Bad knee and lifting heavy

kcaffee1 · May 2013

I worked with a trainer for most of last semester in school, but with the change over into summer schedules, our time came to an end. So, to keep pushing, I've started working through the NRLFW, but there is a minor problem for me.

About half way through April, my trainer (and I) overloaded my knees, and caused one to be extremely flaky/sore/stiff all the time and the other one to talk back some of the time.

The first phase lists squats for the main lower body work out, of which I can SOMETIMES do full body weight squats with a knee brace on the worst knee. But only if the other knee isn't trying to flake out on me as well. However, I CAN do box squats without causing issues - again, so long as I remember to have the brace on.

With that back ground, the question I have is this: Will subbing the box squats for the regular squats be fine, or should I replace the squats with something else? OR should I add in leg curls in addition to the squats to ensure the hamstrings get worked as well?

I could do leg presses - which is what the trainer was having me do instead of squats - but the max I can press without over loading my knees is light enough I can barely feel the strain at 15 - 20 reps in the muscles, but the joints are having a field day of complaining.

Any suggestions, help, ideas?

Thanks in advance

vorgas · May 2013

Box squats are best bet.

That being said, when done properly, squats are all about the hips. Your knees should be plenty behind your toes. I have bad knees, ruined by years of skateboarding, and they aren't affected by squats.

I mean seriously, sometimes I step off a curb wrong, and it tweaks out. Squatting? No problem.

murphy612 · May 2013

I'm not an expert and I stay away from stuff that has that weird "un-natural" pain, but my experience with squats have helped my knee. I always struggled with a bad knee after several bad sprains. But as long as I do squats (and lunges) with proper form they have no impact on my knees. Now that all my leg muscles are incredibly strong I have NO issues with my knees ever. It's pretty awesome. So, I wouldn't give up the squats and continue to gain strength in hamstrings, glutes and quads and it will take the pressure off your knees.

Disclaimer: Always consult with a doctor, you wouldn't want to make your knees worse.

kcaffee1 · May 2013

Thanks for the replies. I want to keep the squats, which is why I subbed the box squats for the "real" ones. When I can, I do the sets under body weight - it just hurts like mad sometimes on the way up. And, the doctor right now isn't being helpful - chasing another problem with a one-track mind!

I know that as I strengthen the thighs most of the problems in the knee will disappear, and I can't WAIT for that day! I hate having to constantly watch how I step for anything, or turn around. I do NOT want a torn meniscus, and the resulting length of rehab that will take!

JTick · May 2013

Have you tried a wider squat stance? After knee surgery last fall, it hurts for me to a normal width squat stance. I take a wide stance, and my knee is much, much happier with me.

Capt_Apollo · May 2013

have you gone to see a doctor? what have they said about your knees?

rick_po · May 2013

I worked with a trainer for most of last semester in school, but with the change over into summer schedules, our time came to an end. So, to keep pushing, I've started working through the NRLFW, but there is a minor problem for me.

About half way through April, my trainer (and I) overloaded my knees, and caused one to be extremely flaky/sore/stiff all the time and the other one to talk back some of the time.

I'm just guessing, but I would be worried that your squat technique isn't very good. There are trainers out there who don't know how to do them, or get careless, or get distracted.

The free preview of "Starting Strength" on Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-3rd-Mark-Rippetoe/dp/0982522738/ref=sr_1_1

has a amazing detailed explanation of what a good squat looks like. It's long, but it's worth reading if you're having pain. It's also worth having a friend read it, and have her watch you, because it's possible you're doing something wrong without knowing it. I know I was rotating my knees inward on heavy squats and didn't know it until someone else noticed and told me.

I'm also a bad knee guy, and now that I'm doing squats right, my knees don't hurt at all. In fact, my knees give me less problems now than they have at any time in the past 30 years. I heart squats.

