Genes take charge and diets fall by wayside.

Options
I was reading an article from the NY times, and found it very interesting. So the TL:DR version basically states that obesity and thinness are inherent and driven by genes and unless you have will power and can handle being in that slight state of starvation to maintain that loss weight gain is inevitable. “Those who doubt the power of basic drives, however, might note that although one can hold one’s breath, this conscious act is soon overcome by the compulsion to breathe,” Dr. Friedman wrote. “The feeling of hunger is intense and, if not as potent as the drive to breathe, is probably no less powerful than the drive to drink when one is thirsty. This is the feeling the obese must resist after they have lost a significant amount of weight.” Pretty depressing...what are your thoughts.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/health/08fat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

May 8, 2007
Genes Take Charge, and Diets Fall by the Wayside

By GINA KOLATA
Correction Appended

It was 1959. Jules Hirsch, a research physician at Rockefeller University, had gotten curious about weight loss in the obese. He was about to start a simple experiment that would change forever the way scientists think about fat.

Obese people, he knew, had huge fat cells, stuffed with glistening yellow fat. What happened to those cells when people lost weight, he wondered. Did they shrink or did they go away? He decided to find out.

It seemed straightforward. Dr. Hirsch found eight people who had been fat since childhood or adolescence and who agreed to live at the Rockefeller University Hospital for eight months while scientists would control their diets, make them lose weight and then examine their fat cells.

The study was rigorous and demanding. It began with an agonizing four weeks of a maintenance diet that assessed the subjects’ metabolism and caloric needs. Then the diet began. The only food permitted was a liquid formula providing 600 calories a day, a regimen that guaranteed they would lose weight. Finally, the subjects spent another four weeks on a diet that maintained them at their new weights, 100 pounds lower than their initial weights, on average.

Dr. Hirsch answered his original question — the subjects’ fat cells had shrunk and were now normal in size. And everyone, including Dr. Hirsch, assumed that the subjects would leave the hospital permanently thinner.

That did not happen. Instead, Dr. Hirsch says, “they all regained.” He was horrified. The study subjects certainly wanted to be thin, so what went wrong? Maybe, he thought, they had some deep-seated psychological need to be fat.

So Dr. Hirsch and his colleagues, including Dr. Rudolph L. Leibel, who is now at Columbia University, repeated the experiment and repeated it again. Every time the result was the same. The weight, so painstakingly lost, came right back. But since this was a research study, the investigators were also measuring metabolic changes, psychiatric conditions, body temperature and pulse. And that led them to a surprising conclusion: fat people who lost large amounts of weight might look like someone who was never fat, but they were very different. In fact, by every metabolic measurement, they seemed like people who were starving.

Before the diet began, the fat subjects’ metabolism was normal — the number of calories burned per square meter of body surface was no different from that of people who had never been fat. But when they lost weight, they were burning as much as 24 percent fewer calories per square meter of their surface area than the calories consumed by those who were naturally thin.

The Rockefeller subjects also had a psychiatric syndrome, called semi-starvation neurosis, which had been noticed before in people of normal weight who had been starved. They dreamed of food, they fantasized about food or about breaking their diet. They were anxious and depressed; some had thoughts of suicide. They secreted food in their rooms. And they binged.

The Rockefeller researchers explained their observations in one of their papers: “It is entirely possible that weight reduction, instead of resulting in a normal state for obese patients, results in an abnormal state resembling that of starved nonobese individuals.”

Eventually, more than 50 people lived at the hospital and lost weight, and every one had physical and psychological signs of starvation. There were a very few who did not get fat again, but they made staying thin their life’s work, becoming Weight Watchers lecturers, for example, and, always, counting calories and maintaining themselves in a permanent state of starvation.

“Did those who stayed thin simply have more willpower?” Dr. Hirsch asked. “In a funny way, they did.”

