Can we please settle on at least a loose definition of...

I see where you are coming from, but it's never going to happen. To a vegan, beef is going to be 'dirty' but to someone eating a Paleo style diet grains are 'dirty'.

Wouldn't it be easier to stop using arbitrary labels? Who cares if your food is "clean" or not? Just eat what YOU want to eat.

Well said, Beachiron. I get the same sort of frustration. I've caught myself reading page after page of responses with essentially two sides using the same buzzwords and realized I should probably get back to work and back out of it. It is frustrating that most topics don't seem to really explore any deeper than the surface. I don't know if you do this already, as I have only come across your posts by chance, but you would probably be a good person to start a thread like that (one that went well, I mean). I struggle with it because I feel that I have to list about 50 disclaimers about my intentions to keep the thread from spiraling out of control with people blasting the same speech they use every time they get the chance. It ends up really long-winded, and that's not even how I speak IRL, I prefer to be succinct. People are chomping at the bit to dismiss what anyone else says, and I often feel that they glaze over what they have read in favor of attacking the person, even if the person admits they are doing something wrong and are asking for guidance.

'Processed' food, to me, is definitely not just ANYTHING that's been packaged (veggies in a bag for example), that's just a ridiculous assertion made by people who are bothered by the fact that you don't eat the way they think you should eat. Or people who just like an argument for the sake of it. 'Processed' quite clearly implies foods such as microwave meals, foods with a bunch of random chemicals thrown in etc, food that has gone through a significant amount of processing to add in extra ingredients... not just putting something natural in a bag!

I think the definitions of 'clean' and 'processed' are extremely clear, and it's basically common sense which is which. People just can't seem to pass up the opportunity for an argument... as much as I can't stand it, I guess that's the nature of the internet

I understand what you are saying here, but how do items like organic microwave meals (Amy's for example) fit into the definition? From Amy's Website:

Amy’s food tastes so good because it’s made from the kind of real food ingredients that people use in their own kitchens…no additives, no preservatives, no GMOs. If a child can’t pronounce it, you won’t find it on an Amy’s label.

It is definitely more than just putting vegetables in a bag and freezing them, and it is microwavable, but I could make something similar to their food at home without needing to buy a bag (vial?) of Polysorbate 80, etc.

I am genuinely curious as I think it is a major grey area... it is the kind of food that I would consider non- or minimally- processed but others would avoid.

Hmmm, I'm not so sure about this one actually. As a relatively clean eater I wouldn't have a problem eating packaged meals like that. It probably wouldn't be my first choice of meal, but I wouldn't kick up a fuss if I had to eat it. I think foods like that just come down to personal preference - if you consider it to be within your own definition of clean, then by all means include it in your diet. If I looked at the label and saw that everything on it was real food and there were no additives then I wouldn't have a problem eating it and I would probably consider it 'clean'! I wasn't aware you actually got organic microwave meals like that - I might actually look into trying some of them! It'd be a hell of a lot easier than cooking everything from scratch all the time!! :P

For me, if it has any ingredients in it that you can't pronounce and don't know what they are...it's likely processed. Any food with less than, say, 3-4 ingredients I would not consider clean.

RE: conniej
These are the kind of things I find so interesting. I know, I know, I know that we can lose weight eating crap. The assumption gets made here, and in the "real world" for me, as I am still heavy, that we ONLY want to lose weight. I have said it so many times I am starting to get on my own nerves, but losing weight is awesome, I'm excited about it, but it is a BYPRODUCT of being healthy. I think many of the people who preach clean eating, no processed junk, or whatever you want to call it feel the same way. Most KNOW you can lose weight at a deficit. Some don't, but it has been done to death. They will figure it out. Many would say there is no proven reason to avoid processed food and that it is extreme. I feel like we consume enough artificial, man made chemical abominations on accident, that if we can avoid having them on purpose, we should. It seems extreme to me that people would vilify that in favor of what is faster, cheaper, and easier if the subject has the ability and desire to do otherwise.

I couldn't agree more. It is heartbreaking when you actually start seeing sick sick sick children--then look at what we are feeding them....as a parent--I am so grateful to get a wake up call early in my children's lives! It has never been about losing weight for me. Yes--that has been a happy benefit....but I am enjoying the steps of the trip from here to there!! I am glad to see that you are too! As are many people on this thread!