Binkie1955 · May 2013

Knees are real valuable. I'd be cautious getting advice from anyone but a medical professional. if you current guy isn't doing it for you, get a second opinion. I have one story about anatomy from a good friend of mine who is an orthopedic surgeon.

as he was studying anatomy, the professor spent one week on the design of the ankle. The students were blown away by the intricacy of the design of the human ankle. some of the students were so impressed they gave up atheism convinced God was the great designer.

the following week they studied the knee. the former atheists still believed in god but were now convinced he gave that job to his halfwit brother.

so be careful with knees. they're not well designed in the first place.

lithezebra · May 2013

One of my knees is giving me trouble, so I've cut out the squats and lunges for now, and I'm doing extra glute bridges and the quadruped exercise instead, because they don't seem to put any pressure on my knees at all. I'm going to see about deadlifts in about a week.

lithezebra · May 2013

I have one story about anatomy from a good friend of mine who is an orthopedic surgeon.

as he was studying anatomy, the professor spent one week on the design of the ankle. The students were blown away by the intricacy of the design of the human ankle. some of the students were so impressed they gave up atheism convinced God was the great designer.

the following week they studied the knee. the former atheists still believed in god but were now convinced he gave that job to his halfwit brother.

so be careful with knees. they're not well designed in the first place.

Avoid talking to proctologists about design. The whole prostate placement thing, with inflammation and cancer prone tissue located right around important things like the urethra, and nerves needed for urinary and sexual function, will shake your faith to the core.

kcaffee1 · May 2013

@rick_po - Thanks for the tip. I'll see if I can't get someone to watch and see if my form is off. My trainer and I parted ways the first day of finals, which I'm still not sure if I'm happy about or not. We were starting to have some other issues besides insistence on overloads. But, I'm sure I can catch someone who can critique the form.

@Binkie1955 - I know what you are talking about with anatomy. ::Grins:: I just finished with that class myself this past Spring Semester, and the professor was in love with the knee joint. So far, the doctor isn't much help - just keeps stressing for me to loose weight (duh!), but keeps wanting to run all kinds of other blood tests for other issues. (Which I KNOW are related to the weight, and I'm working on already.) I've talked to my chiropractor because this sprang up just as I was getting my lower back settled back into place due to sit ups (See above regarding the trainer and issues), but they can't feel anything misaligned. So, that leaves either straining one of the ligaments or a meniscus tear. And, because I AM a student, I can't really afford the MRI and doctor bills that will come with getting the proper diagnosis. So, for the moment, I baby it, keep the brace on when I'm going to push things, and mod the lifts so that I don't (hopefully) over stress it any more.

@lighezebra - thanks for the info on the substitutions. I'll look into them, and see how they can be worked in if my knee REALLY craps out on me.

Again, thanks for the helpful replies and tips for everyone who's responded. The more knowledge, the better armed to keep things from going WAY far south because of stupidity.

kcaffee1 · May 2013

Have you tried a wider squat stance? After knee surgery last fall, it hurts for me to a normal width squat stance. I take a wide stance, and my knee is much, much happier with me.

That may be why the box squats aren't as stressful on my knees. Since tomorrow is a weight day, I'll see if widening the stance on the body weight squats helps any before I look at adding any other weight.

SarahSmilesCA · May 2013

I have a torn ACL and Meniscus and I do the same program. I do not do squats, or dead lifts, or even jog right now at all, even with a wider stance, it really bums me out. But I do heavy leg presses. I don't squat or dead lift just to be on the safe side...let me tell you why...

That knee could give out without warning, that is what it did to me. I have never had knee issues (or I didn't know I had them), until I jumped up one day and the whole knee slipped. My orthopedic told me my ACL had been out for years and it was the new Menicus tear that made it slip..I can not believe what I have done with a torn ACL(hiking, running, Crossfit)...but a little tear in the meniscus made the whole thing fall apart because the ACL was already damaged and I did NOT know it. I was out of training for a YEAR. Gained 60 lbs because I was having a pity party and being an emotional mess, now I am back in the gym losing weight and getting strong so I can have ACL replacement and Meniscus trimmed...

Be certain you are strengthening the hip flexors, and all the muscles around that knee. I do it as heavy as my knee can stand it, but I also am using more machines instead of free weights because I get nervous anytime that knee has to support anything.