One way to interpret Dr. Hirsch and Dr. Leibel’s studies would be to propose that once a person got fat, the body would adjust, making it hopeless to lose weight and keep it off. The issue was important, because if getting fat was the problem, there might be a solution to the obesity epidemic: convince people that any weight gain was a step toward an irreversible condition that they most definitely did not want to have.

But another group of studies showed that that hypothesis, too, was wrong.

It began with studies that were the inspiration of Dr. Ethan Sims at the University of Vermont, who asked what would happen if thin people who had never had a weight problem deliberately got fat.

His subjects were prisoners at a nearby state prison who volunteered to gain weight. With great difficulty, they succeeded, increasing their weight by 20 percent to 25 percent. But it took them four to six months, eating as much as they could every day. Some consumed 10,000 calories a day, an amount so incredible that it would be hard to believe, were it not for the fact that there were attendants present at each meal who dutifully recorded everything the men ate.

Once the men were fat, their metabolisms increased by 50 percent. They needed more than 2,700 calories per square meter of their body surface to stay fat but needed just 1,800 calories per square meter to maintain their normal weight.

When the study ended, the prisoners had no trouble losing weight. Within months, they were back to normal and effortlessly stayed there.

The implications were clear. There is a reason that fat people cannot stay thin after they diet and that thin people cannot stay fat when they force themselves to gain weight. The body’s metabolism speeds up or slows down to keep weight within a narrow range. Gain weight and the metabolism can as much as double; lose weight and it can slow to half its original speed.

That, of course, was contrary to what every scientist had thought, and Dr. Sims knew it, as did Dr. Hirsch.

The message never really got out to the nation’s dieters, but a few research scientists were intrigued and asked the next question about body weight: Is body weight inherited, or is obesity more of an inadvertent, almost unconscious response to a society where food is cheap, abundant and tempting? An extra 100 calories a day will pile on 10 pounds in a year, public health messages often say. In five years, that is 50 pounds.

The assumption was that environment determined weight, but Dr. Albert Stunkard of the University of Pennsylvania wondered if that was true and, if so, to what extent. It was the early 1980s, long before obesity became what one social scientist called a moral panic, but a time when those questions of nature versus nurture were very much on Dr. Stunkard’s mind.

He found the perfect tool for investigating the nature-nurture question — a Danish registry of adoptees developed to understand whether schizophrenia was inherited. It included meticulous medical records of every Danish adoption between 1927 and 1947, including the names of the adoptees’ biological parents, and the heights and weights of the adoptees, their biological parents and their adoptive parents.

Dr. Stunkard ended up with 540 adults whose average age was 40. They had been adopted when they were very young — 55 percent had been adopted in the first month of life and 90 percent were adopted in the first year of life. His conclusions, published in The New England Journal of Medicine in 1986, were unequivocal. The adoptees were as fat as their biological parents, and how fat they were had no relation to how fat their adoptive parents were.

The scientists summarized it in their paper: “The two major findings of this study were that there was a clear relation between the body-mass index of biologic parents and the weight class of adoptees, suggesting that genetic influences are important determinants of body fatness; and that there was no relation between the body-mass index of adoptive parents and the weight class of adoptees, suggesting that childhood family environment alone has little or no effect.”

In other words, being fat was an inherited condition.

Dr. Stunkard also pointed out the implications: “Current efforts to prevent obesity are directed toward all children (and their parents) almost indiscriminately. Yet if family environment alone has no role in obesity, efforts now directed toward persons with little genetic risk of the disorder could be refocused on the smaller number who are more vulnerable. Such persons can already be identified with some assurance: 80 percent of the offspring of two obese parents become obese, as compared with no more than 14 percent of the offspring of two parents of normal weight.”

A few years later, in 1990, Dr. Stunkard published another study in The New England Journal of Medicine, using another classic method of geneticists: investigating twins. This time, he used the Swedish Twin Registry, studying its 93 pairs of identical twins who were reared apart, 154 pairs of identical twins who were reared together, 218 pairs of fraternal twins who were reared apart, and 208 pairs of fraternal twins who were reared together.

