Trying to choose a strength routine...need advice!!!
DixieDarlin1987
Posts: 553 Member
Hey y'all! I guess I'm going to call myself an "advanced beginner" to the whole weight lifting thing. I was a highschool and college volleyball player and I spent several years in the gym, doing mostly compound lifts and plyo work. At that time, I ate, slept and breathed volleyball and anything else that would improve my performance on the court. Little did I know that years after my volleyball days, I would want to get back into lifting, but this time with the goal of getting ripped (Not freaky steriod ripped, but as big as I can naturally get) So, yes I do have a pretty good idea of form and all that but it has been a long time. I am currently doing P90x and loving it, but I'm starting to look into what I want to do next. Definitely weights, I know that much. My goals are simple at this point:
1) Don't care about the scale, just want to drop my body fat % as much as possible.
2) I want to increase my lean muscle mass....ALOT! (This Mama is ready to get her swole on:laugh: )
I am kinda unique in that I am a 6'4", 190lb female. I know 190 seems kinda high, even for my height, but I'm in decent shape, and my lowest adult weight (when I was in incredible shape) was 180. So, truly....I believe the scale is a silly little liar. I am trying to decide which of these programs will give me the resuls I'm looking for... New Rules of Lifting for Women, Stronglifts 5x5, and Starting Strength. Anyone who has any experience with any of these programs, please give me your honest opinion, I'd also love to see pics if you have them, and any other advice is welcome (supplements, cardio, etc.)!
Thanks y'all!!!
1) Don't care about the scale, just want to drop my body fat % as much as possible.
2) I want to increase my lean muscle mass....ALOT! (This Mama is ready to get her swole on:laugh: )
I am kinda unique in that I am a 6'4", 190lb female. I know 190 seems kinda high, even for my height, but I'm in decent shape, and my lowest adult weight (when I was in incredible shape) was 180. So, truly....I believe the scale is a silly little liar. I am trying to decide which of these programs will give me the resuls I'm looking for... New Rules of Lifting for Women, Stronglifts 5x5, and Starting Strength. Anyone who has any experience with any of these programs, please give me your honest opinion, I'd also love to see pics if you have them, and any other advice is welcome (supplements, cardio, etc.)!
Thanks y'all!!!
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Start with a strength building program to get a good foundation. I suggest reading Starting Strength even if you go with another program. Do this for at least 90 days. Once you have your form down, and a good basis for strength, reevaluate your goals.0
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Start with a strength building program to get a good foundation. I suggest reading Starting Strength even if you go with another program. Do this for at least 90 days. Once you have your form down, and a good basis for strength, reevaluate your goals.
I do Stronglifts 5x5, but this is an excellent suggestion. The knowledge that you would gain from Starting Strength is invaluable.0 -
I also advocate any basic barbell beginner workout - starting strength or stronglifts whatever you want
but just be aware that at your height most movements especially barbell squats and deadlifts will be awkward for you - and you will have to kind of cater your form to fit them, you may find that a conventional deadlift wont work for you but a sumo will, you may also find that you may have to alter your squat stance quite a bit to hit good depth
just more or less dont get frustrated, play around till you get to where they are comfortable0 -
If you are looking into the strength department I always go with low volume and a lot of weight. Such as a 5x5 plan.
Five reps for five sets. I highly recommend a formula that has helped me over the years in the gym and that is using a mixture of the two with high volume and low volume. First sets will be low volume with heavy weight such as 5x5 deadlifts and then 5x12 pull-ups or lat-pull-downs. You get the picture.
Nutrition wise always high carbs on training days unless you want to feel like crap and go low carb every day and then high protein and low fat meals. Keep away from processed foods obviously because these will make you sluggish and try to go whole foods. Caffeine (as in pre-workouts) are good for getting through those heavy weight sessions although your body might become reliant on them so try and cycle them off bi-weekly to insure it does not. Also timing is a must when eating. Do not eat high calorie and carbed foods before bed for obvious reasons. I always eat the largest meal in the morning that way throughout the day it can easily be burned off.
