Anyone clued up on employment law?

lauren3101
lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
in Chit-Chat
Ok, so I was recently offered a job elsewhere, for a company I've always wanted to work for. They literally made me an offer I couldn't refuse. The only downside - no start date.

To cut a long story short, I was asked to go for an interview by this company because I was recommended by a guy I used to work for. There is no official vacancy which is why there's no start date, but they are going to find me one. However this could be 1 month away, 2 months away, 6 months away, who knows.

My current role is stand-alone, not particularly easy and it is business critical that someone is there to cover it (that's not meant to sound big-headed in any way). Because of this and because I get on very well with my line manager, I decided to be completely honest about it so they had as much notice as possible to prepare for my eventual departure.

Since then, someone elsewhere has got wind of this and has reported it higher, and I had a meeting with the HR director yesterday, who told me that they want a definite start date (which I can't give) as they want to start seeking my replacement immediantly. I explained that it could be months before I start, and they said that's not good enough, and have asked me to write up my job description and start advertising and interviewing for my replacement.

My worry here is that they are going to find my replacement, it will end up with two people trained to do one job, and I will get pushed out before I am ready to leave. Today they have told me that I can no longer attend the in-house TUPE training course tomorrow that I have been booked in for for months, because I am eventually leaving.

Do you think I am worrying too much? Can they legally do what I am worried about? Are there any steps I should take now to prevent this getting worse?
«13

Replies

  • RllyGudTweetr
    RllyGudTweetr Posts: 2,019 Member
    Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, and believe your best course of action is a consultation with an actual legal adviser. What follows is JUST my layperson's understanding.

    The rules for employers in matters like this will vary some depending on your location, and whether you're part of a union (or in a job with a strong union presence). In "Right to Work" states in the USA, I've been given to understand that - barring union agreements to the contrary - an employer need not show cause to terminate employment, and (from anecdotal evidence among folks I know) an employer in such a state is allowed to terminate employment simply because you had a job interview elsewhere.

    Whether the above is true in your location - or has changed since it happened to my acquaintance - I cannot say with any accuracy.
  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, and believe your best course of action is a consultation with an actual legal adviser. What follows is JUST my layperson's understanding.

    The rules for employers in matters like this will vary some depending on your location, and whether you're part of a union (or in a job with a strong union presence). In "Right to Work" states in the USA, I've been given to understand that - barring union agreements to the contrary - an employer need not show cause to terminate employment, and (from anecdotal evidence among folks I know) an employer in such a state is allowed to terminate employment simply because you had a job interview elsewhere.

    Whether the above is true in your location - or has changed since it happened to my acquaintance - I cannot say with any accuracy.

    Wow. I don't know whether that's the case here (I'm in the UK). We do have to have a reason for terminating employment here unless you are on a probationary period which doesn't apply to me, but I don't know about the looking for another job part.

    What worries me is that this is coming straight from my HR director. :frown:
  • randomtai
    randomtai Posts: 9,003 Member
    You probably shot yourself in the foot when you opened your mouth about the new job.
  • Hellbent_Heidi
    Hellbent_Heidi Posts: 3,669 Member
    You probably shot yourself in the foot when you opened your mouth about the new job.
    Yeah, I kind of agree here...its never a good idea to tell them until you have something set in stone, THEN, you give a decent amount of notice (unless you're willing to burn the bridge). The employer you're going to work for should understand and respect this course of action.

    If you're in an 'at-will employment' situation, they can replace you whenever they want, but I'm not in the UK, so not sure how that applies there. I'd suggest you consult a lawyer
  • Beastmaster50
    Beastmaster50 Posts: 505 Member
    You are hired "at will" so they legally can do this. Hope things work out for you.
  • pixtotts
    pixtotts Posts: 552 Member
    Tricky one... you said yourself they need someone in your job role, so they are only wanting to cover their own backs too. For all they know (and you by the sounds of it) you could find out with just a couple of days notice and then they'd be stuck...
    You really need to find a date from your next employer, or... come to an agreed leave date with your current employer and hope the newone has something sorted by then (or tell them what date your available from...)

    Or live near me and tell them I'll have your job when you leave and I don't mind when the start date is ;) lol!
    x
  • dvlawyer
    dvlawyer Posts: 2
    I am a lawyer, and the last reply is correct. There is not enough info in your query to answer your question. Where do you live? do you have an employment contract? Are you in a union? Do you have an employee manual that says anything about termination policies? And you need to talk to a lawyer where you live.
  • GlitterrMagpie
    GlitterrMagpie Posts: 302 Member
    I would start documenting everything. They shouldn't be refusing you training, you haven't handed in your notice yet. If they try to "push you out" you could go for constructive dismissal so start keeping a diary of everything that happens that you're not comfortable with,
  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    Ok, slightly more background info.

