High protein intake: friend or foe? Evidences
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Nutrition is confusing. There is a lot of conflicting information floating around that I tend not to trust anybody who hasn't done peer reviewed, statistically significant clinical research by qualified people. Case in point: I had people at work raving about strawberry seed extract and how for only $20 per bottle it will significantly improve weight loss in women (blah blah blah). Well, I checked it out, and looked up the 'scientific' study their marketing literature cited. You know what I found? There was only one study, and it was conducted by a clinician with a marketing degree (no scientific credentials), and it had a sample size of 6 mice (not statistically significant). And by the way, all the mice were male (so how did they extract conclusions in human women again?) So, anyway, I take this whole subject with a huge grain of salt.
I did have the experience of having what I believe is a competent nutritionist, a college professor with a PhD in nutrition/dietetics that teaches nutrition at UC Davis, give me some advice on the subject of protein intake. I had taken her about six months of weight/food journal data as well as 3 years of yearly blood/lipid panel results. This is what she told me.
She noted an average daily protein intake of between 250 and 300 grams. Basically, that's my normal protein intake and a couple of protein shakes between meals. She calculated my actual protein requirement as well below that and told me that the excess protein was getting turned into fat. Lowering my protein would help me get off the plateau I had hit as far as weight loss and, more importantly, it would help the abnormally high cholesterol readings shown in my blood/lipid panels. (LDL, HDL, triglicerides...the details confuse me.)
Now, I'm not an expert on nutrition, and I have little interest in giving people nutritional advice. But I can say my subsequent experience supported her findings. I began to loose weight again and my cholesterol readings returned to normal. And I'm happy about that. In addition, I'm still experiencing strength gains from my powerlifting regimen.0 -
Simply fascinating!
If I'm reading this correctly, as I drop for 450# to about half that, I would do well to eat 1-1.5 g/kg and work out as well as I am able given my health to preserve as much of my muscle mass as possible. (Cardio? Lifting? Combo?)
Once I'm done losing, I should aim for 250-500 calories above TDEE including eating back all calories on workout days if I want to bulk up. (Emphasis on lifting, I'm assuming. Would a cardio workout count as a "rest day" from lifting?)0 -
She calculated my actual protein requirement as well below that and told me that the excess protein was getting turned into fat.
Protein does not turn into fat. If dropping protein intake also led to a subsequent reduction in calories, then this would be the cause of your weight loss.0 -
Thanks for taking the time to respond with some interesting points. See below.Thanks for your interesting contribution in the matter.
Ketogenic diet has been proposed for a long time. It works in terms of weight loss, but it comes at a price. High price in my opinion:
1) You are more likely to lose weight than fat on a ketogenic diet, compared to a complete diet.
2) You are more likely to regain your weight when you start again introducing carbs in your diet (this has to do with insuline and cortisol, explained later)
The second study you quoted below, "Effects of Dietary Composition on Energy Expenditure During Weight-Loss Maintenance" JAMA. 2012;307(24):2627-2634, found that the resting energy expenditure and TEE decreased the most in a low-fat diet and least in a high-fat (though questionable as to whether it was actually ketogenic at those ratios). That would seem to push towards the opposite conclusion, that long-termn weight stability can be maintained while on a ketogenic diet.
For the purposes of "diet", I'm referring to "the way I eat", not "the way I eat right now, and will eventually change", to be clear.3) You are weaker on a ketogenic diet when doing cardiovascular or endurance. For non-athletes, however, it may be difficult to notice the difference.
If taken from this: “Blood ketones are directly related to fatigue and perceived effort during exercise in overweight adults adhering to low-carbohydrate diets for weight loss: A pilot study.” J Am Diet Assoc 107: 1792-1796 (2007), there is one major issue with the way the study was set up. It was 2 weeks long. Energy levels on ketogenic diets do not normalize for 2-4 weeks, Phinney et al, Metabolism, 32:769 1983 is a study directly showing the effects of a ketogenic diet on endurance bicyclists which appears to refute the conclusion in this study.4) Ketogenic diet causes low insulin, which some say is of help to prevent insulin resistance. They forget to specify that a healthy normocaloric diet does not expose you to the amount of glucose from refined carbs that is the true responsible of pandemy of insuline resistance in our planet. So you prevent something that you should avoid in the first place.
