Lift light or lift heavy? Lift smart!

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  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
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    i dont really agree with it being considered the same, if you lift heavy for smaller reps thats more towards strength training and just being stronger..you wont see a huge body compostion change that way unless your a beginner...low reps and heavy weights lead to a more thicker powerlifter look...if youre looking for that bodybuilding "fake muscle but totally ripped" look its better doing moderate weights with moderate reps like 8-12 reps. ive done strength training before but it was giving me a look that i was going for..once i changed to doing weights that made it difficult around the 8-12 reps thats where the huge change in body compostion change came in for me.

    also, THIS ^

    they need to define what they mean by "heavy" and "light" because without a percentage of a ORM or some strength standard for the participants, those terms mean literally nothing. I'd also want to know if the muscle gains would change after ten weeks. Newbie gains and all.
  • Justjoshin
    Justjoshin Posts: 999 Member
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    But thats the thing. People say Mr America does this or that, Usain Bolt does this or that. We are not professional athletes. We are average people trying to be the best shape of our bodies. Simple math!


    Did you just call me average?
  • NormInv
    NormInv Posts: 3,302 Member
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    i dont really agree with it being considered the same, if you lift heavy for smaller reps thats more towards strength training and just being stronger..you wont see a huge body compostion change that way unless your a beginner...low reps and heavy weights lead to a more thicker powerlifter look...if youre looking for that bodybuilding "fake muscle but totally ripped" look its better doing moderate weights with moderate reps like 8-12 reps. ive done strength training before but it was giving me a look that i was going for..once i changed to doing weights that made it difficult around the 8-12 reps thats where the huge change in body compostion change came in for me.

    also, THIS ^

    they need to define what they mean by "heavy" and "light" because without a percentage of a ORM or some strength standard for the participants, those terms mean literally nothing. I'd also want to know if the muscle gains would change after ten weeks. Newbie gains and all.

    see my response above. after 10 weeks , the newbie will no longer be a newbie and will progressively increase weight to get the fatigue.
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
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    here's my beef with your "study"... it doesn't tell me what they mean by "Heavy" and "light"
    For the group lifting heavy weights, subjects performed three sets of eight to 12 repetitions; for the group lifting lighter weights, they performed three sets of 25 to 30 repetitions. After 10 weeks, both heavy and light groups saw significant gains in muscle volume -- as measured by MRI -- "with no difference among the groups," stated the release.

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/work-muscles-point-fatigue-light-weights-reps-build-muscles-study-article-1.1070687#ixzz2TIzyYcYy

    Is that 8 reps at 80% ORM vs 16 reps at 60% ORM?? Because they would both be "heavy lifting" when my ORM is 200 lbs (8 reps at 160 lbs vs. 16 reps at 120 lbs? Doing 16 squats with 120 lbs is still pretty heavy for a 135# female.

    Specify the weights used in the study and maybe then I can make sense of it.

    Good point, and this is where I would refer to the video in the first link which talks about two things: 1) fatigue setting in, and 2) a time period of 90 seconds or less.

    Arguably the light or heavy weight would depend on the conditioning of the person, as it should. Your light could be my heavy. But if I can get my burn lifting my heavy (your light) then I will some day be able to increase my weight.

    I figure the reason they do no specify light or heavy weights is because the audience is so diverse in terms of their physical capabilities at time zero.

    I'm not talking about heavy or light in a number of pounds, but in relation to the person who is lifting.

    I can't watch the video now, but i'll check it out later.

    I have a hard time imagining there is no difference at all between moderate/high rep lifting and heavy/lowrep lifting. In some ways I could see it being the same if you are working at the same ORM. But I do both, actually. I do heavy lower reps as my main work out, and higher reps moderate weight as my assistance work. Both are hard, but they are different.
  • NormInv
    NormInv Posts: 3,302 Member
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    Look, I posted some research in OP, and you can say that that research is BS. But if you disagree could you also link to some research.
  • DrMAvDPhD
    DrMAvDPhD Posts: 2,097 Member
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    As far as I can tell most bodybuilders (as in those people who's entire goal is to build muscle) aren't doing 5x5 programs. I personally have been lifting in the 10-15 rep range for the last two months while bulking and seen really good muscle gains (considering I'm a woman).

