Can we please settle on at least a loose definition of...

13

Replies

  • BeachIron
    BeachIron Posts: 6,490 Member
    I know this is TL:DR, but let me try to explain, in my opinion, why this discussion is pointless and a waste of time. The very premise of this approach is that "clean eating" necessarily means "healthy eating." That assumption is built into any discussion of this subject and each person is going to bring their own beliefs to their attempt at providing a definition of "clean". So ask yourself, is there a definition of clean eating that I can agree to that includes unhealthy foods? If not, then why bother with the definition of "clean" and just simply agree to use "healthy?" This at least avoids the semantic arguments that seem to only add to the length of these threads.

    We often also see an added premise in between "clean = healthy" and instead we see "clean = unprocessed = healthy." And, of course, we have the same problem with the definition of "processed" as no one pushing this approach is going to agree to a definition of the word "processed" that includes healthy foods. I think it also just tends to confuse people as once you agree that "processed = unhealthy" then you see the arguments against things like whole wheat pasta and canned tomatoes, get reduced to "well it is processed therefore it must be bad for you." Again, nothing is added to the discussion of healthy foods with these terms.

    Next, there is the problem with discussing healthy "food." No individual food is healthy or unhealthy unless you consider how it fits into one's overall diet. Is fruit healthy? Is pasta healthy? Are vegetables healthy? As part of a balanced diet, yes, of course, but we don't advocate eating only vegetables anymore than we advocate eating only ice cream. The mix of foods is what matters.

    The reality is it is very difficult to reduce any discussion of healthy eating to a point where it does not include a discussion of macronutrients, fiber and micronutrients. Personally, I think IIFYM and flexible dieting are a step in the right direction, but I do worry more than just my macros. I like the idea though that it doesn't demonize food, and instead focuses on a person's overall diet, and I'm sorry but that is a step so many people just seem to refuse to make to their own detriment.
    I think this is a very valid point. However, is it wrong to have a discussion about it? I find other people's point of views to be interesting. As in any conversation someone may not be interested in having with me, they have the choice not to participate. I think the actual advice I have seen you give is blunt, but wise. I'm no delicate flower, so I can appreciate that.
    But I can not wrap my head around something:
    The only reason I remember who you are is because I've seen so many of your posts, and you continuously say that whatever thread you're in is pointless. Why. are. you. there? I really don't get it. It seems like you are consistently annoyed. Why punish yourself? Why punish others? I think many threads are meaningless too..... so, I just don't read further.

    I'm here because I'm interested in my health and fitness and I actually enjoy these discussions. There are certain threads though where people talk past each other for page upon page and don't accomplish much in the process. I'd like to see this discussion move from the semantic argument of the definition of "clean" to the more substantive argument of what constitutes a healthy diet. My answer to your question was my honest attempt at explaining why I think the derail happens to nearly every clean eating thread. It's gotten to the point where someone cannot post a success thread that mentions fun food without being attacked for not eating clean.

    And yes, there are threads where I want to shake someone's thinking up by being brutally blunt. Losing weight and getting fit are not always easy and I don't think it hurts to remind people that they just have to push through it.
  • Meg_Shirley_86
    Meg_Shirley_86 Posts: 275 Member
    RE: conniej
    These are the kind of things I find so interesting. I know, I know, I know that we can lose weight eating crap. The assumption gets made here, and in the "real world" for me, as I am still heavy, that we ONLY want to lose weight. I have said it so many times I am starting to get on my own nerves, but losing weight is awesome, I'm excited about it, but it is a BYPRODUCT of being healthy. I think many of the people who preach clean eating, no processed junk, or whatever you want to call it feel the same way. Most KNOW you can lose weight at a deficit. Some don't, but it has been done to death. They will figure it out. Many would say there is no proven reason to avoid processed food and that it is extreme. I feel like we consume enough artificial, man made chemical abominations on accident, that if we can avoid having them on purpose, we should. It seems extreme to me that people would vilify that in favor of what is faster, cheaper, and easier if the subject has the ability and desire to do otherwise.
  • momzeeee
    momzeeee Posts: 475 Member
    my definition:

    Pretty much anything that hasn't been dropped on the floor.

    but then again... we could argue the 5 second rule.

    :laugh:

    Meh, I don't do labels. I follow a primal leaning diet, but don't label myself that way because I can't stand labeling (and not just in food-drives me nuts in the 'mommy' world how big labeling is ugh!). I. eat. food. period. :)
  • Meg_Shirley_86
    Meg_Shirley_86 Posts: 275 Member
    Well said, Beachiron. I get the same sort of frustration. I've caught myself reading page after page of responses with essentially two sides using the same buzzwords and realized I should probably get back to work and back out of it. It is frustrating that most topics don't seem to really explore any deeper than the surface. I don't know if you do this already, as I have only come across your posts by chance, but you would probably be a good person to start a thread like that (one that went well, I mean). I struggle with it because I feel that I have to list about 50 disclaimers about my intentions to keep the thread from spiraling out of control with people blasting the same speech they use every time they get the chance. It ends up really long-winded, and that's not even how I speak IRL, I prefer to be succinct. People are chomping at the bit to dismiss what anyone else says, and I often feel that they glaze over what they have read in favor of attacking the person, even if the person admits they are doing something wrong and are asking for guidance.
  • conniedj
    conniedj Posts: 470 Member
    RE: conniej
    These are the kind of things I find so interesting. I know, I know, I know that we can lose weight eating crap. The assumption gets made here, and in the "real world" for me, as I am still heavy, that we ONLY want to lose weight. I have said it so many times I am starting to get on my own nerves, but losing weight is awesome, I'm excited about it, but it is a BYPRODUCT of being healthy. I think many of the people who preach clean eating, no processed junk, or whatever you want to call it feel the same way. Most KNOW you can lose weight at a deficit. Some don't, but it has been done to death. They will figure it out. Many would say there is no proven reason to avoid processed food and that it is extreme. I feel like we consume enough artificial, man made chemical abominations on accident, that if we can avoid having them on purpose, we should. It seems extreme to me that people would vilify that in favor of what is faster, cheaper, and easier if the subject has the ability and desire to do otherwise.