Hey, look - common ground.
5) At the same time, instead, ketogenic diet causes an increase of cortisol. This triggers the same side effects as a prolonged steroid therapy, which you have already heard of: fat accumulation, immunity depression, loss of memory, skin weakness, early aging.
If I recall correctly, the cortisol is a triggering mechanism for gluconeogenesis, which you need to occur when you enter a hypoglycemic state. This is generally brought upon by heavy weightlifting or other stressful, energy-needy activities of the sort that a non-athelete is unlikely to encounter. Please correct me if I'm wrong.6) Cholesterol levels may increase by around 30% and with it the risk of high cholesterolemy.
An increase in overall LDL may occur, but looking deeper at it through specified LDL testing (VAP, etc.) shows that the makeup of the LDL changes, even while overall LDL Increases, to favor the large, fluffy particles as opposed to small, dense LDL. Also, for this to be a concern, one would have to positively associate cholesterol levels to mortality, which is an extremely tenuous link at this point for everything other than the highest ranges.7 ) Acidosis increases bone demineralisation.
WIthin the realm of nutritional ketosis, ketones generally stay in the 0.5-5.0 mmol concentration range (and generally in the lower end of that spectrum). In diabetic ketoacidosis, the levels are 2 times and higher than that.8) Excess calcium in the urine (hypercalciuria) occurs due to increased bone demineralisation with acidosis. The pH of the urine changes from neutral to slightly acidic, which can put stress on the kidneys and potentially raise the risk of developing kidney stones.
See above.9) You are not developing a healthy eating habit. You are not learning about nutritional informations of your food. Instead, you are tagging some food as "bad" and other food as "good". That means that in the real world you will always have a food obsession and this makes very difficult for a sustained diet.
On the contrary, if one believes that a ketogenic diet is healthy (and, for what it's worth, I find the state of nutritional science to be very poor over the last 50 years, so throwing studies back and forth is doable but somewhat unproductive, I think), then one is very easily developing a healthy eating habit. I have spent more learning about nutrition and establishing baselines as a method of n=1 testing before undertaking this diet than any other things that I've tried. I do believe processed carbs are "bad" - and, if they are, there's no problem labeling them as such.In conclusion, ketogenic diet represents an emergency mechanism the body has to survive when he's lacking nutrients. In my opinion, nobody should undertake such a treatment without strict supervision of an expert. It is NOT the adequate diet to follow on your own.
For what it's worth, I keep my doctor in the loop with my dietary habits -- he eats ketogenically, as well.It all comes to a risk / benefit estimation , as usual in evidence based medicine. Does a healthy person really need to go into ketosis and undertake these risks to lose weight?
I struggle to define an overweight/obese person as "healthy". Obesity correlates to almost every disease state known to man. Does an otherwise healthy person (who is not trying to lose weight) have to go ketogenic? Maybe not -- there are some people who seem to tolerate carbohydrates better than the rest of us, for sure.Let's not forget that ketogenic diet has been developed not for weight loss, but for treating epilepsy.
Actually, the diet was pretty well established long before it was being used as a treatment for epilepsy. The Inuit have been eating that way for a long time, and among public understanding goes back to the 1860's and William Banting (as far as carbohydrate restriction is concerned).If you really want to try it, I highly suggest you to consult your physician before undertaking such diet restrictions.
More common ground.
I can cite more tomorrow (I don't have access to med journals easily here) at work if you'd like. Either way, thanks for taking the time to respond to this.0 -
She calculated my actual protein requirement as well below that and told me that the excess protein was getting turned into fat.
Protein does not turn into fat. If dropping protein intake also led to a subsequent reduction in calories, then this would be the cause of your weight loss.
Protein can be converted to glucose which can be converted to fat.
I am inclined to agree with you on the second part of your response, but absent more information it's tough to make a determination.0 -
She calculated my actual protein requirement as well below that and told me that the excess protein was getting turned into fat.
Protein does not turn into fat. If dropping protein intake also led to a subsequent reduction in calories, then this would be the cause of your weight loss.