    I'm in the UK, I have a contract, no union. My contract says nothing about my current situation, only that both parties have to give 4 weeks notice if one wishes to terminate the contract.

    That's the thing, I HAVE to give 4 weeks notice, I certainly couldn't walk out of there after 2 days. However because of the job it is, they don't think that 4 weeks is long enough, but if that was so, should they not have requested a longer notice period when I started?

    I understand I have probably shot myself in the foot, and I have learnt my lesson! I honestly thought I was doing the right thing.
  • Buddhasmiracle
    Buddhasmiracle Posts: 925 Member
    You probably shot yourself in the foot when you opened your mouth about the new job.

    Unfortunately, this may well be the case, particularly without a start date from the other employer (which in itself is odd). Being on the "other side" of this equation, if one of my staff gave me notice, verbally or in writing, that they had employment elsewhere, I planned to find a replacement as quickly as possible. I worked under tight budgetary constraints and any unfilled position was fodder for the budget dept to abolish it. Many employees, no matter how well their intentions are, who have concrete job offers elsewhere, had one foot in my shop and looking forward to starting that new job. I'd get a firm commitment on a start date asap.
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
    I'm from the UK.... my mum was a union rep for unison (she's now retired) - so I'm not really that clued up but my mum's always been advising me about my employment rights etc, at least when I lived in the UK (currently working in Bahrain where the law's different)

    my advice would be to see if there's a union rep at your place of work, even if you're not a member of a union they would usually still give you the time of day to tell you what your rights are and give you advice. They probably won't represent you etc if you're not a member but usually they can still advise you. AFAIK you have a notice period in your contract, and you haven't actually handed in your notice. I'm not sure that they can just terminate you for wanting to leave and not being able to give them a start date for your new job (you'd need to check this with a union rep or someone else who knows your employment rights), but in terms of starting your new job you can't just drop everything and leave you have to give notice and work your notice. The notice period gives them enough time to find a replacement (and they should decide what the notice period is before drawing up the contract, based on how long it would take them to find someone else, so if your standard notice period doesn't give them enough time to find a replacement then that's their problem AFAIK) but your side of it is you can't leave without working your notice, although I'm not sure what the consequences of that would be. and saying you're going to leave but not saying when is leaving your current employer in a difficult position, and you probably don't have the right to do that in your contract.

    but check with someone who knows employment law and/or a union rep
  • Hellbent_Heidi
    Hellbent_Heidi Posts: 3,669 Member
    That's the thing, I HAVE to give 4 weeks notice, I certainly couldn't walk out of there after 2 days. However because of the job it is, they don't think that 4 weeks is long enough, but if that was so, should they not have requested a longer notice period when I started?
    If this is the amount of notice they require, then you shouldn't worry too much if its "not enough". Its commendable that you're concerned, but in the end, 4 weeks is very fair, and if they aren't prepared, its not really your problem.

    Either way..good luck. I hope it works out for you, because you sound like a nice and responsible person!
  • randomtai
    randomtai Posts: 9,003 Member
    Also, even though you say you have this new job, until you actually sign the tax paper work and are hired, you don't have the new job either.
  • GlitterrMagpie
    GlitterrMagpie Posts: 302 Member
    You might want to speak to Citizens Advice. They're a great source of free advice and should have a specialist in employment law you could speak to.
  • melb_alex
    melb_alex Posts: 1,154 Member
    You probably shot yourself in the foot when you opened your mouth about the new job.
    Yeah, I kind of agree here...its never a good idea to tell them until you have something set in stone, THEN, you give a decent amount of notice (unless you're willing to burn the bridge). The employer you're going to work for should understand and respect this course of action.

    If you're in an 'at-will employment' situation, they can replace you whenever they want, but I'm not in the UK, so not sure how that applies there. I'd suggest you consult a lawyer

    Likewise here...unless you have the paperwork you're not legally bound which in turn signifies the position is not "actual"

    Time to consult the equivalent of "Fair Work Australia".
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member

    That's the thing, I HAVE to give 4 weeks notice, I certainly couldn't walk out of there after 2 days. However because of the job it is, they don't think that 4 weeks is long enough, but if that was so, should they not have requested a longer notice period when I started?

    if that's the case then it's their problem. your contract says 4 weeks notice, you hand in your notice then leave after 4 weeks, that's it. They should have drawn up the contract with enough notice period to find a replacement, that's what the notice period is for. They need to take this up with their legal department or whoever draws up the contracts for them as that's their mistake, not yours.
  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    Also, even though you say you have this new job, until you actually sign the tax paper work and are hired, you don't have the new job either.

    it's called a contract here in the UK, which I have signed already, but the start date says 'TBC'.