    I couldn't agree more. It is heartbreaking when you actually start seeing sick sick sick children--then look at what we are feeding them....as a parent--I am so grateful to get a wake up call early in my children's lives! It has never been about losing weight for me. Yes--that has been a happy benefit....but I am enjoying the steps of the trip from here to there!! I am glad to see that you are too! As are many people on this thread!
  • redheaddee
    redheaddee Posts: 2,005 Member
    I see where you are coming from, but it's never going to happen. To a vegan, beef is going to be 'dirty' but to someone eating a Paleo style diet grains are 'dirty'.

    Wouldn't it be easier to stop using arbitrary labels? Who cares if your food is "clean" or not? Just eat what YOU want to eat.

    Hear, hear!! :drinker:
    Folks need to quit frakking worrying about what others eat and focus on their own hand-to-mouth.
  • bcattoes
    bcattoes Posts: 17,299 Member
    Clean eating.
    Processed food.

    I'm going to bet the answer is no.
  • BeachIron
    BeachIron Posts: 6,490 Member
    Well said, Beachiron. I get the same sort of frustration. I've caught myself reading page after page of responses with essentially two sides using the same buzzwords and realized I should probably get back to work and back out of it. It is frustrating that most topics don't seem to really explore any deeper than the surface. I don't know if you do this already, as I have only come across your posts by chance, but you would probably be a good person to start a thread like that (one that went well, I mean). I struggle with it because I feel that I have to list about 50 disclaimers about my intentions to keep the thread from spiraling out of control with people blasting the same speech they use every time they get the chance. It ends up really long-winded, and that's not even how I speak IRL, I prefer to be succinct. People are chomping at the bit to dismiss what anyone else says, and I often feel that they glaze over what they have read in favor of attacking the person, even if the person admits they are doing something wrong and are asking for guidance.

    Certain subjects are doomed to derail. Again, I was just trying to explain the "why" as I think it's futile to try and have intelligent and well thought out debate on certain (read most all) subjects in the forums.

    I will say that I am not a "clean" eater though I do eat a well balanced diet. I eat cookies, ice cream, canned pasta sauce, bread, pasta, pizza and hamburgers, and I drink beer, whiskey and milk. I do not believe any of that in the context of my diet will harm me.
  • James_1954
    James_1954 Posts: 187 Member
    ... and I'm kind of "hangry" at the moment.

    I have nothing to say about "clean" vs. not-"clean." Instead, I want to say your being hangry is very, very funny. I've been hangry before myself, but didn't have a word for it. Now I do. Thanks!
  • Meg_Shirley_86
    Meg_Shirley_86 Posts: 275 Member
    RE: conniej
    These are the kind of things I find so interesting. I know, I know, I know that we can lose weight eating crap. The assumption gets made here, and in the "real world" for me, as I am still heavy, that we ONLY want to lose weight. I have said it so many times I am starting to get on my own nerves, but losing weight is awesome, I'm excited about it, but it is a BYPRODUCT of being healthy. I think many of the people who preach clean eating, no processed junk, or whatever you want to call it feel the same way. Most KNOW you can lose weight at a deficit. Some don't, but it has been done to death. They will figure it out. Many would say there is no proven reason to avoid processed food and that it is extreme. I feel like we consume enough artificial, man made chemical abominations on accident, that if we can avoid having them on purpose, we should. It seems extreme to me that people would vilify that in favor of what is faster, cheaper, and easier if the subject has the ability and desire to do otherwise.

    I couldn't agree more. It is heartbreaking when you actually start seeing sick sick sick children--then look at what we are feeding them....as a parent--I am so grateful to get a wake up call early in my children's lives! It has never been about losing weight for me. Yes--that has been a happy benefit....but I am enjoying the steps of the trip from here to there!! I am glad to see that you are too! As are many people on this thread!
    I think what kids are fed at school alone is absolutely horrid. There is a minimum amount of calories that need to be provided in school lunch. Ok, fine.
    Why is there not a maximum? That's not cool.
    So kids eat corn, corn, corn, and more corn in everything, as well as anything else subsidized. I'm not going to touch the quality of meat served in schools, or the fact that milk is often the only option (it was when I was in school) because I do not eat those for personal reasons, and my bias would show. I do feel like they could do better by our children by not serving Grade F meat, however.
    Schools need money, so they have vending machines. Great.
    Then the US Gov't classifies pizza as a vegetable. Are you just f***ing with us now?
    Then they say the solution is to tell kids to go out and play. Yeah, well, we on MFP know that if you eat a 1,700 calorie lunch, that would be a ***** for anyone to burn off. The trick is to not consume it in the first place.
    You can tell me all day that it's about choices and parenting, and I'll agree with you wholeheartedly. It still makes me feel icky that kids are surrounded by that garbage. Even if a parent ate every single meal with their child and promoted healthy food at every single sitting, the same child will have 90% of marketing directed at them be for junk food. It's hardly impossible to feed a child what they should eat, but the odds are stacked against many of us. We have Netflix, but no cable, so we can avoid our four year old being inundated with marketing. My husband stays home with our daughter and sets a fine example, but we are lucky we can do that.
  • ssteinbring677
    ssteinbring677 Posts: 158 Member

