Tell me why? Only serious replies please.

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  • MobOfBricks
    MobOfBricks Posts: 22 Member
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    After following the forums for quite sometime, it seems to me that most of the more educated or more experienced people on here give the following advice:

    1. There is no starvation mode unless you haven't ate in over 48 hours.
    2. There is no magic eating times or amount of meals to eat.
    3. A calorie is a calorie (in regards to energy not nutrition)
    4. The only weight loss formula is calories in < calories out.

    So based on this information, is ok for me to only net under 1000 calories a day? I'm 5'7", 173 pounds, 40% BF, 35 years old, female. I believe my BMR is around 1400 and TDEE is around 1800 to 1900. ( I have a desk job and I use to eat back exercise calories so I calculate my TDEE with light activity). My trainer and I, are doing an extreme cut right now and since starting my net calories are very low. We are trying to rapidly bring down my 40% BF. My trainer is certified, educated, and a pro-body builder so she knows her stuff.

    I don't want a flood of responses that tell me to eat more or to eat TDEE - 20%. I want to legitly know, with back up, what the problem is with me netting less then 1000 calories while trying to lose weight. I know that you need a certain amount of calories just to function but will my body not used the stored stuff if I do not feed it enough? I am told body builders net extremely low prior to shows and it works for them with little to no side effects?

    Some more things to consider, I am making sure I eat at least 100 grams a protein daily. I haven't been eating the healthiest all the time. I do take BCAA supplements to help retain muscle from my extreme calorie burn. Keeping in mind this cut is a phase, so a temperary program to give specific results. Please don't responsed with eat more calories, eat more protien, starvation mode, eat healthier.... etc. Just please give me only serious answers to my question.


    Just because your trainer does shows, is a pro, certified, etc., still doesn't mean jack squat! Trust me on this. It's well talked about in the body building community. Look up names like phd Layne Norton, Lyle Mcdonald, or Kiefer for more information on what really happens as far as bio metabolics goes. I'll give every trainer the benefit of the doubt until until they do or say or have their client do something stupid.

    Only ignorant bodybuilders run very low calories doing a show. Plenty of smart ones run thousands of calories and eat hundreds of grams of carbs right up to show day!

    The term starvation mode is arguable, but what happens is that your metabolism is always going to want to slow down with low calorie intake or with even moderate calorie intake with "high calorie burn" workouts...as it should. It doesn't like or care about exercise or how you feel about what's attractive. It's trying to protect the body and get it into tomorrow. It's not that 48 hours is a magic number, but it takes about 48 to 72 hours for protein break down and other catabolic(self digesting/ slower metabolic) triggers to really take in effect. It's the hormonal triggers that result from not eating or eating very low calories or nutrients that slows down the metabolism to protect you.

    Yes your body runs off of stored fat but REMEMBER...fat is not a complete nutritional product. It gets converted over to glucose to burn for energy in your cells, and it stores SOME vitamins and minerals, not all of them, and it doesn't give possible beneficiary hormonal responses that eating protein and carbs do such as leptin, glucagon, igf, etc., and it doesn't provide NITROGEN...remember that other key life sustaining element? Your body will go catabolic, slow your functions via altering thyroid and brain outputs and rates(which affects about everything else) and strip your muscle to get nitrogen. You need it to rebuild DNA!!!!!! and make VITAL hormones, enzymes, etc. Protein isn't just a word for bodybuilders. But I won't say eat more protein because you said not to. BCAA's help with nitrogen balance but they have no thermic effect. For most people eating more protein sources to get those amino's would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more beneficial, especially for weight loss.

    Then with low calories and low protein you're more apt to lose lean body mass(muscle). We already know about that and how it lowers your furnace.