I think what kids are fed at school alone is absolutely horrid. There is a minimum amount of calories that need to be provided in school lunch. Ok, fine.
Why is there not a maximum? That's not cool.
So kids eat corn, corn, corn, and more corn in everything, as well as anything else subsidized. I'm not going to touch the quality of meat served in schools, or the fact that milk is often the only option (it was when I was in school) because I do not eat those for personal reasons, and my bias would show. I do feel like they could do better by our children by not serving Grade F meat, however.
Schools need money, so they have vending machines. Great.
Then the US Gov't classifies pizza as a vegetable. Are you just f***ing with us now?
Then they say the solution is to tell kids to go out and play. Yeah, well, we on MFP know that if you eat a 1,700 calorie lunch, that would be a ***** for anyone to burn off. The trick is to not consume it in the first place.
You can tell me all day that it's about choices and parenting, and I'll agree with you wholeheartedly. It still makes me feel icky that kids are surrounded by that garbage. Even if a parent ate every single meal with their child and promoted healthy food at every single sitting, the same child will have 90% of marketing directed at them be for junk food. It's hardly impossible to feed a child what they should eat, but the odds are stacked against many of us. We have Netflix, but no cable, so we can avoid our four year old being inundated with marketing. My husband stays home with our daughter and sets a fine example, but we are lucky we can do that.

Here's an attempt and processed foods: they come in a package, they have labels, they have lobbies, there is an industry associated with them, they contain ingredients you cannot pronounce and your grandparents wouldn't have identified as food, they are made in a factory. What am I missing?

IMHO - GMO foods count as processed foods, but I realize that's a whole different can of worms. For me, eating clean means not eating heavily processed foods. As a vegan, I view meat as a heavily processed food. Conversely, I'm not worried about my consumption of steel cut oats or packaged quinoa.

I do not believe you can't be healthy eating processed foods. I eat them, I'm just selective about what I eat. I'd love to have my own organic garden, but the choices I've made re: how to live my life don't leave space for that activity. Maybe someday they will.

In my judgment, I'm happier and healthier eating some Beyond Meat Chicken strips than I am eating Fritos.

This list isn't all inclusive and I'm sure there are holes in my logic that someone can and will try to drive a semi through. I'm okay with that

RE: conniej
These are the kind of things I find so interesting. I know, I know, I know that we can lose weight eating crap. The assumption gets made here, and in the "real world" for me, as I am still heavy, that we ONLY want to lose weight. I have said it so many times I am starting to get on my own nerves, but losing weight is awesome, I'm excited about it, but it is a BYPRODUCT of being healthy. I think many of the people who preach clean eating, no processed junk, or whatever you want to call it feel the same way. Most KNOW you can lose weight at a deficit. Some don't, but it has been done to death. They will figure it out. Many would say there is no proven reason to avoid processed food and that it is extreme. I feel like we consume enough artificial, man made chemical abominations on accident, that if we can avoid having them on purpose, we should. It seems extreme to me that people would vilify that in favor of what is faster, cheaper, and easier if the subject has the ability and desire to do otherwise.

I couldn't agree more. It is heartbreaking when you actually start seeing sick sick sick children--then look at what we are feeding them....as a parent--I am so grateful to get a wake up call early in my children's lives! It has never been about losing weight for me. Yes--that has been a happy benefit....but I am enjoying the steps of the trip from here to there!! I am glad to see that you are too! As are many people on this thread!

I think what kids are fed at school alone is absolutely horrid. There is a minimum amount of calories that need to be provided in school lunch. Ok, fine.
Why is there not a maximum? That's not cool.
So kids eat corn, corn, corn, and more corn in everything, as well as anything else subsidized. I'm not going to touch the quality of meat served in schools, or the fact that milk is often the only option (it was when I was in school) because I do not eat those for personal reasons, and my bias would show. I do feel like they could do better by our children by not serving Grade F meat, however.
Schools need money, so they have vending machines. Great.
Then the US Gov't classifies pizza as a vegetable. Are you just f***ing with us now?
Then they say the solution is to tell kids to go out and play. Yeah, well, we on MFP know that if you eat a 1,700 calorie lunch, that would be a ***** for anyone to burn off. The trick is to not consume it in the first place.
You can tell me all day that it's about choices and parenting, and I'll agree with you wholeheartedly. It still makes me feel icky that kids are surrounded by that garbage. Even if a parent ate every single meal with their child and promoted healthy food at every single sitting, the same child will have 90% of marketing directed at them be for junk food. It's hardly impossible to feed a child what they should eat, but the odds are stacked against many of us. We have Netflix, but no cable, so we can avoid our four year old being inundated with marketing. My husband stays home with our daughter and sets a fine example, but we are lucky we can do that.