I am having surgery as soon as I lose 40 more lbs (goal by September) . I hate the idea of having surgery, but I hate the idea of never going hiking and running again a lot more...

murphy612 · May 2013

Like SarahSmilesCA said, you could use leg presses and various other machines to strengthen your legs before doing squats again, machines do have their place sometimes. Also, you mentioned it hurts your knees getting up from a squat which sounds like it could be some issues with your form. If you're not pushing through your heels and engaging your hamstrings and glutes it could be your knees compensating. Have someone check your form like someone else already suggested.

Good luck and I hope the knee gets better!!

kcaffee1 · May 2013

@ SarahSmiles - From what I've read, I don't THINK that I've gotten that bad, but I know it is also impossible to self-diagnose. Part of why I came asking questions before I pushed too hard into the program. I don't want to do something incredibly stupid and wind up laid up with a major injury I can't get treated. I've had a prior injury to the other knee, and when I make a comparison between the two, even when allowing for the "golden glow" of memory to interfere, this one isn't as bad. However, this time I'm asking more of the joint than I did before. I would consider leg presses, except that I have to limit them to such a low weight, even with the knee brace - even under body weight - so I'd rather work at the body weight level while I get the muscles built up enough to support the area again.

@ murphy612 - I'll be in the gym tomorrow (should have been today, but life stuck it's head up and threw plans out the window) and will see about getting some peer critique. I might have to use a small plate under my toes to help remind me to keep the weight back. That was one thing the trainer was working on, and I thought I had corrected. But, I might have fallen back into bad habits again.

SarahSmilesCA · May 2013

Then I would definitely agree with the box squat idea if you want to chance it...they are fairly safe, but have a spotter (of course).

I opted a week after my injury to take off the brace and I have not put it back on, and won't until my surgery. I taped my knee for about two months using k-tape, even that I stopped...my ortho just told me my leg was never going to get strong if I didn't take it off and make the muscles around the knee and hip work properly. I thought he was nuts, I had lost so much mobility and my knee slipped so often the first two months and all the muscles were atrophied and stiff on my left side. I thought I was going die trying to learn to walk and exercise without it...but I managed...very slowly...and I am really glad I did it because I walk normal now, but I know if I am not careful that knee can slip, but it hasn't for six months (thank God). It is a balance act between weak muscles and a possible slip. But I am glad I listened to my ortho and got rid of the brace.

The number one thing I can recommend for your knee is swimming and water exercise. Seriously helped me. I walk normal most of the time now, as long as I swim 30 mins daily.

kcaffee1 · May 2013

@ SarahSmiles - I'm a water baby, so on MOST days I'm not lifting I'm in the pool for laps. Been giving our life guard fits because I've been working on mastering the butterfly. The first few weeks attempts I think I wish I had on tape for America's Funniest Home videos!

As for when I'm lifting - the only time I put on the brace is when I'm doing squats, and once I'm done with that, the brace comes OFF. Even when I'm out and about walking, I don't wear it. And, I think I may go ahead and toss the leg curls and extensions back into the mix, because those I can do without the brace, and they'll help with strengthening the muscles around the joint.

Thanks a ton for your story - at least now I've got a tentative benchmark to work from, and idea of what to look for with potential issues.

SGSmallman · May 2013

I've torn my ACL had reconstruction and i squat no problems it's all about good form and knowing your limits while pushing them sensibly

ninerbuff · May 2013

have you gone to see a doctor? what have they said about your knees?

THIS. If there's an actual problem with them, that should be addressed first and not compensate by doing exercises that make it hurt less.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

kluedesigns · May 2013

I suffer from knee issues all the time (an old injury from when i was 26). i routinely have to compensate and rehab my knee because of tweaking.

i've found the best thing for my knee when doing squats while tweaked is a suspension trainer ( TRX - Ripped 60 -etc) you're able to unload some of your body weight into the suspension straps while still achieving a good form squat.

once you're able to get a decent range of motion back into your knee then you should do stretching yoga and foam rolling to help increase the range of motion and to help the knee heal.

Bad knee and lifting heavy

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