    'Processed' food, to me, is definitely not just ANYTHING that's been packaged (veggies in a bag for example), that's just a ridiculous assertion made by people who are bothered by the fact that you don't eat the way they think you should eat. Or people who just like an argument for the sake of it. 'Processed' quite clearly implies foods such as microwave meals, foods with a bunch of random chemicals thrown in etc, food that has gone through a significant amount of processing to add in extra ingredients... not just putting something natural in a bag!

    I think the definitions of 'clean' and 'processed' are extremely clear, and it's basically common sense which is which. People just can't seem to pass up the opportunity for an argument... as much as I can't stand it, I guess that's the nature of the internet :/

    I understand what you are saying here, but how do items like organic microwave meals (Amy's for example) fit into the definition? From Amy's Website:
    Amy’s food tastes so good because it’s made from the kind of real food ingredients that people use in their own kitchens…no additives, no preservatives, no GMOs. If a child can’t pronounce it, you won’t find it on an Amy’s label.

    It is definitely more than just putting vegetables in a bag and freezing them, and it is microwavable, but I could make something similar to their food at home without needing to buy a bag (vial?) of Polysorbate 80, etc.

    I am genuinely curious as I think it is a major grey area... it is the kind of food that I would consider non- or minimally- processed but others would avoid.

    Hmmm, I'm not so sure about this one actually. As a relatively clean eater I wouldn't have a problem eating packaged meals like that. It probably wouldn't be my first choice of meal, but I wouldn't kick up a fuss if I had to eat it. I think foods like that just come down to personal preference - if you consider it to be within your own definition of clean, then by all means include it in your diet. If I looked at the label and saw that everything on it was real food and there were no additives then I wouldn't have a problem eating it and I would probably consider it 'clean'! :) I wasn't aware you actually got organic microwave meals like that - I might actually look into trying some of them! It'd be a hell of a lot easier than cooking everything from scratch all the time!! :P

    For me, if it has any ingredients in it that you can't pronounce and don't know what they are...it's likely processed. Any food with less than, say, 3-4 ingredients I would not consider clean.
  • BeachIron
    BeachIron Posts: 6,490 Member

    'Processed' food, to me, is definitely not just ANYTHING that's been packaged (veggies in a bag for example), that's just a ridiculous assertion made by people who are bothered by the fact that you don't eat the way they think you should eat. Or people who just like an argument for the sake of it. 'Processed' quite clearly implies foods such as microwave meals, foods with a bunch of random chemicals thrown in etc, food that has gone through a significant amount of processing to add in extra ingredients... not just putting something natural in a bag!

    I think the definitions of 'clean' and 'processed' are extremely clear, and it's basically common sense which is which. People just can't seem to pass up the opportunity for an argument... as much as I can't stand it, I guess that's the nature of the internet :/

    I understand what you are saying here, but how do items like organic microwave meals (Amy's for example) fit into the definition? From Amy's Website:
    Amy’s food tastes so good because it’s made from the kind of real food ingredients that people use in their own kitchens…no additives, no preservatives, no GMOs. If a child can’t pronounce it, you won’t find it on an Amy’s label.

    It is definitely more than just putting vegetables in a bag and freezing them, and it is microwavable, but I could make something similar to their food at home without needing to buy a bag (vial?) of Polysorbate 80, etc.

    I am genuinely curious as I think it is a major grey area... it is the kind of food that I would consider non- or minimally- processed but others would avoid.

    Hmmm, I'm not so sure about this one actually. As a relatively clean eater I wouldn't have a problem eating packaged meals like that. It probably wouldn't be my first choice of meal, but I wouldn't kick up a fuss if I had to eat it. I think foods like that just come down to personal preference - if you consider it to be within your own definition of clean, then by all means include it in your diet. If I looked at the label and saw that everything on it was real food and there were no additives then I wouldn't have a problem eating it and I would probably consider it 'clean'! :) I wasn't aware you actually got organic microwave meals like that - I might actually look into trying some of them! It'd be a hell of a lot easier than cooking everything from scratch all the time!! :P

    For me, if it has any ingredients in it that you can't pronounce and don't know what they are...it's likely processed. Any food with less than, say, 3-4 ingredients I would not consider clean.

    I'm all for improving my vocabulary to help me eat yummier foods.
  • ssteinbring677
    ssteinbring677 Posts: 158 Member

    'Processed' food, to me, is definitely not just ANYTHING that's been packaged (veggies in a bag for example), that's just a ridiculous assertion made by people who are bothered by the fact that you don't eat the way they think you should eat. Or people who just like an argument for the sake of it. 'Processed' quite clearly implies foods such as microwave meals, foods with a bunch of random chemicals thrown in etc, food that has gone through a significant amount of processing to add in extra ingredients... not just putting something natural in a bag!