Protein can be converted to glucose which can be converted to fat.
I am inclined to agree with you on the second part of your response, but absent more information it's tough to make a determination.
your glycogen stores have to be full in order for protein to turn into fat.
there are some amino acids that are soley ketogenic.
overall this is very unlikely to happen though0 -
I don't know that anyone recommends getting rid of carbs and fat. All the people I've seen promoting a very low carb diet encourage people to eat lots of healthy fats and mention that an all lean protein only diet leads to 'rabbit starvation'.
Glad to hear that the kidney thing is bunk.
Hello, thanks for sharing with us
Unfortunately the trend is getting more and more extreme toward severe nutrient restriction aimed to weight loss.
If u want to know how extreme, please google "Ketogenic Enteric Nutrition".
I'd suggest, however, not to start the topic on this procedure here. It's just an example to show where the dieting fashion is bringing us.0 -
She calculated my actual protein requirement as well below that and told me that the excess protein was getting turned into fat.
Protein does not turn into fat. If dropping protein intake also led to a subsequent reduction in calories, then this would be the cause of your weight loss.
Protein can be converted to glucose which can be converted to fat.
Theoretically. But there are no real world conditions where this will ever happen to a measurable amount. For protein to be converted to fat, it would have to undergo gluconeogenesis followed by de novo lipogenesis, two highly inefficient processes.0 -
Thanks! Very interesting read and also very useful discussion :-)0
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Bump! Very interesting. Thank you!0
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1g per LBM while cutting on Keto seems to be the norm.0
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Thank you for this sane analysis. Helpful!0
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The analysis you have done is great but high protein do not cause any kidney problem but if a person who is having a kidney problem should avoid high protein intake which is not god for the kidney0
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tagging to read the discussion later :flowerforyou:
I personally enjoy at least 135g of protein a day which is the same amount of pounds that I weigh...not necessarily because I think it has magically bodybuilding qualities, but because I like it and I get good fat loss results and nice strength gains to boot. I tend to have the RDA's recommended daily amount in dinner, lol.0 -
I just looked at mine, and I had been noticing that I was almost always going over in my protein. I figured it out, and I always got at least the minimum you stated, and never over the 1.5 g/kg., so I guess I'm okay. I'm not purposely trying to eat high protein, but end up doing it.0
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This is quite possibly the most informative thread ever on MFP.
Very impressed by all the posters.0 -
The regular guy / girl who is following a strict diet and reads about increasing protein to 1-1.2 g /kg/ day to help results. This is TRUE FOR FAT LOSS, not for WEIGHT LOSS in general.
If you are on a caloric deficit, chances are that you are eating very low quantity of proteins. But if you want to burn only FAT and limit Muscle reduction, you MUST tell this to your body somehow. Workout and increased protein intake is your way to tell your body " I am transforming my diet. This adjustements I have made must reflect the way YOU change. We only want muscles here, get rid of the fat" .
This is more important for the males rather than females. An "ideal" female body doesn't usually have lots of muscle in comparison. Additionally, in a female, muscles would not grow over a certain limit because of lack of testosterone. Hence, for a female, weight loss usually reflects more appropriately fat loss, because there is not that much muscle to get rid of.
If you are a girl, high protein intake will help you less than if you are a guy.
going to call you out on the bit in bold
firstly, who defines what an "ideal" female body is....? See my avatar? she's a forensic reconstruction of a woman who lived 50,000 years before anyone dictated to women what an "ideal" female body was supposed to be, and she has a lot more muscle mass than most modern women of her height. Some of it is genetic, but some of it is the result of living her entire life without mod cons that make people weak and sedentary. Women are supposed to be strong and are supposed to have muscles. Just because we have about 10% less than what men do, does not mean it's okay to just let our muscles waste away and that there's no benefit to getting adequate protein and doing strength training while dieting.
Also, due to the lack of testosterone and hence relative difficulty building muscle compared to men, surely it would be *more* important for women to preserve what lean muscle mass they have, not less? Women have less testosterone so are at greater risk of losing muscle than men are. Therefore it's more important to look after it, not less!! Especially as loss of lean muscle mass happens along with loss of bone density.... and the converse, preserving or improving lean muscle mass means greater bone density, and as a doctor you know already that low bone density increases the risk of osteoporosis. More muscle also decreases the risk of joint problems as strong muscles support the joints. So more muscle mass in women = better health. So much so that the UAE government is actively encouraging powerlifting among women, to help reduce the amount of women who get osteoporosis....