The identical twins had nearly identical body mass indexes, whether they had been reared apart or together. There was more variation in the body mass indexes of the fraternal twins, who, like any siblings, share some, but not all, genes.

The researchers concluded that 70 percent of the variation in peoples’ weights may be accounted for by inheritance, a figure that means that weight is more strongly inherited than nearly any other condition, including mental illness, breast cancer or heart disease.

The results did not mean that people are completely helpless to control their weight, Dr. Stunkard said. But, he said, it did mean that those who tend to be fat will have to constantly battle their genetic inheritance if they want to reach and maintain a significantly lower weight.

The findings also provided evidence for a phenomenon that scientists like Dr. Hirsch and Dr. Leibel were certain was true — each person has a comfortable weight range to which the body gravitates. The range might span 10 or 20 pounds: someone might be able to weigh 120 to 140 pounds without too much effort. Going much above or much below the natural weight range is difficult, however; the body resists by increasing or decreasing the appetite and changing the metabolism to push the weight back to the range it seeks.

The message is so at odds with the popular conception of weight loss — the mantra that all a person has to do is eat less and exercise more — that Dr. Jeffrey Friedman, an obesity researcher at the Rockefeller University, tried to come up with an analogy that would convey what science has found about the powerful biological controls over body weight.

He published it in the journal Science in 2003 and still cites it:

“Those who doubt the power of basic drives, however, might note that although one can hold one’s breath, this conscious act is soon overcome by the compulsion to breathe,” Dr. Friedman wrote. “The feeling of hunger is intense and, if not as potent as the drive to breathe, is probably no less powerful than the drive to drink when one is thirsty. This is the feeling the obese must resist after they have lost a significant amount of weight.”
«1

Replies

  • 55in13
    55in13 Posts: 1,091 Member
    Options
    I think a lot of that is sensationalized. There is an effect in many people but not most of us.

    Here is a more recent interview with the doctor that did much of that research:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/10/health/nutrition/q-and-a-are-high-protein-low-carb-diets-effective.html

    In that article, he is dismissing the myth about calories from different sources affecting weight differently. Anyway, he also touches on genetics:
    Q. Why is it so hard for people to lose weight?

    A. What your body does is to sense the amount of energy it has available for emergencies and for daily use. The stored energy is the total amount of adipose tissue in your body. We now know that there are jillions of hormones that are always measuring the amount of fat you have. Your body guides you to eat more or less because of this sensing mechanism.

    Q. But if we have such a sensing mechanism, why are people fatter now than they used to be?

    A.This wonderful sensing mechanism involves genetics and environmental factors, and it gets set early in life. It is not clear how much of the setting is done before birth and how much is done by food or other influences early in life. There are many possibilities, but we just don’t know.
    Pay special attention to the last 4 words - from the guy who did that research and has had decades to look back on it and do further research - "we just don't know".
  • pluckabee
    pluckabee Posts: 346 Member
    Options
    I read a study about this, and while it is true that someone who is fat and then gets thin burns less calories than someone the same weight who was never fat, it isn't necessarily permanent AND you can make steps to mitigate the reduction to your bmr.

    on average. that total loss of bmr (from your starting weight bmr) will be 15*kg lost. So I figured out for me, I would burn about 200 less calories than someone who is already at my goal weight would burn, which really isn't that much. I can live with that.