    I think the definitions of 'clean' and 'processed' are extremely clear, and it's basically common sense which is which. People just can't seem to pass up the opportunity for an argument... as much as I can't stand it, I guess that's the nature of the internet :/

    I understand what you are saying here, but how do items like organic microwave meals (Amy's for example) fit into the definition? From Amy's Website:
    Amy’s food tastes so good because it’s made from the kind of real food ingredients that people use in their own kitchens…no additives, no preservatives, no GMOs. If a child can’t pronounce it, you won’t find it on an Amy’s label.

    It is definitely more than just putting vegetables in a bag and freezing them, and it is microwavable, but I could make something similar to their food at home without needing to buy a bag (vial?) of Polysorbate 80, etc.

    I am genuinely curious as I think it is a major grey area... it is the kind of food that I would consider non- or minimally- processed but others would avoid.

    Hmmm, I'm not so sure about this one actually. As a relatively clean eater I wouldn't have a problem eating packaged meals like that. It probably wouldn't be my first choice of meal, but I wouldn't kick up a fuss if I had to eat it. I think foods like that just come down to personal preference - if you consider it to be within your own definition of clean, then by all means include it in your diet. If I looked at the label and saw that everything on it was real food and there were no additives then I wouldn't have a problem eating it and I would probably consider it 'clean'! :) I wasn't aware you actually got organic microwave meals like that - I might actually look into trying some of them! It'd be a hell of a lot easier than cooking everything from scratch all the time!! :P

    For me, if it has any ingredients in it that you can't pronounce and don't know what they are...it's likely processed. Any food with less than, say, 3-4 ingredients I would not consider clean.

    I'm all for improving my vocabulary to help me eat yummier foods.

    Hahaha! Fair enough :)
  • Meg_Shirley_86
    Meg_Shirley_86 Posts: 275 Member
    *Duplicate
  • BeachIron
    BeachIron Posts: 6,490 Member
    RE: conniej
    These are the kind of things I find so interesting. I know, I know, I know that we can lose weight eating crap. The assumption gets made here, and in the "real world" for me, as I am still heavy, that we ONLY want to lose weight. I have said it so many times I am starting to get on my own nerves, but losing weight is awesome, I'm excited about it, but it is a BYPRODUCT of being healthy. I think many of the people who preach clean eating, no processed junk, or whatever you want to call it feel the same way. Most KNOW you can lose weight at a deficit. Some don't, but it has been done to death. They will figure it out. Many would say there is no proven reason to avoid processed food and that it is extreme. I feel like we consume enough artificial, man made chemical abominations on accident, that if we can avoid having them on purpose, we should. It seems extreme to me that people would vilify that in favor of what is faster, cheaper, and easier if the subject has the ability and desire to do otherwise.

    I couldn't agree more. It is heartbreaking when you actually start seeing sick sick sick children--then look at what we are feeding them....as a parent--I am so grateful to get a wake up call early in my children's lives! It has never been about losing weight for me. Yes--that has been a happy benefit....but I am enjoying the steps of the trip from here to there!! I am glad to see that you are too! As are many people on this thread!
    I think what kids are fed at school alone is absolutely horrid. There is a minimum amount of calories that need to be provided in school lunch. Ok, fine.
    Why is there not a maximum? That's not cool.

    So kids eat corn, corn, corn, and more corn in everything, as well as anything else subsidized. I'm not going to touch the quality of meat served in schools, or the fact that milk is often the only option (it was when I was in school) because I do not eat those for personal reasons, and my bias would show. I do feel like they could do better by our children by not serving Grade F meat, however.
    Schools need money, so they have vending machines. Great.
    Then the US Gov't classifies pizza as a vegetable. Are you just f***ing with us now?
    Then they say the solution is to tell kids to go out and play. Yeah, well, we on MFP know that if you eat a 1,700 calorie lunch, that would be a ***** for anyone to burn off. The trick is to not consume it in the first place.
    You can tell me all day that it's about choices and parenting, and I'll agree with you wholeheartedly. It still makes me feel icky that kids are surrounded by that garbage. Even if a parent ate every single meal with their child and promoted healthy food at every single sitting, the same child will have 90% of marketing directed at them be for junk food. It's hardly impossible to feed a child what they should eat, but the odds are stacked against many of us. We have Netflix, but no cable, so we can avoid our four year old being inundated with marketing. My husband stays home with our daughter and sets a fine example, but we are lucky we can do that.

    Did you miss the recent attempt at controlling the maximum calories kids were allowed to eat at school and the subsequent videos from student athletes who were not getting enough to eat?