    There are no magic eating times because why would there be? Your body is directed by hormones in a check and balance kind of way. You eat less, this goes up, you eat more that goes down, vice versa, etc., So over the course of 3 days to a week, you even out any "spike" or late night eating or skipping breakfast or not eating after a workout, by eating a net total of what your body needs. If you have 100 dollars in the bank and you withdraw it all You're at zero for the day. Say you go two days, then you deposit 150. You made 50 bucks. If you had 100, took it all out, then put back 125 the next day, then 25 the day after, you made the same amount of money. So over the course of two days your net affect is the same and unless you're in an extreme situation (bodybuilder for the stage, medical emergency,etc) your body could care less as long as the bills are paid from the account! Body builders, especially those on hormonal assistance may gain a small percentage of advantage with meal timing because they HAVE THE EXTRA HORMONAL POTENTIAL to direct the nutrients to acceptable places. Your body runs on 24 hour cycles but you can train your hormonal outputs by proper total macronutrient intake, so that your hormonal shifts at the end of a few days or a week are the same net effect.

    A calorie is a calorie is technically and scientifically false because the human body is not a closed system.Everything is limited by hormones and there is heat and waste to deal with. But given a healthy body that is devoid of major malfunction or disease, the effects are predictable. This is why TDEE and maintenance levels of calories takes into account that fact that your heart needs to beat, your liver needs to run, that lump of fat in your head(the brain is mostly fat), needs calories, your retina needs calories and nutrients and carbs. Your iris needs carbs. Your skin burns calories. Your cuticles...get the idea...all the stuff we forget about it needs calories AND nutrition. The thermic effect of food is the amount of energy and thus heat that you body must use to digest and deal with food which also can throw off the calorie in/out theory. The more important part of this rule is that when you're tracking, if you're not cheating and you're measuring, you have a baseline to go off of. It doesnt matter if calories in truly equals calories out. If you're not achieving your goals,and again if you're healhty, you adjust your macro nutrient intake and caloric intake from your baseline levels, to get change. Protein is roughly 10 times more work for your body to deal with than fat and carbohydrate, and a positive nitrogen balance is VITAL to keeping metabolism in a favorable position. Guess what's not in carbohydrate and fat. Nitrogen! These are the two top reasons why we shout protein so much! Remember that we LOVE to UNDEREAT AND OVER EXERCISE our selves into a malfunction which changes the hormones, thus changes the rules, due to malfunctioning of metabolic pathways.

    Under-eating and over exercising slows metabolic rate, and over time your hormonal outputs get trained in this lower rate. This is why many overweight people are eating 1000 calories and still not losing weight. How can that be? There bodily functions, thyroid outputs, adrenals, etc., have been lowered to accomodate for the lower input, plus digestive enzymes and hormones as well. So then to lose any more weight they need to eat even less and or exercise even more which of course is even way more unhealthy and down right dangerous, and drives the metabolic rate down even further and or results in sickness.

    Plus way more "trainers" and "body builders" than you probably suspect are on some form of hormonal assistance or they train those that do so they can get away with non optimal protocols. What you are embarking on is a non optimal protocol, and you risk metabolic slow down and only priming your system to store fat later. A more optimal protocol would have you eating more, using the thermic effect of food, the power of carbohydrates and exercising less or without anything resembling "extreme" besides extreme consistency.

    At least you're not in denial of the term temporary. As your achievements or some portion thereof are that much more likely to be temporary. The idea of doing short extreme bouts of exercise or dieting is popular due to before and after pics and bodybuilding trainers(on steroids). These people always gain back considerable weight or lose gains made.

    That was very informative!
    Thank you!
  • walkersallymae
    walkersallymae Posts: 14 Member
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    She may want to consider getting a heart rate monitor to get a better handle on how many calories she is burning. It will also help her stay in her optimal heart rate range so she is burning fat calories. I am using a polar heart rate monitor with the digifit app. They work really well.
  • RealKatieHislop
    RealKatieHislop Posts: 25 Member
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    You have lost 18lbs, whatever way you are doing it seems to be working.

