Starvation in Normal Humans (10 Days)"
    Consolazio CF, Matoush LO, Johnson HL, Nelson RA, Krzywicki HJ - PMID: 6036255

    (7) "Acute Starvation Protects Mice Against Listeria monocytogenes"
    Wing EJ, Young JB. - PMID: 6772566

    (8) "Fasting - the ultimate diet?"
    Johnstone AM. PMID: 17444963

    (9) "Factors influencing survival of rats in fasting; metabolic rate and body weight loss"
    RIXON RH, STEVENSON JA. PMID: 13411211

    (10) "Response of germfree, conventional, conventionalized and E. coli monocontaminated mice to starvation"
    Tennant B, Malm OJ, Horowitz RE, Levenson SM. PMID: 4866341

    (11) "Effect of chronic caloric restriction on physiological variables related to energy metabolism in the male Fischer 344 rat"
    Duffy PH, Feuers RJ, Leakey JA, Nakamura K, Turturro A, Hart RW. PMID: 2661930

    (12) "Calorie restriction increases fatty acid synthesis and whole body fat oxidation rates"
    Bruss MD, Khambatta CF, Ruby MA, Aggarwal I, Hellerstein MK. PMID: 19887594

    (13) "Caloric restriction in C57BL/6J mice mimics therapeutic fasting in humans"
    Mahoney LB, Denny CA, Seyfried TN. PMID: 16709251

    (14) "Proteolytic and lipolytic responses to starvation"
    Finn PF, Dice JF. PMID: 16815497

    (15) "The role of autophagy in aging: its essential part in the anti-aging mechanism of caloric restriction"
    Bergamini E, Cavallini G, Donati A, Gori Z. PMID: 16709251

    (16) "Starvation response in mouse liver shows strong correlation with life-span-prolonging processes"
    Bauer M, Hamm AC, Bonaus M, Jacob A, Jaekel J, Schorle H, Pankratz MJ, Katzenberger JD. PMID: 14762175
  • lessertess
    lessertess Posts: 855 Member
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    I went to the article the OP suggested:

    Top 25 Positive Effects of Fasting
    PROs/CONs

    Tags: fasting, diet, health, not eating, top 10, pros, positive, effects, best, reasons, tips

    Fasting is the complete abstinence from all substances except pure water in an environment of total rest. There has been much contention in the scientific field about whether or not fasting is beneficial to ones health. However, it seems that there are many reasons to consider fasting as a benefit to ones health, including:


    1. Effective means of maximizing the body’s self-healing capacities
    2. Rids the body of the toxins that have built up in our fat stores throughout the years
    3. The body heals itself and repairs all the damaged organs
    4. Contributes to longer life.
    5. Triggers a cleansing process that reaches right down to each and every cell and tissue in the body.
    6. A new vibrancy of their skin
    7. Reveals a new clarity of mind and body.
    8. Alleviates chronic stomach ache
    9. Alleviates inflammation of the colon
    10. Helps "cure" the common cold
    11. Alleviates problems associated with liver diseases
    12. Improves the immune system
    13. Helps indigestion
    14. Lowers obesity
    15. A reduction in core body temperature
    16. Aids overcoming addictions to drugs such as alcohol, cocaine, nicotine and caffeine
    17. Lowers high cholesterol levels
    18. Alleviating back and neck pain
    19. Helps issues with high blood pressure
    20. Human Growth Hormone is released more frequently
    21. An anti-aging hormone is also produced more efficiently
    22. Alleviates asthma
    23. More efficient protein production
    24. Lose weight
    25. Generally happier, more confident, more kind, more loving and more adventurous

    First of all the article states that there is no scientific evidence to support these claims! In my opinion, for what it's worth, almost every one of these claims is either wishful thinking, patently ridiculous, or flies in the face of either common sense or science. The only one that I find clearly true is #24 and #14 (they're essentially the same thing). Absolutely, if you eat nothing and drink water for a period of days you will lose weight. By the way, I copied the entire article. There's no supporting documentation for these claims. Honestly some of these are laughable.

    To the OP. Do a fast if it makes you happy. It might even be beneficial if indeed #25 is true and there are some religious practices that would support # 7. I doubt that it will do any harm for the period of time you're suggesting. The article you cited states that only "pure water" is allowable, so why are you even asking about protien drinks? AND the article says "total rest" so I would assume that means no exercise. So, no food, no protien drinks and no exercise and you want to avoid muscle cannibalisation? I agree there are some benefits to IFand there's a group on MFP that supports it. I'd advise starting with them and doing some more research.
  • JakeBrownVB
    JakeBrownVB Posts: 399 Member
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    ARGH seriously the majority of the posts here are so annoying!!! stop arguing over terminoligy for god sakes... stop nit picking at dumb points that arent relevant to what I am asking.

    I will talk in baby language to make it more simple..

    Does drinking protein shakes during a fast slow down muscle loss?
  • myofibril
    myofibril Posts: 4,500 Member
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    Does drinking protein shakes during a fast slow down muscle loss?

    Yes.

    But if you are going to do that you might as well do a PSMF.
  • Jacwhite22
    Jacwhite22 Posts: 7,012 Member
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    ARGH seriously the majority of the posts here are so annoying!!! stop arguing over terminoligy for god sakes... stop nit picking at dumb points that arent relevant to what I am asking.

    I will talk in baby language to make it more simple..

    Does drinking protein shakes during a fast slow down muscle loss?

    Google PSMF. You are welcome. Don't come on here with a condescending attitude and then attack people who call you on it.
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