    If you lose weight through diet alone, your bmr at the end will be much lower, but if you lose weight through a combination of diet and exercise, you will be much closer to a normal BMR. Losing faster also hurts you in the long run

    Please no one freak out about this. On average it isn't bad as it sounds and it doesn't have to be that bad. Individuals actually vary a lot with some people having higher bmrs than predicted

    I'd hate for anyone to get bummed out and just stop trying based on this one article. The study only included 1 type of diet, very low calorie, which very few people on mfp actually do.
  • 55in13
    55in13 Posts: 1,091 Member
    Options
    And another tidbit from your original article:
    Dr. Hirsch found eight people who had been fat since childhood or adolescence and who agreed to live at the Rockefeller University Hospital for eight months while scientists would control their diets, make them lose weight and then examine their fat cells.
    He found 8 people with obesity that was nearly life long that were willing to commit to an 8 month hospital stay. This is not a cross section of the general population and it is a really small sample size. I do believe there are some obese people out there who really can't control it. I read at article at the Mayo site where a doctor said that less than 2% of his obese patients seemed to have such a disorder, though about 40% indicated they thought they had a medical reason for their obesity. IMO, it is good legitimate information but applies to very few of us. Lots of people use it as an excuse though.
  • action_figure
    action_figure Posts: 511 Member
    Options
    I agree that his sample group: people who were willing and able to commit to an lengthy inpatient stay may have skewed his data.
  • knittnponder
    knittnponder Posts: 1,954 Member
    Options
    They fed them a liquid diet of 600 calories a day and they were surprised that the patients exhibited mental and physical signs of starvation?
  • clareyoung80
    clareyoung80 Posts: 177 Member
    Options
    Umph...I find it hard to trust any of these experiments that had people on crazy 'liquid diets of 600 a day', which quite a few of them seem to (unless I've just read this one before...)

    There's a show on UK TV at the moment called Fat Family Tree http://www.channel4.com/programmes/fat-family-tree/episode-guide/series-1/episode-1 and that's pretty much a similar thing. Except they pointed out to the people that, yes, these things will affect you but as long as you keep that in mind you'll be fine.

    Not YOU ARE DOOMED TO FAIL, but rather "here are some things you might want to be aware of".
  • momzeeee
    momzeeee Posts: 475 Member
    Options
    I've read something similar in the book, Rethinking Thin, by Gina Kolata. She goes in depth about studies that have been done with genetics and obesity, especially how adopted children will be thin/overweight like their genetic parents, despite eating the same foods at the adopted family ate and if they were thin/overweight.

    I think obesity is a very complex subject that's just in the infant stages of research.
  • jwdieter
    jwdieter Posts: 2,582 Member
    Options
    Glass half full: they were able to lose 3 lbs/week for 8 months by adhering to a strict diet.
  • KenosFeoh
    KenosFeoh Posts: 1,837 Member
    Options
    Well that was depressing; thanks a lot.
  • littlebrownbat3
    littlebrownbat3 Posts: 54 Member
    Options
    I think part of the problem is how we classify overweight. I think the BMI is outdated, and I think that we (as a culture, maybe not here) jump on "thinner is healthier." To a point, yes, thinner can be better for heart and joint health, but too thin is counter productive. I don't know how he was defining obese, and if these people were classified as overweight but healthy. If there is a weight you are healthiest at, but isn't in the normal ideal, that's fine. I am healthiest between 145 and 150, but a lot of people my height consider themselves fat, and try to go lower. I know I have lots of muscle mass, and am cool with that.

    If there is an optimum healthy weight for us, I think we are genetically stuck there. We can overdo it with junk food or whatever, but some of us are built to be bigger, some smaller. Part of being healthy is being the optimal weight for you. And sometimes, that is over the classical definition.
  • nrz242
    nrz242 Posts: 76
    Options
    thanks for posting that! lots of food for thought
  • susannamarie
    susannamarie Posts: 2,148 Member
    Options
    I wonder how it relates to the weight of the mother when she was pregnant. I mean, twins would obviously have the same maternal weight, but that might help explain how it can be genetic and yet families get fatter and fatter. For example, the two ladies I know who weigh about 450-500 lbs have a mother who weighs about 350, and obesity is definitely on the rise.
  • jwdieter
    jwdieter Posts: 2,582 Member
    Options
    I am healthiest between 145 and 150, but a lot of people my height consider themselves fat, and try to go lower. I know I have lots of muscle mass, and am cool with that.