    I am a former anorexic (well i don't believe in former because i don't believe it can go away) I would net around 600 cals a day and I was soooo unhealthy and unhappy. I now have a really low metabolism and a bad stomach, food alergies, you name it. You need to be careful that in your quest to lose weight you aren't harming yourself. I don't need scientific proof i have lived it unfortunately.

    I don't know you so you don't have take my advice but I know My biggest worry when losing weight is putting it all back on again. Slowly but surely will work.

    Hope that helps a little
  • MyChocolateDiet
    MyChocolateDiet Posts: 22,281 Member
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    Just so you know OP the reason I even bother with these types of threads is because I actually did see a girl IRL die on day two of cheer camp from severe calorie restriction in the summertime. We were told that she would have survived had she eaten just one banana. It "kills" me everytime someone says "oh it's not gonna kill me" or "i feel fine?" She looked fine and happy just 2 minutes before and wasn't even a small girl. She was a "base" of a mount that fell down due to her death but as fallen mounts are common everyone resumed where they left off as is the custom. So unfortunately 10 of her teammates have to carry the added burden/guilt of cheering around her dead body during a routine while she lay there lifeless. I was only an onlooker from another team critiquing them as part of our workshops. As a "base" she had quite a bit of body fat on her left to burn and yet it still happened. I don't know the science behind it, all I know is I witnessed it with my own eyes. It's real. It can happen. Some aspects of dieting are okay to tinker with. Some are not. You choose what's logical or worth the risks. Unfortunately I don't have any studies or empirical evidence to back up my story as I did not approach her parents for pic's or coroner's reports when they had to show up to camp to retreive her body. I never imagined ever wishing I had "proof" of that kind of experience. Until sometimes on threads like these.

    By the way... I hope that qualifies as a "serious" enough reply.
  • joleenl
    joleenl Posts: 739 Member
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    My ticker goal was set before I knew my body fat. I am not trying to achieve a goal wieght anymore. I am trying to achieve a BF%



    Then your huge calorie deficit is the absolute wrong way to go about it.

    It's much easier to lose fat while sparing muscle than it is to put that muscle back on later.

    If your goal is a certain body fat %, then you are best served by trying to keep every ounce of lean mass you have.

    I know. Hence the strength training and higher protein, etc.

    So you know your current methods are sub-optimal for achieving your stated goal...... and you are going to continue it anyway.

    OK. Glad you started and perpetuated this thread asking for opinions and facts when you were going to discount them all and keep doing what you're doing all along.

    Thanks for wasting everyone's time.

    Easy. I have yet to have my question answered. My question was (more or less) what are the effects of netting below 1000 calories? And then I asked for back up so I could see how their conclusion was reached. A lot of responces seem to assume I am not eating or eating a VLCD. I am eating a lot of food to get nutrients and vitamins. I just burn off a lot of calories. This is not a everyday thing. I only train 4/7 days a week. This is not a long term thing. Just a cut cycle. I've only done this two days so far Monday and Tuesday. Wednesday is a rest day. Then I will do it Thursday and Friday.

    A lot of people are giving me info on effects of VLCD when in my mind they are different. I am still eating the amount of food needed to function and get the required nutrients. I just am burning more then I am eating.

    I do not want to hurt myself that's why if I could gather supporting evidence to it's negative effects I would stop immediately.

    You do not want to hurt yourself that's why you should make sure a plan is sound and make IT have evidence to back up its efficacy and safety before you proceed with IT not vice versa. You ALMOST have the right idea, here just reverse it. The tried and true is tried and true for a reason. If you are game for experimenting with your own body you should make that NEW idea stand the test of soundness before venturing into it. Does that make sense? No goal body weight or scale number no matter how lofty or reasonable should replace logic. Get it?