    4 sets of 10 rows at 60 pounds doesn't feel light at the time but it isn't anywhere near my 1RM so I guess that means I'm lifting light :wink:
  • ehsan517
    ehsan517 Posts: 114
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    not even going to address the nonsense in your post, because - what the hell is going on in your profile picture?!?

    took the words right outta my mouth.
  • NormInv
    NormInv Posts: 3,302 Member
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    here's my beef with your "study"... it doesn't tell me what they mean by "Heavy" and "light"
    For the group lifting heavy weights, subjects performed three sets of eight to 12 repetitions; for the group lifting lighter weights, they performed three sets of 25 to 30 repetitions. After 10 weeks, both heavy and light groups saw significant gains in muscle volume -- as measured by MRI -- "with no difference among the groups," stated the release.

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/work-muscles-point-fatigue-light-weights-reps-build-muscles-study-article-1.1070687#ixzz2TIzyYcYy

    Is that 8 reps at 80% ORM vs 16 reps at 60% ORM?? Because they would both be "heavy lifting" when my ORM is 200 lbs (8 reps at 160 lbs vs. 16 reps at 120 lbs? Doing 16 squats with 120 lbs is still pretty heavy for a 135# female.

    Specify the weights used in the study and maybe then I can make sense of it.

    Good point, and this is where I would refer to the video in the first link which talks about two things: 1) fatigue setting in, and 2) a time period of 90 seconds or less.

    Arguably the light or heavy weight would depend on the conditioning of the person, as it should. Your light could be my heavy. But if I can get my burn lifting my heavy (your light) then I will some day be able to increase my weight.

    I figure the reason they do no specify light or heavy weights is because the audience is so diverse in terms of their physical capabilities at time zero.

    I'm not talking about heavy or light in a number of pounds, but in relation to the person who is lifting.

    I can't watch the video now, but i'll check it out later.

    I have a hard time imagining there is no difference at all between moderate/high rep lifting and heavy/lowrep lifting. In some ways I could see it being the same if you are working at the same ORM. But I do both, actually. I do heavy lower reps as my main work out, and higher reps moderate weight as my assistance work. Both are hard, but they are different.

    Well the key is fatigue setting it. It could set in with doing 6 reps of 45 lb curls, or 18 reps of 10lbs. It will set it and it will be equally beneficial.
  • NormInv
    NormInv Posts: 3,302 Member
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    As far as I can tell most bodybuilders (as in those people who's entire goal is to build muscle) aren't doing 5x5 programs. I personally have been lifting in the 10-15 rep range for the last two months while bulking and seen really good muscle gains (considering I'm a woman).

    4 sets of 10 rows at 60 pounds doesn't feel light at the time but it isn't anywhere near my 1RM so I guess that means I'm lifting light :wink:

    Good observation hot legs!
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
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    Well the key is fatigue setting it. It could set in with doing 6 reps of 45 lb curls, or 18 reps of 10lbs. It will set it and it will be equally beneficial.

    and my point is, a person who gets fatigued doing 18 reps of 10 lbs has a one rep max of 19 lbs.

    While the person who does 6 reps of 45 lbs has a one rep max of 52 lbs.

    Now, to me, it seems patently obvious that one is stronger than the other.

    Maybe the problem here is that my goal is strength and fitness and a life of doing awesome stuff like rock climbing.
  • chesq77
    chesq77 Posts: 270 Member
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    i dont really agree with it being considered the same, if you lift heavy for smaller reps thats more towards strength training and just being stronger..you wont see a huge body compostion change that way unless your a beginner...low reps and heavy weights lead to a more thicker powerlifter look...if youre looking for that bodybuilding "fake muscle but totally ripped" look its better doing moderate weights with moderate reps like 8-12 reps. ive done strength training before but it was giving me a look that i was going for..once i changed to doing weights that made it difficult around the 8-12 reps thats where the huge change in body compostion change came in for me.

    also, THIS ^

    they need to define what they mean by "heavy" and "light" because without a percentage of a ORM or some strength standard for the participants, those terms mean literally nothing. I'd also want to know if the muscle gains would change after ten weeks. Newbie gains and all.