    What's wrong with milk? Again, this is why I feel that the clean eating approach is way off. There was a thread this morning from a woman complaining because her kid's doctor told her to start giving her butter in an attempt to get her to put on weight. Her reaction was to worry about cholesterol. It's absurd. Kids need the fat and protein milk provides and it's a very convenient source of those nutrients.
  • magerum
    magerum Posts: 12,589 Member
    No food is inherently good or bad. Anyone who tries to label any food as such is 1) wrong 2) contributing the larger problem.
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,343 Member
    I'm all for improving my vocabulary to help me eat yummier foods.
    Me too - but "orthorexia" is not one of those words which leads to said yummier foods. :smile:
  • momzeeee
    momzeeee Posts: 475 Member
    RE: conniej
    These are the kind of things I find so interesting. I know, I know, I know that we can lose weight eating crap. The assumption gets made here, and in the "real world" for me, as I am still heavy, that we ONLY want to lose weight. I have said it so many times I am starting to get on my own nerves, but losing weight is awesome, I'm excited about it, but it is a BYPRODUCT of being healthy. I think many of the people who preach clean eating, no processed junk, or whatever you want to call it feel the same way. Most KNOW you can lose weight at a deficit. Some don't, but it has been done to death. They will figure it out. Many would say there is no proven reason to avoid processed food and that it is extreme. I feel like we consume enough artificial, man made chemical abominations on accident, that if we can avoid having them on purpose, we should. It seems extreme to me that people would vilify that in favor of what is faster, cheaper, and easier if the subject has the ability and desire to do otherwise.

    I couldn't agree more. It is heartbreaking when you actually start seeing sick sick sick children--then look at what we are feeding them....as a parent--I am so grateful to get a wake up call early in my children's lives! It has never been about losing weight for me. Yes--that has been a happy benefit....but I am enjoying the steps of the trip from here to there!! I am glad to see that you are too! As are many people on this thread!
    I think what kids are fed at school alone is absolutely horrid. There is a minimum amount of calories that need to be provided in school lunch. Ok, fine.
    Why is there not a maximum? That's not cool.
    So kids eat corn, corn, corn, and more corn in everything, as well as anything else subsidized. I'm not going to touch the quality of meat served in schools, or the fact that milk is often the only option (it was when I was in school) because I do not eat those for personal reasons, and my bias would show. I do feel like they could do better by our children by not serving Grade F meat, however.
    Schools need money, so they have vending machines. Great.
    Then the US Gov't classifies pizza as a vegetable. Are you just f***ing with us now?
    Then they say the solution is to tell kids to go out and play. Yeah, well, we on MFP know that if you eat a 1,700 calorie lunch, that would be a ***** for anyone to burn off. The trick is to not consume it in the first place.
    You can tell me all day that it's about choices and parenting, and I'll agree with you wholeheartedly. It still makes me feel icky that kids are surrounded by that garbage. Even if a parent ate every single meal with their child and promoted healthy food at every single sitting, the same child will have 90% of marketing directed at them be for junk food. It's hardly impossible to feed a child what they should eat, but the odds are stacked against many of us. We have Netflix, but no cable, so we can avoid our four year old being inundated with marketing. My husband stays home with our daughter and sets a fine example, but we are lucky we can do that.

    It depends on the school district-my kid's school actually has a pretty decent menu. But, I still pack all their lunches and they bring water because it's cheaper :) The school also does not have any kind of vending machines (elementary school). As far as marketing goes though-we don't have a tv at all and my kids still know what the 'cool' pair of shoes, tv stars are etc etc. If your kids go to any kind of school with other children they will be inundated with marketing via the other kids :tongue:
  • herblackwings39
    herblackwings39 Posts: 3,930 Member
    I don't think we have a definition section here.

    I find "clean eating" to be a really obnoxious term. It implies that anything else is "dirty".

    I tend to agree with you. It doesn't really annoy me, but I'm not convinced that it means much either. I think labels like this make the "others" more likely to feel defensive about their choices. I cop to being a vegan on here, because I like to be open about my bias, rather than hide it. (I REALLY, REALLY don't care what you eat, I have way more in my life to be concerned about than that.)

    In person though, you have to pretty much pry it out of me as to my diet choices. I know veg people are known for being obnoxious about it, making omnis defensive, which makes them attack veg people, which makes the veg people more obnoxious. It seems like this is pretty similar.

    I've never had an issue with the average person of any eating plan. If veganism, vegetarianism, paleo, "clean" works for someone that is fabulous and I'm more than happy for them. I don't usually feel judged either, unless I run across a particularly militant minority who push and push as if their way (whatever it may be) is the be all end all and should be considered gospel truth by everyone. I find that annoying.
  • mahanaibu
    mahanaibu Posts: 505 Member
    Here's an attempt and processed foods: they come in a package, they have labels, they have lobbies, there is an industry associated with them, they contain ingredients you cannot pronounce and your grandparents wouldn't have identified as food, they are made in a factory. What am I missing?

    IMHO - GMO foods count as processed foods, but I realize that's a whole different can of worms. For me, eating clean means not eating heavily processed foods. As a vegan, I view meat as a heavily processed food. Conversely, I'm not worried about my consumption of steel cut oats or packaged quinoa.

    I do not believe you can't be healthy eating processed foods. I eat them, I'm just selective about what I eat. I'd love to have my own organic garden, but the choices I've made re: how to live my life don't leave space for that activity. Maybe someday they will.

    In my judgment, I'm happier and healthier eating some Beyond Meat Chicken strips than I am eating Fritos.

    This list isn't all inclusive and I'm sure there are holes in my logic that someone can and will try to drive a semi through. I'm okay with that ;)

    Milk comes in a package and has a lobby. Olive oil, too.

    There can be reasonable disagreement about what a processed food is. Instant oatmeal is definitely processed. steel-cut oats, minimally processed. and what about rolled oats? pick your spot.