    Yes that is true. But 2 days of it won't kill me anyways. Lots of people cycle calories, so if I found out today with a creditable source that it was bad.... I can just eat a bit more the remaining days of the week to balance it out...no? So logically it's ok then.
    just_do_what_you_want_by_tricked1-d3ix75d_large.jpg

    That's really helpful thanks (<-insert sarcasm here).
  • RealKatieHislop
    RealKatieHislop Posts: 25 Member
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    Just so you know OP the reason I even bother with these types of threads is because I actually did see a girl IRL die on day two of cheer camp from severe calorie restriction in the summertime. We were told that she would have survived had she eaten just one banana. It "kills" me everytime someone says "oh it's not gonna kill me" or "i feel fine?" She looked fine and happy just 2 minutes before and wasn't even a small girl. She was a "base" of a mount that fell down due to her death but as fallen mounts are common everyone resumed where they left off as is the custom. So unfortunately 10 of her teammates have to carry the added burden/guilt of cheering around her dead body during a routine while she lay there lifeless. I was only an onlooker from another team critiquing them as part of our workshops. As a "base" she had quite a bit of body fat on her left to burn and yet it still happened. I don't know the science behind it, all I know is I witnessed it with my own eyes. It's real. It can happen. Some aspects of dieting are okay to tinker with. Some are not. You choose what's logical or worth the risks. Unfortunately I don't have any studies or empirical evidence to back up my story as I did not approach her parents for pic's or coroner's reports when they had to show up to camp to retreive her body. I never imagined ever wishing I had "proof" of that kind of experience. Until sometimes on threads like these.

    It just shows you how real it can get.. your body needs food to live, end of. Eat clean and in moderation..
  • Showcase_Brodown
    Showcase_Brodown Posts: 919 Member
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    Easy. I have yet to have my question answered. My question was (more or less) what are the effects of netting below 1000 calories? And then I asked for back up so I could see how their conclusion was reached. A lot of responces seem to assume I am not eating or eating a VLCD. I am eating a lot of food to get nutrients and vitamins. I just burn off a lot of calories. This is not a everyday thing. I only train 4/7 days a week. This is not a long term thing. Just a cut cycle. I've only done this two days so far Monday and Tuesday. Wednesday is a rest day. Then I will do it Thursday and Friday.

    See, when you put it this way, it doesn't sound as bad. I think most of us may have assumed you were netting below 1000 every day. That might bring your weekly deficit up to something that looks not quite so scary. So you're eating about the same every day and just exercising a ton 4 out of 7 days? What do you estimate your weekly deficit to be?
  • 3foldchord
    3foldchord Posts: 2,918 Member
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    .. I wouldn't be asking on the forums I would taken my trainers word. Her word isn't enough and neither is yours. I need proof, research, or articles.

    Also, in my mind these are different. One way you are eating food with nutrients and vitamins..... and one you aren't eating much so no nutrients and vitamins.

    A: research it and see what graphs and studies you can find. Yu came here and got ideas and opinions, and tips. Now take those little nuggests, do your own back up research and draw your own conclussion. If our words aren't enough, why is some randon guy who types the letters "PhD" behind his name on the internet good enough? Basically, no matter who you ask, even certified experts in th SAME field will diagree profusely! Do what evryone ele should do- research both sides and draw your own conclusion now tht you have gathered information.

    B: yes, they are different in that one brings in more nutrieints, but BOTH have too little calories to use those nutrients best and function. but again- you will even find legitimate experts disagee on this. You have to research all sides and make your desicion. forums are just a place to gather ideas for further research.
  • 3foldchord
    3foldchord Posts: 2,918 Member
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    and if it is only going below two days a week, it's not gonna be a big deal anyway, I doubt. I (and a lot of others here) use weekly results. our calories and macros at the end of the week, not on a daily basis.
  • kellijauch
    kellijauch Posts: 379 Member
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    I think you should follow the advice of your trainer, and I think you need to track daily. Weekly doesn't work for me.
  • deksgrl
    deksgrl Posts: 7,237 Member
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    Just so you know OP the reason I even bother with these types of threads is because I actually did see a girl IRL die on day two of cheer camp from severe calorie restriction in the summertime. We were told that she would have survived had she eaten just one banana.
    ...
    I don't know the science behind it, all I know is I witnessed it with my own eyes. It's real. It can happen. Some aspects of dieting are okay to tinker with. Some are not. You choose what's logical or worth the risks. Unfortunately I don't have any studies or empirical evidence to back up my story as I did not approach her parents for pic's or coroner's reports when they had to show up to camp to retreive her body. I never imagined ever wishing I had "proof" of that kind of experience. Until sometimes on threads like these.