    to me heavy would be anything that makes you struggle doing 5 reps and lower....so that would be anywhere from 80%-100% of your ORM....that leads to not a huge difference in body compostion unless youre a noob...as a noob youll change a little bit but not as much as you would if you trained for hypertrophy which is working between 60%-80% of your ORM doing 8-12 reps because youll have more time under tension on the muscles and thats what makes muscles grow bigger but not that much stronger....it all depends on the look youre going for...strength training is great for noobs so later on they can begin doing hypertrophy routines if they want that bodybuilding ripped look

    rule of thumb for me is
    1-5 reps....strength training 100%-80% of ORM...more for strength not a huge change in body compostion
    8-12 reps...hypertrophy training 60%-80% of ORM....more for that overall muscluar ripped look but not so much in strength
    15 and up...endurance training lower than 60% of ORM....best for athletes, especially runners
  • chesq77
    chesq77 Posts: 270 Member
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    As far as I can tell most bodybuilders (as in those people who's entire goal is to build muscle) aren't doing 5x5 programs. I personally have been lifting in the 10-15 rep range for the last two months while bulking and seen really good muscle gains (considering I'm a woman).

    4 sets of 10 rows at 60 pounds doesn't feel light at the time but it isn't anywhere near my 1RM so I guess that means I'm lifting light :wink:

    exactly! she knows what shes doing.
  • NormInv
    NormInv Posts: 3,302 Member
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    Well the key is fatigue setting it. It could set in with doing 6 reps of 45 lb curls, or 18 reps of 10lbs. It will set it and it will be equally beneficial.

    and my point is, a person who gets fatigued doing 18 reps of 10 lbs has a one rep max of 19 lbs.

    While the person who does 6 reps of 45 lbs has a one rep max of 52 lbs.

    Now, to me, it seems patently obvious that one is stronger than the other.

    Maybe the problem here is that my goal is strength and fitness and a life of doing awesome stuff like rock climbing.

    I didnt follow. The person who is starting out at 18 reps of 10 will gain in strength and muscle and will some day be able to do 10 reps of 45, and rock climb.
  • NormInv
    NormInv Posts: 3,302 Member
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    i dont really agree with it being considered the same, if you lift heavy for smaller reps thats more towards strength training and just being stronger..you wont see a huge body compostion change that way unless your a beginner...low reps and heavy weights lead to a more thicker powerlifter look...if youre looking for that bodybuilding "fake muscle but totally ripped" look its better doing moderate weights with moderate reps like 8-12 reps. ive done strength training before but it was giving me a look that i was going for..once i changed to doing weights that made it difficult around the 8-12 reps thats where the huge change in body compostion change came in for me.

    also, THIS ^

    they need to define what they mean by "heavy" and "light" because without a percentage of a ORM or some strength standard for the participants, those terms mean literally nothing. I'd also want to know if the muscle gains would change after ten weeks. Newbie gains and all.

    to me heavy would be anything that makes you struggle doing 5 reps and lower....so that would be anywhere from 80%-100% of your ORM....that leads to not a huge difference in body compostion unless youre a noob...as a noob youll change a little bit but not as much as you would if you trained for hypertrophy which is working between 60%-80% of your ORM doing 8-12 reps because youll have more time under tension on the muscles and thats what makes muscles grow bigger but not that much stronger....it all depends on the look youre going for...strength training is great for noobs so later on they can begin doing hypertrophy routines if they want that bodybuilding ripped look

    rule of thumb for me is
    1-5 reps....strength training 100%-80% of ORM...more for strength not a huge change in body compostion
    8-12 reps...hypertrophy training 60%-80% of ORM....more for that overall muscluar ripped look but not so much in strength
    15 and up...endurance training lower than 60% of ORM....best for athletes, especially runners

    Thank you!
  • NormInv
    NormInv Posts: 3,302 Member
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    Well the key is fatigue setting it. It could set in with doing 6 reps of 45 lb curls, or 18 reps of 10lbs. It will set it and it will be equally beneficial.

    and my point is, a person who gets fatigued doing 18 reps of 10 lbs has a one rep max of 19 lbs.

    While the person who does 6 reps of 45 lbs has a one rep max of 52 lbs.

    Now, to me, it seems patently obvious that one is stronger than the other.