    If you like the way you look and feel, great. Period.

    That said, a lot of people think their body is just naturally bigger than BMI normal. For men, that's probably not true. For women, it's extremely unlikely.
  • ironanimal
    ironanimal Posts: 5,922 Member
    Options
    FML. I wish the world would stop trying to make excuses for people being fat.
  • 55in13
    55in13 Posts: 1,091 Member
    Options
    I am healthiest between 145 and 150, but a lot of people my height consider themselves fat, and try to go lower. I know I have lots of muscle mass, and am cool with that.

    If you like the way you look and feel, great. Period.

    That said, a lot of people think their body is just naturally bigger than BMI normal. For men, that's probably not true. For women, it's extremely unlikely.

    This could spin into a tangent quite easily, but I concur with this. I would even go so far as to say that most people who seem to be healthy despite a high BMI, generally athletes, are quite likely setting themselves up for problems down the road. Some make a smooth transition, but I see a lot of former players in in the broadcast booth that appear to be pretty near their playing weight only it isn't muscle anymore. Take my opinion with a grain of salt though; my target will just squeak me into the normal range at 24.7...
  • astrampe
    astrampe Posts: 2,169 Member
    Options
    FML. I wish the world would stop trying to make excuses for people being fat.

    This......
  • bubaluboo
    bubaluboo Posts: 2,098 Member
    Options
    I don't think that this study was done at all well. The 'inmates' were given a drink (so no concept of what they were actually consumed) and lost weight way too quickly. Sweeping generalisation here but I would assume that they had been obese in the first place because they did not understand healthy eating concepts like portion control and healthy food choices. There is no mention of nutritional education during the 8 week period and I am guessing that they were just sent back home to enjoy all the foods that they missed in the 8 weeks they were away. Of course they were going to get fat again!
  • KaylaBushman
    Options
    The thing I find wrong with the first study is that they don't say whether or not the 8 obese test subjects were taught anything about nutrition.

    If you take an obese person, make them lose weight by feeding them liquid surprise and then when they reach a healthy weight turned them loose without any education on why they got fat in the first place, how in the world do you expect them to stay thin?

    Of course they are going to get fat again, they haven't changed their lifestyle at all.

    Maybe I missed something, but that experiment seems rather flawed...
  • 1princesswarrior
    1princesswarrior Posts: 1,242 Member
    Options
    I find it interesting that all the results except for the puny and extremely controlled environment of the 8 participants is anecdotal, where is the science in that? While anecdotal evidence is not necessarily false, it is not necessarily true either and if anything else, it should give the doctors and scientists ideas for what to study. I will believe it when I see actual results with numbers and people in real environments. Let's face it, what kind of preparation did those 8 participants have before returning to their (probably toxic) environments after being basically starved? Did they receive education and support from the researchers? It actually said those who were successful became Weight Watchers counselors, etc.

    I believe there is a genetic component, a component, not enough to make you fail miserably. Let's face it, we all know this is a lifestyle change.
  • ldrosophila
    ldrosophila Posts: 7,512 Member
    Options
    I am curious how do they explain the obesity epidemic though as that would be more environmental as I don't think our genes have drastically changed in the last 40 or so years.

    There is also no mention of physical activity.

    I was also not surprised they gained back weight from a controlled environment especially if they suffered a food addiction, and it doesnt mention if they had after care education or counseling.

    I dont think it's hopeless, but I do think that when you are obese you will have to spend the rest of your life being vigilant about what you put into your mouth, and maybe it is a constant state of semi-starvation but I would think after some period of time the body would adapt to the lower intake and adjust the metabolism accordingly especially if you add physical activity.

    It's not impossible there are long term success stores just visit the national weight loss registry if you need inspiration.