    By the way... I hope that qualifies as a "serious" enough reply.

    Probably potassium deficiency.
  • joleenl
    joleenl Posts: 739 Member
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    Just so you know OP the reason I even bother with these types of threads is because I actually did see a girl IRL die on day two of cheer camp from severe calorie restriction in the summertime. We were told that she would have survived had she eaten just one banana. It "kills" me everytime someone says "oh it's not gonna kill me" or "i feel fine?" She looked fine and happy just 2 minutes before and wasn't even a small girl. She was a "base" of a mount that fell down due to her death but as fallen mounts are common everyone resumed where they left off as is the custom. So unfortunately 10 of her teammates have to carry the added burden/guilt of cheering around her dead body during a routine while she lay there lifeless. I was only an onlooker from another team critiquing them as part of our workshops. As a "base" she had quite a bit of body fat on her left to burn and yet it still happened. I don't know the science behind it, all I know is I witnessed it with my own eyes. It's real. It can happen. Some aspects of dieting are okay to tinker with. Some are not. You choose what's logical or worth the risks. Unfortunately I don't have any studies or empirical evidence to back up my story as I did not approach her parents for pic's or coroner's reports when they had to show up to camp to retreive her body. I never imagined ever wishing I had "proof" of that kind of experience. Until sometimes on threads like these.

    By the way... I hope that qualifies as a "serious" enough reply.

    Thanks for sharing. That is totally serious enough for me. It is a terrible and tragic thing that happened to that girl.

    I am not sure what to say. I appreciate your concern for me.

    I give my word that I will stop this diet until I can find proof that it's safe. I will make sure my net is at or over 1200 calories every day or at the very least my weekly net calories average to 1200 calories a day.

    You can add me if you are interested in seeing if I keep my word.
  • chunkydunk714
    chunkydunk714 Posts: 784 Member
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    So you only want responses that will tell you what you want to hear? Netting less than 1000 calories is not healthy no matter what your educated, certified, body building trainer says.

    Yup :)


    p.s. Your personal trainer shouldn't be giving you advice on nutrition to begin with..
  • DanaLow
    DanaLow Posts: 14 Member
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    Hi joleenl,
    I can only say from my own experience that since I have been seriously committed to loosing weight and excerpting
    I normally consume 1000 to 1200 cal a day <I can show you my food diary if you would like.>
    My dietician has been a great help. I do a brisk 6 mile walk every other day and take vitamin supplements.
    I also Drink a Whey Protein shake after work out. My diet consist of mostly, Fish, chicken and lots of vegetables.
    And I drink a lot of water through out the day. I feel great and have lost 38 pounds so far. By the way, I am 51, and
    weighed in at 358lps when I started. Works for me..
    13531129.png
    Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Nutrition Facts For Foods
  • joleenl
    joleenl Posts: 739 Member
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    .. I wouldn't be asking on the forums I would taken my trainers word. Her word isn't enough and neither is yours. I need proof, research, or articles.

    Also, in my mind these are different. One way you are eating food with nutrients and vitamins..... and one you aren't eating much so no nutrients and vitamins.

    A: research it and see what graphs and studies you can find. Yu came here and got ideas and opinions, and tips. Now take those little nuggests, do your own back up research and draw your own conclussion. If our words aren't enough, why is some randon guy who types the letters "PhD" behind his name on the internet good enough? Basically, no matter who you ask, even certified experts in th SAME field will diagree profusely! Do what evryone ele should do- research both sides and draw your own conclusion now tht you have gathered information.