Breakfast: Eat like a king
Lunch: A queen
Dinner: A peasant
Always have a cheat day during the week. For example, I have a huge sweet tooth so I always cheat on Sundays to get it out of my system for the week. After that I eat clean the rest of the week. Some people think that skipping cheat meal days is okay. Although I would not recommend it because I have noticed in the past that if you do something like this you're more likely to binge on another day consuming more calories or sugar then your body needs thus screwing up your diet all together.0 -
Wow, lots of great advice. Thanks y'all. I think I've decided to go with stronglifts 5x5. So, can anyone tell me if they do cardio while doing stronglifts? If so, how often? And right now I'm eating 1500-1700 calories. More? Less? Thanks!0
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I flamed out on Starting Strength (which is very similar to Stronglifts) twice by doing too much cardio on off days. I had no problem for the first couple months, my lifts kept going up, and I was still bicycling and doing random cardio machines. But when the lifts started to get heavy, it felt like my whole body wanted to shut down. I got weaker on my lifts and I couldn't complete the same cardio workouts I'd been doing before. Looking back, I'm guessing I was over-training, or under-resting, or under-eating, or a combination of all three. I felt so crummy I gave up all exercise for almost a year.
And then, just to prove I'm pig-headed, I did the same thing a second time in almost exactly the same way.
The next time I tried to get back in shape, I did a little more homework. I did a 5x5 program like Stronglifts, but I kept my cardio workouts very low-intensity. Walking, leisure bicycling, easy settings on the elliptical. And I didn't flame out.
If I had to do it again, I would do slightly higher intensity cardio on off days and listen more carefully to what my body was trying to tell me. When I'd start feeling over-trained, I'd cut my cardio back.
I would think you'd need to add some calories and protein to your diet. I'm not sure how much, though.0 -
I think Starting Strength is superior to Stronglifts 5x5 for a few reasons. One, I think 25 reps of work set weight is a lot for a novice. Two, Mark Rippetoe, the creator of Starting Strength has an immense amount of experience and knowledge and along with Bill Starr, really made this type of linear progression program a main component of novice strength training. The guy who put out SL 5x5, Medhi I believe, just seems like a marketing guy with not much know how. Not to mention the Starting Strength book is very detailed and explains why you're doing the lifts and why you're doing them that way.
Be ready to Squat a lot with both of them. That's personally one thing I had an issue with being so overweight.
As for NROL4W. I think it's "meh". The program seems way too complicated for a beginner, with a bunch of "phases." And frankly I think the only reason it's gotten popular is because it has "For Women" in the title.0 -
My main criticism of the programs you mention is that they don't offer a lot of variety or guidance in assistance/accessory exercises or stretching/mobility work, nor do they really teach you how to design your own programs to achieve your personal goals.
I think they're fine for people who just want to get a little stronger and preserve their LBM when dieting. However, you sound pretty ambitious and dedicated and I think you would benefit more from some actual coaching if you can manage it.
If not, Starting Strength is by far the best IMO.
ETA: I'm lifting 2 days a week, and training for a 10k 3 days a week. I think cardio and strength training are complementary and you shouldn't be afraid to do both in the same week.0 -
My main criticism of the programs you mention is that they don't offer a lot of variety or guidance in assistance/accessory exercises or stretching/mobility work, nor do they really teach you how to design your own programs to achieve your personal goals.
I think they're fine for people who just want to get a little stronger and preserve their LBM when dieting. However, you sound pretty ambitious and dedicated and I think you would benefit more from some actual coaching if you can manage it.
If not, Starting Strength is by far the best IMO.
I thought the main understanding has always been novices don't need many accessory lifts. As far a mobility, I agree, but a strength coach is about strength. I've heard mobilitywod.com is a good site for mobility work.0 -
My main criticism of the programs you mention is that they don't offer a lot of variety or guidance in assistance/accessory exercises or stretching/mobility work, nor do they really teach you how to design your own programs to achieve your personal goals.
I think they're fine for people who just want to get a little stronger and preserve their LBM when dieting. However, you sound pretty ambitious and dedicated and I think you would benefit more from some actual coaching if you can manage it.
If not, Starting Strength is by far the best IMO.
I thought the main understanding has always been novices don't need many accessory lifts. As far a mobility, I agree, but a strength coach is about strength. I've heard mobilitywod.com is a good site for mobility work.