    If it's something our ancestors wouldn't have recognized as food 500 years ago, that's a pretty good starting point. But I'm sure there are exceptions to that rule, too.
  • shannashannabobana
    shannashannabobana Posts: 625 Member
    As a vegan, I view meat as a heavily processed food.
    That doesn't really make any sense. You view it as processed just because you don't eat it? Because it is skinned, diced, whatever? What if I take a fish out of the ocean and pop it in an oven.

    I don't consider chopping, heating, freezing, etc.. to be processing. I don't consider everything sold in the grocery store to be 'processed' simply because somebody transported it and slapped a label on it.

    I don't think you'll ever get people to agree on any of this though.
  • Meg_Shirley_86
    Meg_Shirley_86 Posts: 275 Member
    RE: conniej
    These are the kind of things I find so interesting. I know, I know, I know that we can lose weight eating crap. The assumption gets made here, and in the "real world" for me, as I am still heavy, that we ONLY want to lose weight. I have said it so many times I am starting to get on my own nerves, but losing weight is awesome, I'm excited about it, but it is a BYPRODUCT of being healthy. I think many of the people who preach clean eating, no processed junk, or whatever you want to call it feel the same way. Most KNOW you can lose weight at a deficit. Some don't, but it has been done to death. They will figure it out. Many would say there is no proven reason to avoid processed food and that it is extreme. I feel like we consume enough artificial, man made chemical abominations on accident, that if we can avoid having them on purpose, we should. It seems extreme to me that people would vilify that in favor of what is faster, cheaper, and easier if the subject has the ability and desire to do otherwise.

    I couldn't agree more. It is heartbreaking when you actually start seeing sick sick sick children--then look at what we are feeding them....as a parent--I am so grateful to get a wake up call early in my children's lives! It has never been about losing weight for me. Yes--that has been a happy benefit....but I am enjoying the steps of the trip from here to there!! I am glad to see that you are too! As are many people on this thread!
    I think what kids are fed at school alone is absolutely horrid. There is a minimum amount of calories that need to be provided in school lunch. Ok, fine.
    Why is there not a maximum? That's not cool.

    So kids eat corn, corn, corn, and more corn in everything, as well as anything else subsidized. I'm not going to touch the quality of meat served in schools, or the fact that milk is often the only option (it was when I was in school) because I do not eat those for personal reasons, and my bias would show. I do feel like they could do better by our children by not serving Grade F meat, however.
    Schools need money, so they have vending machines. Great.
    Then the US Gov't classifies pizza as a vegetable. Are you just f***ing with us now?
    Then they say the solution is to tell kids to go out and play. Yeah, well, we on MFP know that if you eat a 1,700 calorie lunch, that would be a ***** for anyone to burn off. The trick is to not consume it in the first place.
    You can tell me all day that it's about choices and parenting, and I'll agree with you wholeheartedly. It still makes me feel icky that kids are surrounded by that garbage. Even if a parent ate every single meal with their child and promoted healthy food at every single sitting, the same child will have 90% of marketing directed at them be for junk food. It's hardly impossible to feed a child what they should eat, but the odds are stacked against many of us. We have Netflix, but no cable, so we can avoid our four year old being inundated with marketing. My husband stays home with our daughter and sets a fine example, but we are lucky we can do that.

    Did you miss the recent attempt at controlling the maximum calories kids were allowed to eat at school and the subsequent videos from student athletes who were not getting enough to eat?

    What's wrong with milk? Again, this is why I feel that the clean eating approach is way off. There was a thread this morning from a woman complaining because her kid's doctor told her to start giving her butter in an attempt to get her to put on weight. Her reaction was to worry about cholesterol. It's absurd. Kids need the fat and protein milk provides and it's a very convenient source of those nutrients.

    I did miss that. Good to know! My beef with that is that a healthier lunch often would not pass the minimum, but kids can eat pizza and fruit cocktail and that passes.
    I wasn't saying there is something wrong with milk. I'm saying there should be other options. And what do kids get? Chocolate milk LOADED with sugar. That doesn't exactly send me into a panic, but with everything else being laden with sugar and the availability of soda in vending machines, I don't think it's good.
    I'm not trying to be militant about it. Like I said, it just gives me an icky feeling. The healthier options just aren't even there.
    Again it's a choice, but it's not really in the hands of parents, it's up to the kids.
    I respectfully disagree that anyone NEEDS milk. I grew up on it, and we used to drink a gallon every two days or so in my household, but it seems silly to me that we would require the milk of another animal to survive. I know it's the norm, but it's certainly not my normal. There is nothing in milk I can't get elsewhere in my diet.
    No matter what a doctor says, a know it all patient will refute it. The woman freaking out about her kids' cholesterol is obviously missing the point that there is another concern that the doctor finds more urgent. She can also get a second opinion if she so desires, only to refute that too.
  • Meg_Shirley_86
    Meg_Shirley_86 Posts: 275 Member
    As a vegan, I view meat as a heavily processed food.
    That doesn't really make any sense. You view it as processed just because you don't eat it? Because it is skinned, diced, whatever? What if I take a fish out of the ocean and pop it in an oven.

    I don't consider chopping, heating, freezing, etc.. to be processing. I don't consider everything sold in the grocery store to be 'processed' simply because somebody transported it and slapped a label on it.