    B: yes, they are different in that one brings in more nutrieints, but BOTH have too little calories to use those nutrients best and function. but again- you will even find legitimate experts disagee on this. You have to research all sides and make your desicion. forums are just a place to gather ideas for further research.

    Yes I agree. I am currently researching it. I have not found any creditable info as of yet.
  • 3foldchord
    3foldchord Posts: 2,918 Member
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    I think you should follow the advice of your trainer, and I think you need to track daily. Weekly doesn't work for me.

    I track everything Daily, but I use my weekly average.. so If I eat 1200 one day and 1700 another- at the end of the week I average out to 1450 a day )or whatever, I'm guessing the math)- then it's all good. same with macro percentages. I track daily and one day my fats are high and another low, but as long as the weekly average in about 35% I'm fine.
    but I do TRACK daily.
  • __Di__
    __Di__ Posts: 1,630 Member
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    Just so you know OP the reason I even bother with these types of threads is because I actually did see a girl IRL die on day two of cheer camp from severe calorie restriction in the summertime. We were told that she would have survived had she eaten just one banana.
    ...
    I don't know the science behind it, all I know is I witnessed it with my own eyes. It's real. It can happen. Some aspects of dieting are okay to tinker with. Some are not. You choose what's logical or worth the risks. Unfortunately I don't have any studies or empirical evidence to back up my story as I did not approach her parents for pic's or coroner's reports when they had to show up to camp to retreive her body. I never imagined ever wishing I had "proof" of that kind of experience. Until sometimes on threads like these.

    By the way... I hope that qualifies as a "serious" enough reply.

    Probably potassium deficiency.

    I agree, Potassium has a lot to do with the rhythm of the heart, severe lack of it can cause a cardiac arrest.

    Potatoes and bananas are excellent sources of Potassium. With regard to the bananas, it is worth noting that the greener (so less ripe) they are, the less Potassium they contain. As they ripen off and get darker and darker, they gain more Potassium - true, not broscience.
  • kellijauch
    kellijauch Posts: 379 Member
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    Think of it like this - food is fuel for your body. Your car won't run if it's out of gas. your body won't function properly if it's out of fuel either. I usually do 1000-1250 each day. Anything less than 1000 calories is not giving our body enough energy, especially if you work out.
  • joleenl
    joleenl Posts: 739 Member
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    Easy. I have yet to have my question answered. My question was (more or less) what are the effects of netting below 1000 calories? And then I asked for back up so I could see how their conclusion was reached. A lot of responces seem to assume I am not eating or eating a VLCD. I am eating a lot of food to get nutrients and vitamins. I just burn off a lot of calories. This is not a everyday thing. I only train 4/7 days a week. This is not a long term thing. Just a cut cycle. I've only done this two days so far Monday and Tuesday. Wednesday is a rest day. Then I will do it Thursday and Friday.

    See, when you put it this way, it doesn't sound as bad. I think most of us may have assumed you were netting below 1000 every day. That might bring your weekly deficit up to something that looks not quite so scary. So you're eating about the same every day and just exercising a ton 4 out of 7 days? What do you estimate your weekly deficit to be?

    My appoligies. I am terrible at explaining things.
  • MaggieKillNMaul
    MaggieKillNMaul Posts: 24 Member
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    Ok, my goals aren't the same as yours, so it's probably best to listen to your trainer, because they probably know their stuff.

    I was told by my nutritionist that you actually shouldn't be eating your exercise calories because MFP over estimates your calorie burn in order to burn fat. I personally don't see any harm in NETTING below 1000 calories, (she's talking about NET calories folks--not actual calories ingested! sorry...I just think a few people may have missed that part) as long as you're eating enough to fuel your body. I net below 1000 constantly, and haven't had any issues. I think if you working out for hours on end, that might be a different story. I would just talk to your trainer or a sports nutritionist to find out for sure.