Lifting Heavy on Weight Machines?
artsycella
Posts: 121 Member
I've read enough forum posts on weight lifting to suspect that the first thing people will say here is that free weights and compound movements are better than gym weight machines. I am sure you are right. I believe you completely. But free weights are not a good choice for me right now for two reasons:
1.) I've had past injuries and surgeries to one of my wrists and both knees. Weight machines allow me to isolate (and skip) exercises that put too much stress on those areas.
2.) My current gym doesn't have free weights.
So I'm trying to do the best I can with gym machines. Better something than nothing, right? It seems like low rep, heavy weight is the direction most are advocating when it comes to free weights. Does this approach translate to using weight machines as well? Is it reasonable to plan on 5 x 5 at my max possible weight for each session?
And, if it helps, my stats:
Female 5'8"
SW: 227
CW: 206
GW: 160ish
Bodyfat (calculated using Navy method, nothing fancy): 47%
I'm currently using MFP's calculations to lose .5 lb per week. I'm trying to hit the gym 2-3 times per week, do lifting and then 20-30 minutes of cardio on the elliptical (those wonky knees again).
Comments and suggestions are very welcome.
1.) I've had past injuries and surgeries to one of my wrists and both knees. Weight machines allow me to isolate (and skip) exercises that put too much stress on those areas.
2.) My current gym doesn't have free weights.
So I'm trying to do the best I can with gym machines. Better something than nothing, right? It seems like low rep, heavy weight is the direction most are advocating when it comes to free weights. Does this approach translate to using weight machines as well? Is it reasonable to plan on 5 x 5 at my max possible weight for each session?
And, if it helps, my stats:
Female 5'8"
SW: 227
CW: 206
GW: 160ish
Bodyfat (calculated using Navy method, nothing fancy): 47%
I'm currently using MFP's calculations to lose .5 lb per week. I'm trying to hit the gym 2-3 times per week, do lifting and then 20-30 minutes of cardio on the elliptical (those wonky knees again).
Comments and suggestions are very welcome.
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Replies
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bump because I have been using machines for my weight/strength training.0
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Bump.
I'd like opinions on this as well0 -
Stressing muscles (whether from a machine or free weights) is good. You can lift heavy on machines. Free weights just incorporate more muscles (stabilizers) and ROM.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I don't see why you couldn't. Weights are weights, whether they're machine assisted or not. So, I'd get a good program and follow it. Jamie Eason's Live Fit trainer use a lot of machine exercises, I think. You could always do some swaps for freeweight stuff as well.0
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Just my personal opinion, but I think body weight exercises would be better for you than machine weights. Isolation can cause more injury to your already hurt knees and wrists. The reason why people suggest not using those machines is because they force the body to work in unnatural paths of movement and can cause further injury.
Body weight exercises can be modified to increase and decrease difficulty and they still work out muscles in groups. I've read TONS of posts from people that have improved their injured body parts' function and mobility due to use of free weights. Unless you've had a doctor tell you specifically not to use your knees or wrists I think starting with modified body weight and working up to increasing difficulty would be your best bet. The best part: there are a bunch of free programs available on YouTube!!0 -
Interesting topic... BUMP0
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I used machines when I belonged to a gym that only had them, and had pretty darn good results. I had better results when I quit the gym and bought free weights for home, but I was perfectly content with the machines while I was using them.0
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I've been using the machines for a little over a month (3-4x each week) and I'm really liking my results. I'm sure the free weights would give even better results, but for now this is what I've got access to.
I haven't been following any specific plan, like 5x5 or New Rules, etc. I just do 3 or 4 sets of 10-12 reps and increase the weight at least once each week. I still do at least 30 minutes of cardio every session and on days I don't hit the weight machines, I do 45 minutes of cardio.