Additionally, the look that most women want can be better achieved by looking after their lean body mass, as opposed to starving it off, even those that don't want visible definition, the difference is keeping the body fat percentage above 20%. Wasted muscles isn't the look that many women want, what they want is to be firm, rather than flabby or all skin and bones. That comes from having strong muscles. Many women diet down and find they still don't look the way they want, because they are still soft and flabby looking, just smaller. Then they start strength training and watching their protein intake and find they start to like their bodies................ so why tell women there's no benefit looking after their lean body mass? Why not look after it right from the start so they don't lose it in the first place then have to train for months to get it back again?
Lastly, being strong is incredibly empowering for women. We are not supposed to be weak or feeble. That's just a modern cultural concept, which is extremely disempowering. If you want to know just how empowering strength training is for women, read this article and especially the comments that follow it: http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/a-lion-in-iron-ladies-measurements-dont-matter/ 10% less muscle than men does not equal weak and feeble and does not mean there's no benefit in looking after your muscle mass.0 -
he wasn't really saying there's no benefit, just less. It's hard to say if it benefits men or women more, but if we can do the same training, then surely eating similar amounts of protein while adjusted for each person's calorie goals/portion sizes, would be beneficial too.0
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he wasn't really saying there's no benefit, just less. It's hard to say if it benefits men or women more, but if we can do the same training, then surely eating similar amounts of protein while adjusted for each person's calorie goals/portion sizes, would be beneficial too.
he needs to phrase it a whole lot better, because what he basically said was that women have less muscle than men so there's no need to worry about losing it because there's less of it to lose.....? I mean WTF really....?
if that's not what he meant then he needs to brush up on his writing skills....
and even if he meant it how you understood it, the fact that women have less testosterone would mean women lose muscle more easily, and find it harder to gain it back, therefore it's *more* important to look after it, not less.0 -
he needs to phrase it a whole lot better, because what he basically said was that women have less muscle than men so there's no need to worry about losing it because there's less of it to lose.....? I mean WTF really....?
if that's not what he meant then he needs to brush up on his writing skills....
and even if he meant it how you understood it, the fact that women have less testosterone would mean women lose muscle more easily, and find it harder to gain it back, therefore it's *more* important to look after it, not less.
Hello, thanks for your interesting and exhaustive comtribution. Please let's all continue to be polite.
I have not stated that muscle is less important for women than it is for men. I believe the opposite and I agree with your post. Instead, I underlined the differences of a high protein intake advantages in preserving muscle on a diet while undertaking a caloric deficit.
Male overweight people are more likely to have more muscle as well, for genetic, hormonal reasons as well as possible previous gym and sport activities aimed to strength training, whereas female overweight are more likely to have a predominant excess of fat for the opposite reasons. Of course there are exceptions, everyone is different. It is always advisable to have your physician at your side while starting a diet, because he's the one who can help you tailor it.
Hence, the average overweight woman may be less interested in a high protein intake, since her caloric deficit will be already more incline towards fat loss than it would be on a male.
It is important , however, to stay above the minimum daily intake recommendations.
Both males and females are strongly invited to workout to preserve lean mass and to benefit from exercise derived health advantages. These include bone preservation, as you have well put.0 -
She calculated my actual protein requirement as well below that and told me that the excess protein was getting turned into fat.
Protein does not turn into fat. If dropping protein intake also led to a subsequent reduction in calories, then this would be the cause of your weight loss.
Protein can be converted to glucose which can be converted to fat.
I am inclined to agree with you on the second part of your response, but absent more information it's tough to make a determination.
your glycogen stores have to be full in order for protein to turn into fat.
there are some amino acids that are soley ketogenic.
overall this is very unlikely to happen though
That's fair, and I agree. My point was rather pedantic in nature, in retrospect.0 -
Read Later.0
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he needs to phrase it a whole lot better, because what he basically said was that women have less muscle than men so there's no need to worry about losing it because there's less of it to lose.....? I mean WTF really....?
if that's not what he meant then he needs to brush up on his writing skills....
and even if he meant it how you understood it, the fact that women have less testosterone would mean women lose muscle more easily, and find it harder to gain it back, therefore it's *more* important to look after it, not less.