Yeah, I don't know how other coaches do it, but I've never done a lift without going through a range of mobility exercises.
I don't think beginners need accessory exercises, I was operating under the assumption that the OP doesn't intend on quitting while she's still a beginner. She sounds pretty dedicated.0 -
My main criticism of the programs you mention is that they don't offer a lot of variety or guidance in assistance/accessory exercises or stretching/mobility work, nor do they really teach you how to design your own programs to achieve your personal goals.
I think they're fine for people who just want to get a little stronger and preserve their LBM when dieting. However, you sound pretty ambitious and dedicated and I think you would benefit more from some actual coaching if you can manage it.
If not, Starting Strength is by far the best IMO.
I thought the main understanding has always been novices don't need many accessory lifts. As far a mobility, I agree, but a strength coach is about strength. I've heard mobilitywod.com is a good site for mobility work.
Yeah, I don't know how other coaches do it, but I've never done a lift without going through a range of mobility exercises.
I don't think beginners need accessory exercises, I was operating under the assumption that the OP doesn't intend on quitting while she's still a beginner. She sounds pretty dedicated.
That's when you switch programs. In SS, it's said that once you start stalling repeatedly on all of the lifts you either move onto the Advanced Novice program (replaces Back Squats with Front Squats on Wednesdays and lets you do a bit more accessory work) or you move onto an intermediate program (Wendler's 5/3/1, Texas Method, etc.).0 -
I just think that looking into actual coaching should be an option that's on the table, that's all. I think having a live person is superior to a book, especially for someone who's really interested in the sport and not just preserving LBM, for the reasons I mentioned.0
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I just think that looking into actual coaching should be an option that's on the table, that's all. I think having a live person is superior to a book, especially for someone who's really interested in the sport and not just preserving LBM, for the reasons I mentioned.
Good point. It's just not cost efficient. However, there is a directory of coaches who have been Starting Strength certified actually.
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/coaching#dir0 -
I also advocate any basic barbell beginner workout - starting strength or stronglifts whatever you want
but just be aware that at your height most movements especially barbell squats and deadlifts will be awkward for you - and you will have to kind of cater your form to fit them, you may find that a conventional deadlift wont work for you but a sumo will, you may also find that you may have to alter your squat stance quite a bit to hit good depth
just more or less dont get frustrated, play around till you get to where they are comfortable
This is good advice. Though the issues come not so much from height per se, but the ratio of limbs to torso (and femur to tib/fib). Sumo deadlifts would probably be a better option than conventional deadlifts (or better yet - trap bar deads, if you're lucky enough to have access to one).
For the squat, I'd recommend high-bar with a slightly wider stance and toes pointed out slightly.
From your profile pic, you have a long torso as well as long limbs, so you may not have too much of a problem compared to someone with long limbs and short torso.
PS: Sometimes the MFP ad choice is unintentionally hilarious
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Y'all are awesome! My plan right now is to use the basics to build strength, build muscle, and drop the body fat % a little more (it's already within healthy range). Once I've done that for a while, I'd like to think about changing things up and adding accessory lifts. I'm going to buy Starting Strength and read it....I may go that route. My plan for cardio right now is to jog 3-4 miles twice a week. I don't think that should overdo it because I am not a fast jogger, just plodding along, but I enjoy my runs (the only time i really have to clear my head). Right now I've got my macros set at 50% protein, 30% carbs and 20% fat, but I'll probably adjust them to 40/40/20 and up my calories a bit. I'm even considering upping them to maintenance, maybe?0
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I also advocate any basic barbell beginner workout - starting strength or stronglifts whatever you want
but just be aware that at your height most movements especially barbell squats and deadlifts will be awkward for you - and you will have to kind of cater your form to fit them, you may find that a conventional deadlift wont work for you but a sumo will, you may also find that you may have to alter your squat stance quite a bit to hit good depth
just more or less dont get frustrated, play around till you get to where they are comfortable
This is good advice. Though the issues come not so much from height per se, but the ratio of limbs to torso (and femur to tib/fib). Sumo deadlifts would probably be a better option than conventional deadlifts (or better yet - trap bar deads, if you're lucky enough to have access to one).
For the squat, I'd recommend high-bar with a slightly wider stance and toes pointed out slightly.