Did you miss the recent attempt at controlling the maximum calories kids were allowed to eat at school and the subsequent videos from student athletes who were not getting enough to eat?

What's wrong with milk? Again, this is why I feel that the clean eating approach is way off. There was a thread this morning from a woman complaining because her kid's doctor told her to start giving her butter in an attempt to get her to put on weight. Her reaction was to worry about cholesterol. It's absurd. Kids need the fat and protein milk provides and it's a very convenient source of those nutrients.

I did miss that. Good to know! My beef with that is that a healthier lunch often would not pass the minimum, but kids can eat pizza and fruit cocktail and that passes.
I wasn't saying there is something wrong with milk. I'm saying there should be other options. And what do kids get? Chocolate milk LOADED with sugar. That doesn't exactly send me into a panic, but with everything else being laden with sugar and the availability of soda in vending machines, I don't think it's good.
I'm not trying to be militant about it. Like I said, it just gives me an icky feeling. The healthier options just aren't even there.
Again it's a choice, but it's not really in the hands of parents, it's up to the kids.
I respectfully disagree that anyone NEEDS milk. I grew up on it, and we used to drink a gallon every two days or so in my household, but it seems silly to me that we would require the milk of another animal to survive. I know it's the norm, but it's certainly not my normal. There is nothing in milk I can't get elsewhere in my diet.
No matter what a doctor says, a know it all patient will refute it. The woman freaking out about her kids' cholesterol is obviously missing the point that there is another concern that the doctor finds more urgent. She can also get a second opinion if she so desires, only to refute that too.

RE: conniej
These are the kind of things I find so interesting. I know, I know, I know that we can lose weight eating crap. The assumption gets made here, and in the "real world" for me, as I am still heavy, that we ONLY want to lose weight. I have said it so many times I am starting to get on my own nerves, but losing weight is awesome, I'm excited about it, but it is a BYPRODUCT of being healthy. I think many of the people who preach clean eating, no processed junk, or whatever you want to call it feel the same way. Most KNOW you can lose weight at a deficit. Some don't, but it has been done to death. They will figure it out. Many would say there is no proven reason to avoid processed food and that it is extreme. I feel like we consume enough artificial, man made chemical abominations on accident, that if we can avoid having them on purpose, we should. It seems extreme to me that people would vilify that in favor of what is faster, cheaper, and easier if the subject has the ability and desire to do otherwise.

I couldn't agree more. It is heartbreaking when you actually start seeing sick sick sick children--then look at what we are feeding them....as a parent--I am so grateful to get a wake up call early in my children's lives! It has never been about losing weight for me. Yes--that has been a happy benefit....but I am enjoying the steps of the trip from here to there!! I am glad to see that you are too! As are many people on this thread!

I think what kids are fed at school alone is absolutely horrid. There is a minimum amount of calories that need to be provided in school lunch. Ok, fine.
Why is there not a maximum? That's not cool.
So kids eat corn, corn, corn, and more corn in everything, as well as anything else subsidized. I'm not going to touch the quality of meat served in schools, or the fact that milk is often the only option (it was when I was in school) because I do not eat those for personal reasons, and my bias would show. I do feel like they could do better by our children by not serving Grade F meat, however.
Schools need money, so they have vending machines. Great.
Then the US Gov't classifies pizza as a vegetable. Are you just f***ing with us now?
Then they say the solution is to tell kids to go out and play. Yeah, well, we on MFP know that if you eat a 1,700 calorie lunch, that would be a ***** for anyone to burn off. The trick is to not consume it in the first place.
You can tell me all day that it's about choices and parenting, and I'll agree with you wholeheartedly. It still makes me feel icky that kids are surrounded by that garbage. Even if a parent ate every single meal with their child and promoted healthy food at every single sitting, the same child will have 90% of marketing directed at them be for junk food. It's hardly impossible to feed a child what they should eat, but the odds are stacked against many of us. We have Netflix, but no cable, so we can avoid our four year old being inundated with marketing. My husband stays home with our daughter and sets a fine example, but we are lucky we can do that.

It depends on the school district-my kid's school actually has a pretty decent menu. But, I still pack all their lunches and they bring water because it's cheaper The school also does not have any kind of vending machines (elementary school). As far as marketing goes though-we don't have a tv at all and my kids still know what the 'cool' pair of shoes, tv stars are etc etc. If your kids go to any kind of school with other children they will be inundated with marketing via the other kids

It's like porn.

I can't define it. But I know it when I see it.

Baby.

That is absolutely beautiful.
I'm actually pretty sure you quoted a Supreme Court justice. I like your brain.