I haven't lost any weight on the scale, but I've lost an inch off of my hips and another inch off my waist since starting a month ago. Today I was trying on pants and got into a size 12. It was so tight I couldn't breath and I think I heard the fabric crying, but the fact that I could even get it up over my hips and buttoned was huge. I haven't fit smaller then a 14 in my entire adult life. So yeah, I like the machines. :-)0 -
Thanks for all the great responses! I really appreciate hearing from everyone, especially folks who have tried something like this. Good to know that some people have seen some good results, even if it may not be as good as using free weights.0
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Same basic concepts apply.
Low rep/high mass(volume) for size (hypertrophy)
Higher reps with a little less volume for definition and endurance.
It all depends on your goals.
Also, when it comes to injured wrists and such, you may want to start with lower weights (when the injured part can sustain it) and build from there... Remember "Lifting heavy" is relative... What is heavy for me may be lifting light for you... Progress is what you are ultimately looking for.0 -
One of the big benefits of being strong is that it makes your everyday life easier. You can bend over and pick up a sleeping child, put a heavy box away on a top shelf, push a wheelbarrow, carry a suitcase up a couple flights of stairs, ...
These movements are very similar to compound free weight lifts. One criticism of free weights is they don't develop the stabilizers as much as these free-form real-life movements. A wiggling 2 year old is a lot harder to handle than a nice, even barbell.
But an isolation machine at the gym is even worse than free weights. They often don't hit the stabilizers at all. They develop less functional strength. You might be able to leg press 150 pounds, but you throw your back out trying to help move a 100-pound sofa through a narrow door.
The machines are fine for what they are. But know the limitations.0 -
Just my personal opinion, but I think body weight exercises would be better for you than machine weights. Isolation can cause more injury to your already hurt knees and wrists. The reason why people suggest not using those machines is because they force the body to work in unnatural paths of movement and can cause further injury.
Body weight exercises can be modified to increase and decrease difficulty and they still work out muscles in groups. I've read TONS of posts from people that have improved their injured body parts' function and mobility due to use of free weights. Unless you've had a doctor tell you specifically not to use your knees or wrists I think starting with modified body weight and working up to increasing difficulty would be your best bet. The best part: there are a bunch of free programs available on YouTube!!
This is not a bad idea if knees are the problem.
The leg extension machine is a bad idea if your knees are wonky - your range of motion is constrained so your knees take most of the torque.
Hamstring curl machine's not as bad, in my experience.
Check the exrx directory for other things you can do in the gym. Check all first with your doc or Physical Therapist (if they're interested/any good).
My issue is an ankle. I do a mix of
- bodyweight stuff. I do squats and lunges, but I modify them to cause less strain where it hurts. In my case that means feet are closer together, and I stay out of the extreme ends of the range of motion.
- ham curl (machine)
- glute-ham raise - i think this is what it is, maybe it's the reverse one - there's essentially a table with hand grips that I lie on, face forward, and I hinge at my hips, bringing the torso downwards and back up. Knees aren't involved. Can make it harder by holding a dumbbell or kettlebell.
- lots of stuff on the cable machine, only your imagination can limit you. Strap around an area maybe just above the knee, and have at it with leg raises and kicks. (Not official advice: that's just what I do.)
- the single-leg romanian deadlift does not ask you to bend your knees significantly. The standing/strained leg is straight, the other can be held at a comfortable angle.
Most of those hit your back stuff - hams, glutes.
Quads are involved in really most cardio activities, even swimming. Maybe see what you can get out of those. Walking, maybe? Working up to an incline?
I think machines can totally be useful. The only thing is, they do constrain your movement, so your modifications have to work within that.
Azdak had a really great post on just this, recently, will try to find it.0 -
Something is better than nothing. You won't gain as much strength on as many muscles when you use machines, but you're still far ahead the average couch potato.0
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this was it!
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1015100-heavy-lifting-always-the-best
edit: you'll want to check with someone qualified, but my intuition is that trying to emulate 5x5 on machines might not be ideal.
If you know you have vulnerabilities, I think it is a good idea to always use the limits of pain, and your subjective sense of exertion, to define your rep ranges, on a workout by workout basis.