From your profile pic, you have a long torso as well as long limbs, so you may not have too much of a problem compared to someone with long limbs and short torso.
PS: Sometimes the MFP ad choice is unintentionally hilarious
Hahaha! That is too funny! And you're right, I am pretty proportionate....tall everywhere lol! I don't remember having any particular trouble in the past with my lifts, but it was years ago so we shall see0 -
check out strstd.com it is a website meant to give you your numbers for jim wendlers 5/3/1 strength training program.
the program is pretty simple: you lift four days a week, each day is centered around one major barbell lift: overhead press, dead lift, bench press, and squat. you warm up with a few light weights and then go for big weights pushing your max a little bit each time. then you go for assistance exercises. his program is designed to be as intense or as simple as you want.
do this for three weeks, then you have a deload week where you do light weights, and allow yourself a week to recover. then you start a new cycle the following week with new numbers based on your maxes from before.
wendler also says that on a few of your off days, you should be doing some form of cardio. he's a fan of hill sprints, or pushing a weighted prowler sled, but anything will do. swim, bike, stair machine, elliptical, whatever.
wendler designed this program because while he had huge numbers in weight lifting, he would get winded bending over to tie his shoes. so he wanted to be able to have big lifts, and have the cardio endurance and speed as well.0 -
Your two goals of dropping body fat % and increasing mass at the same time, while not impossible, may not be optimal. I personally would focus on one at a time. Decreasing body fat significantly, requires a caloric deficit. Increasing LBM significantly requires a surplus. Over time when people try to accomplish both they end up spinning their wheels so to speak. I personally would eat at maintenance at least while doing a strength based program, especially if you're going to be doing multiple cardio sessions weekly. When your strength gains start to plateau you can always make a slight increase to your calories. On the other hand if you feel that you are putting on too much body fat in relation to your mass gains, you can start cutting while trying to keep your strength numbers up as high as possible. Of course that's just my opinion
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texas has got a point. you can do both in the beginning, as a newbie. but in a few months it'll be one or the other.... that is when we enter the whole 'bulk-cut' routine.
enjoy your newbie gains for the next few months. you'll find that as a former athlete you are going to make some great strides. but come the fall you'll probably need to tweak your nutrition and/or routine.0 -
I don't do any regular cardio other than running after my two boys. I do the SL5x5 and eat about 1700 daily. My goals for now are keeping muscle and losing fat so I am still at a moderate deficit.Wow, lots of great advice. Thanks y'all. I think I've decided to go with stronglifts 5x5. So, can anyone tell me if they do cardio while doing stronglifts? If so, how often? And right now I'm eating 1500-1700 calories. More? Less? Thanks!0 -
Alright, now we're talkin'! This is the kind of stuff I need to know about, nutrition and muscle gaining/fat loss. This is the stuff I didn't do in highschool and college, just because my physique wasn't the focus of my workouts. I don't know this stuff. So, in order to build muscle, I at least need to eat maintenance, if not at a slight surplus? And doing this with "good for you food" will not cause me to gain fat, only lean muscle? And then after a period of muscle gain, you adjust your diet to cut fat, while preserving lean body mass, and then you do it all again to add more muscle? I know y'all mentioned in the beginning I would probably be able to cut body fat and still make gains...so I should "cut" first and then after a couple of months, I should "bulk"? Also, I've been researching protein powders and such and I ran across one called Athlete's Food. It's more like a meal replacement than just a protein powder...supposedly comparable to Shakeology. Anybody have any experience with this powder or any other one? Should I use one of the ones formulated for bulking, whenever I decide to do that? I want a good quality supplement, but it can't be through the rood expensive either. Thanks so much y'all!0
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unfortunately, whether you eat at a deficit, maintenance, or a surplus, you can't dictate if you'll lose/gain fat or muscle. most people that do this will bulk over the winter, and cut in the spring. they'll put on a few pounds (yes even of fat), and then when they cut back calories, and do more cardio and some lighter weights, they'll trim the fat, but also lose a little muscle.