Hello, thanks for your interesting and exhaustive comtribution. Please let's all continue to be polite.
I have not stated that muscle is less important for women than it is for men. I believe the opposite and I agree with your post. Instead, I underlined the differences of a high protein intake advantages in preserving muscle on a diet while undertaking a caloric deficit.
Male overweight people are more likely to have more muscle as well, for genetic, hormonal reasons as well as possible previous gym and sport activities aimed to strength training, whereas female overweight are more likely to have a predominant excess of fat for the opposite reasons. Of course there are exceptions, everyone is different. It is always advisable to have your physician at your side while starting a diet, because he's the one who can help you tailor it.
Hence, the average overweight woman may be less interested in a high protein intake, since her caloric deficit will be already more incline towards fat loss than it would be on a male.
It is important , however, to stay above the minimum daily intake recommendations.
Both males and females are strongly invited to workout to preserve lean mass and to benefit from exercise derived health advantages. These include bone preservation, as you have well put.
Thank you for clarifying.
Your statement was ambiguous, it wasn't clear that you were saying women don't need to worry so much about protein intake... it read that they don't need to worry so much about lean body mass. As you say above, that's not what you meant. I'm glad you agree about the importance of women preserving their lean body mass.0 -
Bump0
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he wasn't really saying there's no benefit, just less. It's hard to say if it benefits men or women more, but if we can do the same training, then surely eating similar amounts of protein while adjusted for each person's calorie goals/portion sizes, would be beneficial too.
he needs to phrase it a whole lot better, because what he basically said was that women have less muscle than men so there's no need to worry about losing it because there's less of it to lose.....? I mean WTF really....?
if that's not what he meant then he needs to brush up on his writing skills....
and even if he meant it how you understood it, the fact that women have less testosterone would mean women lose muscle more easily, and find it harder to gain it back, therefore it's *more* important to look after it, not less.
I think this forum is best, or at least most productive, if we assume good intentions on the part of the person we're discussing something with. This has been a pretty rad discussion thus far.
P.S. Women who lift heavy are awesome.0 -
he wasn't really saying there's no benefit, just less. It's hard to say if it benefits men or women more, but if we can do the same training, then surely eating similar amounts of protein while adjusted for each person's calorie goals/portion sizes, would be beneficial too.
he needs to phrase it a whole lot better, because what he basically said was that women have less muscle than men so there's no need to worry about losing it because there's less of it to lose.....? I mean WTF really....?
if that's not what he meant then he needs to brush up on his writing skills....
and even if he meant it how you understood it, the fact that women have less testosterone would mean women lose muscle more easily, and find it harder to gain it back, therefore it's *more* important to look after it, not less.
I think this forum is best, or at least most productive, if we assume good intentions on the part of the person we're discussing something with. This has been a pretty rad discussion thus far.
P.S. Women who lift heavy are awesome.
well when I read the phrase, I understood it one way, which was not the way the writer intended it to be understood. I didn't think "oh look an ambiguous sentence, I'm going to take it in the worst way" I honestly, genuinely thought he meant it the way I took it when I wrote my replies. Otherwise I would have either ignored it, or pointed out that it was ambiguous and might have been taken the wrong way. Maybe I should have spotted it, but I didn't.
IMO this is a serious issue, i.e so many women not realising the importance of preserving lean body mass, that I will call people out for it, and in this case because the post was otherwise very good, it made what he seemed to be saying seem all the more problematic by contrast. (And from a communication point of view, avoiding ambiguous sentences is the responsibility of the writer not the reader - ask any editor)
PS totally agree 0 -
Bumping for my friends list to see! Great discussion! I have been struggling to make the 1g/lb body-weight that I've read as the accepted protein intake, and have been worried I'll see a reduction in LBM while cutting. 1g/pound LBM sits much better with me and it's nice to know that it may still help avoid LBM loss.0
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