Give yourself enough time for recovery, too, and eat to fuel your workouts.
Some people use straps for wrists, I don't know about that, seems like there's room for further unintended wonkiness. Maybe a brace would trick you into staying conscious of form.
But in answer to your direct question, I think machines *generally* are fine, but, read about each machine you intend to use, and check it against your abilities & limitations.0 -
Use what you have available. That said, free weights are superior because they allow your body to use more than one muscle group at a time which is how your body actually functions when performing real life tasks, and they allow your joints to move naturally along a full range of motion.0
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I have had great results with weighted machines. That leg press is my ***** 3 times a week. Although I will agree with others that you get better results from free weight as you can taylor your workouts much better and hit more muscle groups. But don't dismiss the weighted machines, they are beneficial.0
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If your alternatives are using machines or not lifting weights at all, machines are the better choice.0
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Free weights, yes - they are better as they force you to use more muscle groups. But, they are not an option for everyone - confidence, injury, disability etc.
I started off going to the gym using only weight machines because I had no confidence in my ability to use free weights. I still use some weight machines. My time using certain weight machines gave me the ability to then progress to free weights probably easier than had I started with free weights to start off with - I have mild joint problems and strengthening the muscles around those joints have improved my mobility.
Using a weight machine, like AnvilHead, is better than not using weights at all. :bigsmile:0 -
Free weights are far better than machines because they recruit stabiliser muscles. That said if you have injuries, stick to the machines and/or get a trainer0
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If you have bad knees for the love of God or any equivalent word, don't squat in the Smith Machine, and don't do leg extension machine.
In lieu of going off on one of my usual rants, considering I think machines are WAAAAY more dangerous than free weights, I will just say that machines suck. The main reason is because you can move the weight regardless of whether or not you need to, and you will move it in a fixed position that is GUARANTEED not to be YOUR optimal path. The problem with the fitness industry is that none of this is a game, but the industry will have you believe that much of it is. Setting yourself up for bad movement patterns/habits/engrams could further exacerbate a problem or weakness. A muscle will always respond to resistance, but just making a muscle stronger is not always the best thing especially for someone who already has a problem with a joint.
And I don't believe in "something is better than nothing" But I'll touch on that later.0 -
Ya its fine... As long as you put in just as much effort as wwith free weights. One problem with machines however is they have a limited range of motion and leave your strength with weaknesses if you train will them too much..0
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If you have bad knees for the love of God or any equivalent word, don't squat in the Smith Machine, and don't do leg extension machine.
In lieu of going off on one of my usual rants, considering I think machines are WAAAAY more dangerous than free weights, I will just say that machines suck. The main reason is because you can move the weight regardless of whether or not you need to, and you will move it in a fixed position that is GUARANTEED not to be YOUR optimal path. The problem with the fitness industry is that none of this is a game, but the industry will have you believe that much of it is. Setting yourself up for bad movement patterns/habits/engrams could further exacerbate a problem or weakness. A muscle will always respond to resistance, but just making a muscle stronger is not always the best thing especially for someone who already has a problem with a joint.
And I don't believe in "something is better than nothing" But I'll touch on that later.
I'm with this guy....while I believe that resistance training is better than not doing it, I don't touch many machines. Most of them will move in a very linear motion, and for most lifts, that is not a natural motion!0 -
I don't see why you couldn't. Weights are weights, whether they're machine assisted or not. So, I'd get a good program and follow it. Jamie Eason's Live Fit trainer use a lot of machine exercises, I think. You could always do some swaps for freeweight stuff as well.
Yeah Live Fit is very machine based, also is very body part focused so you could drop/alter days to fit around your injuries. I really enjoyed the program (and it is free on bodybuilding.com) but the going 6 days a week and adding a load of cardio made me give up after a while :laugh: Defo a good starter option to build up!0 -
Due to previous injuries, (horse riding accidents, motor bike (well motor scooter, but it did me some damage), and a car accident, I only do weights with my personal trainer. I wasn't activating correct muscles due to my body 'protecting' previously damaged muscle, etc. It is taking a while to develop correct form. Last year I did group training for 9 months, and I was never corrected on my form. Having a personal trainer has been well worth the money.0
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If you don't mind saying, what are you currently doing on the machines that you can't do with free weights or body weight excercises?