if i were you, i'd take the opportunity to learn and adjust what works for you over the next few months. experiment. tweak your routine and see what happens after 3-4 weeks. right now, for you to be thinking about cutting and bulking is putting the carriage in front of the horse, in my opinion. work out, and enjoy experimenting. pick up some books. you sound like you have a good base knowledge, so i'd jump right in with jim wendlers 5/3/1 and/or mark rippatoe's starting strength.
others will chime in with their opinions on protein powders and BCAA, but i like my target brand PP.0 -
Alright, now we're talkin'! This is the kind of stuff I need to know about, nutrition and muscle gaining/fat loss. This is the stuff I didn't do in highschool and college, just because my physique wasn't the focus of my workouts. I don't know this stuff. So, in order to build muscle, I at least need to eat maintenance, if not at a slight surplus? And doing this with "good for you food" will not cause me to gain fat, only lean muscle? And then after a period of muscle gain, you adjust your diet to cut fat, while preserving lean body mass, and then you do it all again to add more muscle? I know y'all mentioned in the beginning I would probably be able to cut body fat and still make gains...so I should "cut" first and then after a couple of months, I should "bulk"? Also, I've been researching protein powders and such and I ran across one called Athlete's Food. It's more like a meal replacement than just a protein powder...supposedly comparable to Shakeology. Anybody have any experience with this powder or any other one? Should I use one of the ones formulated for bulking, whenever I decide to do that? I want a good quality supplement, but it can't be through the rood expensive either. Thanks so much y'all!
Eating too much of any food; "clean/dirty" "good/bad" whatever label people wish to put on it, will result in weight gain. I recommend eating at maintenance for a few weeks while getting started on your new strength program. After you get acclimated to the program & feel comfortable with it, I would go ahead and add say 10% to your daily calorie intake. This should keep your weight gain slow and minimize fat gain although some will likely be fat. If you start gaining at a rate that you aren't comfortable with you can always make adjustments and lower your surplus.
My take on protein powders probably don't fit in with the norm. If you have a set daily protein goal of just say 1gram/lb of body weight & you can hit that number through your normal food intake, then I don't see the need for protein powders. That being said I do personally use whey daily, but I'm bulking right now and find it more of a convenience thing to help me hit my daily goal than a must.0 -
You can get away with eating a small deficit for a little while and still have some small gains, but your initial phase of weightlifting will not be very heavy anyway. For the first few weeks you should focus on form, lifting PVC pipes and the bar and doing high reps and then ease progressively into lower rep sets with higher weights. This would be a good time to eat at a deficit and cut some more fat before you really start getting into the heavy lifting/muscle building phase. After a month or so you can start approaching your max and making significant gains, and that would be a good time to up your calories, maybe 150-250 cals/day over maintenance or so should do it.
As far as macros, what I do is I get 1g protein per pound of LBM and 0.35g fat per pound. For me that works out to a ratio of 50/25/25.
A woman can gain about a pound of muscle per month under optimal conditions. Anything else will be stored fat, but you can just cut it later. It doesn't matter whether your calories come from "clean" foods or not.0 -
Ok, so I've been doing a WHOLE LOT of reading the last few days on all kinds of stuff related to weight training. optimal diet, etc. There is just soooo much information and so many options....I'm so excited to get started! So, after all of that reading...the plan it still to begin with the 5x5 program (however I am going to order the starting strength book to read as well) and follow it until I plateau...from there I don't know yet, probably some kind of 3x5 program. Nutrition wise, I'm planning to eat maintenence on a 40/40/20 macro and just not eat my exercise calories back...let that be my deficit. As far as cardio....I'm going to cut my jogs back to once a week. I read alot about steady state cardio being counterproductive when trying to gain muscle. I want to maintain where I'm at on my runs (I started running with police academy in mind- currently going through the hiring process at my Sheriff's Office and figured when I go to the academy it would be best if I didn't feel like I was dying after running for 2 minutes. Now I can run for 30+ and actually enjoy it lol), but don't want to lose muscle. Going to start doing HIIT a couple of days a week I think. Can anyone tell me how long and often I should do hit to cut the rest of this fat for the summer? Is twice a week for 15-20 minutes and 1 longer run enough? Oh and also, I was going over all this stuff with my hubby, who used to be a powerlifter many years ago, and he mentioned "negatives" when you reach failure, rather than deloading after 3 consecutive failed attempts. Thoughts on this?0
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