    I don't think you'll ever get people to agree on any of this though.
    I see your point. I think whoever you quoted may have done better to say that in reverse order. I do not eat meat, and I don't really have an opinion on whether or not it is too "processed". That is up to the people that consume it, in my opinion.
    I am vegan because I am uncomfortable with how meat is produced, but I'm not going to go around calling it dirty and shaming it for the vast majority of people who do consume it. I have been very healthy with animal products in my diet, and very healthy without them. I feel like people who already have a bias against something should be careful with how openly judge other's choices.
  • BeachIron
    BeachIron Posts: 6,490 Member
    RE: conniej
    These are the kind of things I find so interesting. I know, I know, I know that we can lose weight eating crap. The assumption gets made here, and in the "real world" for me, as I am still heavy, that we ONLY want to lose weight. I have said it so many times I am starting to get on my own nerves, but losing weight is awesome, I'm excited about it, but it is a BYPRODUCT of being healthy. I think many of the people who preach clean eating, no processed junk, or whatever you want to call it feel the same way. Most KNOW you can lose weight at a deficit. Some don't, but it has been done to death. They will figure it out. Many would say there is no proven reason to avoid processed food and that it is extreme. I feel like we consume enough artificial, man made chemical abominations on accident, that if we can avoid having them on purpose, we should. It seems extreme to me that people would vilify that in favor of what is faster, cheaper, and easier if the subject has the ability and desire to do otherwise.

    I couldn't agree more. It is heartbreaking when you actually start seeing sick sick sick children--then look at what we are feeding them....as a parent--I am so grateful to get a wake up call early in my children's lives! It has never been about losing weight for me. Yes--that has been a happy benefit....but I am enjoying the steps of the trip from here to there!! I am glad to see that you are too! As are many people on this thread!
    I think what kids are fed at school alone is absolutely horrid. There is a minimum amount of calories that need to be provided in school lunch. Ok, fine.
    Why is there not a maximum? That's not cool.

    So kids eat corn, corn, corn, and more corn in everything, as well as anything else subsidized. I'm not going to touch the quality of meat served in schools, or the fact that milk is often the only option (it was when I was in school) because I do not eat those for personal reasons, and my bias would show. I do feel like they could do better by our children by not serving Grade F meat, however.
    Schools need money, so they have vending machines. Great.
    Then the US Gov't classifies pizza as a vegetable. Are you just f***ing with us now?
    Then they say the solution is to tell kids to go out and play. Yeah, well, we on MFP know that if you eat a 1,700 calorie lunch, that would be a ***** for anyone to burn off. The trick is to not consume it in the first place.
    You can tell me all day that it's about choices and parenting, and I'll agree with you wholeheartedly. It still makes me feel icky that kids are surrounded by that garbage. Even if a parent ate every single meal with their child and promoted healthy food at every single sitting, the same child will have 90% of marketing directed at them be for junk food. It's hardly impossible to feed a child what they should eat, but the odds are stacked against many of us. We have Netflix, but no cable, so we can avoid our four year old being inundated with marketing. My husband stays home with our daughter and sets a fine example, but we are lucky we can do that.

    Did you miss the recent attempt at controlling the maximum calories kids were allowed to eat at school and the subsequent videos from student athletes who were not getting enough to eat?

    What's wrong with milk? Again, this is why I feel that the clean eating approach is way off. There was a thread this morning from a woman complaining because her kid's doctor told her to start giving her butter in an attempt to get her to put on weight. Her reaction was to worry about cholesterol. It's absurd. Kids need the fat and protein milk provides and it's a very convenient source of those nutrients.

    I did miss that. Good to know! My beef with that is that a healthier lunch often would not pass the minimum, but kids can eat pizza and fruit cocktail and that passes.
    I wasn't saying there is something wrong with milk. I'm saying there should be other options. And what do kids get? Chocolate milk LOADED with sugar. That doesn't exactly send me into a panic, but with everything else being laden with sugar and the availability of soda in vending machines, I don't think it's good.
    I'm not trying to be militant about it. Like I said, it just gives me an icky feeling. The healthier options just aren't even there.
    Again it's a choice, but it's not really in the hands of parents, it's up to the kids.
    I respectfully disagree that anyone NEEDS milk. I grew up on it, and we used to drink a gallon every two days or so in my household, but it seems silly to me that we would require the milk of another animal to survive. I know it's the norm, but it's certainly not my normal. There is nothing in milk I can't get elsewhere in my diet.
    No matter what a doctor says, a know it all patient will refute it. The woman freaking out about her kids' cholesterol is obviously missing the point that there is another concern that the doctor finds more urgent. She can also get a second opinion if she so desires, only to refute that too.

    I didn't say that anyone "needs" milk, I said it is a "very convenient source" of fat and protein. To argue that any one food is not necessary to our diet doesn't really move the discussion forward. Do we "need" apples? Or broccoli? Or carrots? No. But these foods do add something to our diets. Wether their nutrient value can be replaced with something else only matters if there is a good reason not to eat them. There is absolutely no legitimate reason to not drink milk unless you don't like it or you are allergic to it. Those are not reasons that give anyone a position to argue that others "shouldn't" drink milk.