    Maybe the problem here is that my goal is strength and fitness and a life of doing awesome stuff like rock climbing.

    also totally disagree with your one rep max math.
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
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    ok. I found a place that had a bit more information (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120430105358.htm)

    This is what the study did:
    the volunteers to complete sets of as many repetitions as possible with their assigned loads -- typically eight to 12 times per set at the heaviest weights and 25-30 times at the lowest weights.

    The three programs used in the combinations were:
    1.one set at 80% of the maximum load
    2.three sets at 80% of the maximum
    3.three sets at 30% of the maximum

    The study found that they all had the same "muscle gain" by MRI, but the heavy lifters gained more strength.

    Regarding your comment about how you don't follow my last post, do you know what a One Rep Max is? Have you ever tested yours?
  • NormInv
    NormInv Posts: 3,302 Member
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    ok. I found a place that had a bit more information (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120430105358.htm)

    This is what the study did:
    the volunteers to complete sets of as many repetitions as possible with their assigned loads -- typically eight to 12 times per set at the heaviest weights and 25-30 times at the lowest weights.

    The three programs used in the combinations were:
    1.one set at 80% of the maximum load
    2.three sets at 80% of the maximum
    3.three sets at 30% of the maximum

    The study found that they all had the same "muscle gain" by MRI, but the heavy lifters gained more strength.

    Regarding your comment about how you don't follow my last post, do you know what a One Rep Max is? Have you ever tested yours?

    I will no longer engage you in the debate because you are obviously aggravated at the prospect of someone else being able to rock climb. And you did not really read through all the OP and links. Goodbye!
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
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    Well the key is fatigue setting it. It could set in with doing 6 reps of 45 lb curls, or 18 reps of 10lbs. It will set it and it will be equally beneficial.

    and my point is, a person who gets fatigued doing 18 reps of 10 lbs has a one rep max of 19 lbs.

    While the person who does 6 reps of 45 lbs has a one rep max of 52 lbs.

    Now, to me, it seems patently obvious that one is stronger than the other.

    Maybe the problem here is that my goal is strength and fitness and a life of doing awesome stuff like rock climbing.

    also totally disagree with your one rep max math.

    I used this calculator: http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/orm.htm

    cuz my normal one won't go over 10 reps :) hehe http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/OneRepMax.html
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
    Options
    ok. I found a place that had a bit more information (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120430105358.htm)

    This is what the study did:
    the volunteers to complete sets of as many repetitions as possible with their assigned loads -- typically eight to 12 times per set at the heaviest weights and 25-30 times at the lowest weights.

    The three programs used in the combinations were:
    1.one set at 80% of the maximum load
    2.three sets at 80% of the maximum
    3.three sets at 30% of the maximum

    The study found that they all had the same "muscle gain" by MRI, but the heavy lifters gained more strength.

    Regarding your comment about how you don't follow my last post, do you know what a One Rep Max is? Have you ever tested yours?

    I will no longer engage you in the debate because you are obviously aggravated at the prospect of someone else being able to rock climb. And you did not really read through all the OP and links. Goodbye!

    ok. well that was weird.....

    I didn't watch the video because I can't. But I think the rest of what I'm saying is totally legit and honest and good points and not snarky at all. But I guess... whatever.... I won't lead for you on that 5.10b this summer then! :tongue:

    ETA:

    I guess OP got butt hurt that I found more information on the same study that said that they found the people lifting heavier gained more strength. But he isn't going to engage with me anymore, I guess. So anyone else wanting to know more about the study cited in the OP, here it is some more information:

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120430105358.htm
  • wolfpack77
    wolfpack77 Posts: 655
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    There is some truth to what the OP posted. Bodybuilders (including myself) train in wide range of weights and repetitions and that's because we're trying to stimulate more than one type of muscle fiber.

    Heavy weights and low reps (aka 5x5) build strength because you are stimulating type II fibers - that is "fast twitch" fibers. They're good for putting out lots of energy in short periods of time but have little endurance.

    Lower weights with higher reps stimulate type I fibers aka "slow twitch" fibers which are the exact opposite of the above. They consume energy more slowly for more continuous output, making them good for endurance.

    Bodybuilders want to get as big as they can, so they cant afford to train just one type of fiber. Both types need to be trained to maximize growth.

    So in summary, the best way to build a physique and well rounded strength is to train like a bodybuilder. Which is to say, you must alternate the way you train to maximize hypertrophy for all fibers.

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