Some people might have some better alternatives for you!0 -
If you don't mind saying, what are you currently doing on the machines that you can't do with free weights or body weight excercises?
Some people might have some better alternatives for you!
You're right, thanks! I didn't want to hijack the thread to talk about my own personal limitations--I know what my limitation are, I've discussed them with my medical professionals and have gotten their advice on how to proceed (short version: use common sense--don't do things that hurt. Don't pretend they don't hurt). I know that, at least right now, free weights aren't a good option for me so I was just more interested in hearing opinions about the options that I do have. But a lot of people seem to want to provide me with specific advice on the best exercises I can do, so here goes:
I can't do squats or lunges with proper form because of my wonky knees. Basically any bending that requires me to bend and put significant pressure on my knees to maintain said form doesn't work well for me. From watching Youtube videos, at least, it seems like a lot of free weight compound movements involve that kind of bending. Also, any kind of hard impact like jumping, etc., doesn't do me any favors.
For my wrists, I have two different motions/positions that don't work well. The first is grasping anything with a lot of pressure between fingers and palm. For example, I can no longer use that hand to pump gas. I'm not sure if there are any weight exercises that require that kind of movement, but I thought I'd mention it for reference. I can grasp and hold things in my hand with no problem, as long as there isn't any resistance.
The second problem I have with my wrist is placing my hand perpendicular to my wrist and placing weight or pressure on that bend. In other words, push-ups are tough. A lot of body weight exercises rely on that form, which is another reason that weight machines are pretty attractive to me in place of a body weight regimen.
But I absolutely do welcome specific suggestions, especially any of those folks who think that weight machines would be hurting rather than helping me. I'm completely open to trying new things.0 -
One of the big benefits of being strong is that it makes your everyday life easier. You can bend over and pick up a sleeping child, put a heavy box away on a top shelf, push a wheelbarrow, carry a suitcase up a couple flights of stairs, ...
These movements are very similar to compound free weight lifts. One criticism of free weights is they don't develop the stabilizers as much as these free-form real-life movements. A wiggling 2 year old is a lot harder to handle than a nice, even barbell.
But an isolation machine at the gym is even worse than free weights. They often don't hit the stabilizers at all. They develop less functional strength. You might be able to leg press 150 pounds, but you throw your back out trying to help move a 100-pound sofa through a narrow door.
The machines are fine for what they are. But know the limitations.
Thanks! I definitely don't expect the machines to be perfect. Right now I don't have any wriggling two year olds around to lift on a regular basis, so I'm trying to do what I can when and where I can. I'm hoping that weight machines really are better than nothing, though it seems clear from the responses here that there are mixed feelings about that.0 -
Thanks! This is great info and I will definitely check it out.
edit: you'll want to check with someone qualified, but my intuition is that trying to emulate 5x5 on machines might not be ideal.
Some people use straps for wrists, I don't know about that, seems like there's room for further unintended wonkiness. Maybe a brace would trick you into staying conscious of form.
Great idea. I have wrist braces coming out of my ears, but for some reason I hadn't thought about using one while exercising. I will give it a try!0 -
I do a combination of them, although i do strength training just 2 times a week and then classes. When i hit the gym floor i use machines for back muscles and sometimes a bit of legs, but arms i use free weights and i have started with squats...atm just 50 pounds but i hope get better soon! Couple of years ago i got into doing all body workouts with machines 4 times a week and i had good results but is true that squats with free weights work lot of muscles at the same time...0
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Same basic concepts apply.
Low rep/high mass(volume) for size (hypertrophy)
Higher reps with a little less volume for definition and endurance.
:huh:0
This discussion has been closed.
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