    As for school lunches, meh. My kids get plenty of quality nutrition at home so if they choose to eat the pizza at lunch or get a dessert, it doesn't matter. What matters is that I spend a good deal of time talking to my daughters about nutrition and fitness and leading by example. They will eventually grow up and have to face a world full of beliefs that I disagree with and plenty of things that are dangerous for them. By that point, I want them using their own critical thinking skills.
  • shannashannabobana
    shannashannabobana Posts: 625 Member
    Did you miss the recent attempt at controlling the maximum calories kids were allowed to eat at school and the subsequent videos from student athletes who were not getting enough to eat?
    Yeah, turns out a 90lb 4'11 9th grader and a 6' football player/teenage boy have different calorie requirements. Who knew?
    I do not eat meat, and I don't really have an opinion on whether or not it is too "processed".
    Oh I know. I don't have an issue with how anyone chooses to eat, but I may have a difference of opinion as to whether it is terribly healthy :) Meat in and of itself is not something I think of as processed. You can hunt, fish, etc, and come up with meat. I do have some concerns about how some of it is raised, but that's a different question. Just quibbling over terms.
  • conniedj
    conniedj Posts: 470 Member
    RE: conniej
    These are the kind of things I find so interesting. I know, I know, I know that we can lose weight eating crap. The assumption gets made here, and in the "real world" for me, as I am still heavy, that we ONLY want to lose weight. I have said it so many times I am starting to get on my own nerves, but losing weight is awesome, I'm excited about it, but it is a BYPRODUCT of being healthy. I think many of the people who preach clean eating, no processed junk, or whatever you want to call it feel the same way. Most KNOW you can lose weight at a deficit. Some don't, but it has been done to death. They will figure it out. Many would say there is no proven reason to avoid processed food and that it is extreme. I feel like we consume enough artificial, man made chemical abominations on accident, that if we can avoid having them on purpose, we should. It seems extreme to me that people would vilify that in favor of what is faster, cheaper, and easier if the subject has the ability and desire to do otherwise.

    I couldn't agree more. It is heartbreaking when you actually start seeing sick sick sick children--then look at what we are feeding them....as a parent--I am so grateful to get a wake up call early in my children's lives! It has never been about losing weight for me. Yes--that has been a happy benefit....but I am enjoying the steps of the trip from here to there!! I am glad to see that you are too! As are many people on this thread!
    I think what kids are fed at school alone is absolutely horrid. There is a minimum amount of calories that need to be provided in school lunch. Ok, fine.
    Why is there not a maximum? That's not cool.
    So kids eat corn, corn, corn, and more corn in everything, as well as anything else subsidized. I'm not going to touch the quality of meat served in schools, or the fact that milk is often the only option (it was when I was in school) because I do not eat those for personal reasons, and my bias would show. I do feel like they could do better by our children by not serving Grade F meat, however.
    Schools need money, so they have vending machines. Great.
    Then the US Gov't classifies pizza as a vegetable. Are you just f***ing with us now?
    Then they say the solution is to tell kids to go out and play. Yeah, well, we on MFP know that if you eat a 1,700 calorie lunch, that would be a ***** for anyone to burn off. The trick is to not consume it in the first place.
    You can tell me all day that it's about choices and parenting, and I'll agree with you wholeheartedly. It still makes me feel icky that kids are surrounded by that garbage. Even if a parent ate every single meal with their child and promoted healthy food at every single sitting, the same child will have 90% of marketing directed at them be for junk food. It's hardly impossible to feed a child what they should eat, but the odds are stacked against many of us. We have Netflix, but no cable, so we can avoid our four year old being inundated with marketing. My husband stays home with our daughter and sets a fine example, but we are lucky we can do that.

    It depends on the school district-my kid's school actually has a pretty decent menu. But, I still pack all their lunches and they bring water because it's cheaper :) The school also does not have any kind of vending machines (elementary school). As far as marketing goes though-we don't have a tv at all and my kids still know what the 'cool' pair of shoes, tv stars are etc etc. If your kids go to any kind of school with other children they will be inundated with marketing via the other kids :tongue:

    Yes...I love the communities that work together to solve the "pizza is a vegetable" dilemma. There are groups of parents that are taking on the status quo of lunch at school, and creating farms that the kids help to cultivate, harvest, and then eat. Fantastic. We live in the midwest, where the garden opportunities are quite so great. But we are looking at other options....and when I say "we" I mean a bunch of moms and dads in the community who are like minded in food for their kids.

    To me you can't just talk about the problems, then politely agree to disagree. When issues become important enough....you chose to do something about it. I am one of those!

    And regarding marketing.....yes. Aimed at kids is correct! I was just having a great conversation with another parent. She is a graphics artist for one of the biggest food conglomerates in the world. She laments creating gorgeous graphics aimed at kids to eat bad food. To me? Don't shoot the messenger. Change isn't the responsibility of one person.
  • kdsp2911
    kdsp2911 Posts: 170 Member
    How about if it grows or is created in nature, eat it. If you had to pour it from a box and you can't read the ingredients on said box...it's not clean.
  • This content has been removed.
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,343 Member
    How about if it grows or is created in nature, eat it. If you had to pour it from a box and you can't read the ingredients on said box...it's not clean.
    Nope, doesn't work for me unless you can find a tree or animal which produces protein shakes.
  • myofibril
    myofibril Posts: 4,500 Member
    It's like porn.

    I can't define it. But I know it when I see it.

    Baby.

    That is absolutely beautiful.
    I'm actually pretty sure you quoted a Supreme Court justice. I like your brain.

    Clever lady ;)