    Thanks for your advice everyone, I think the Citizens Advice is a good idea, I always forget about them.
  • Madame_Goldbricker
    Madame_Goldbricker Posts: 1,625 Member
    Even if your company doesn't have a union. You can join an independent one. Might be an idea so at least they can't try & shuffle you out the door.
  • tracey1986
    tracey1986 Posts: 8
    If your contract states you only have to give 4 weeks notice, then you only have to give 4 weeks notice. They can't change the terms of your contract now without your consent and demand your notice period be longer.
  • GlitterrMagpie
    GlitterrMagpie Posts: 302 Member
    Forgot to add, Congrats on the new job. Don't let this situation take the shine off it for you. Headhunted to a company you always wanted to work for is really great! :smile:
  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    Forgot to add, Congrats on the new job. Don't let this situation take the shine off it for you. Headhunted to a company you always wanted to work for is really great! :smile:

    Thank you. :smile:
  • cdobrosemd
    cdobrosemd Posts: 6 Member
    From the employers point of view you have given them your notice. The clock is ticking and from their point of view when they hire someone to replace you they will have you training them and when the 4 weeks are over and your replacement is adequately trained you are out. Whether or not you have started your new job at that time is irrelevant. If I were them I would not be having you do any training that was not required by regulatory law. Training is unproductive time at work; its only purpose is to improve your productivity or to comply with regulations or improve safety. Since you are leaving soon the employer will never recoup the investment they would be making in your training.
  • jess7386
    jess7386 Posts: 477 Member
    You're probably going to need an actual lawyer. A lawyer cannot give you advice (like on here) unless you enter into a formal relationship with them. Doing so (at least in the US) would be cause for suspending one's license.
  • stackhead
    stackhead Posts: 121 Member
    They can't sack you for informing them but they have every right not to pay for you to go on a training course if you've told them you're leaving, it's a waste of money as far as their concerned.

    You should have got a start date before you told them in lieu, make it clear that you will work the 4 weeks notice ONCE you hand your notice in (which i'm assuming you haven't done yet).

    Try and get a least a timeframe from your new employers (who are the numptys in this story quite frankly!).

    So in conclusion: They can't sack you, but you can expect lots of unpleasantness that might make you want to leave...

    EDIT: to take in the comment above:

    You need to check whether your contract states that you need to provide notice in writing or not. If you're contract doesn't say that then the act of informing your manager could be construed as giving notice and therefore the clock could be ticking.

    EDIT: Not a solicitor, but am a law graduate.
  • cdobrosemd
    cdobrosemd Posts: 6 Member
    However, if your current employer is asking you to write up your own job description they may have a little bit of a vacuum in the management of that place!!!
  • dsjohndrow
    dsjohndrow Posts: 1,820 Member
    Most US states say that you are a worker at will, or a worker for hire. Unless you have a signed contract or employment agreement, they can lay you off without cause. Most of those agreements have a clause where they can dump you for a fee. If there is a cause, you would not be able to collect unemployment. IE: Stealing, insubordination, that sort of thing. That is usually call a "fire." If you voluntarily quit, you would not be able to collect UE benefits either. In the end, you can collect if they let you go and you don'e have a new job. But it is about 50% of what you make, and you usually have a one week penalty.

    Next time, shut your mouth until you have a new job - just a suggestion. ;)
  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    From the employers point of view you have given them your notice. The clock is ticking and from their point of view when they hire someone to replace you they will have you training them and when the 4 weeks are over and your replacement is adequately trained you are out. Whether or not you have started your new job at that time is irrelevant. If I were them I would not be having you do any training that was not required by regulatory law. Training is unproductive time at work; its only purpose is to improve your productivity or to comply with regulations or improve safety. Since you are leaving soon the employer will never recoup the investment they would be making in your training.

    Legally, I haven't given them my notice. My notice has to be in writing, clearly stating a last working day and signed by me, and I have done no such thing.

    I understand the training aspect of it to a point, however as I stated this is in-house training, being carried out by a member of HR, so doesn't cost them any money. Essentially all they would lose is three hours of my time.
  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    However, if your current employer is asking you to write up your own job description they may have a little bit of a vacuum in the management of that place!!!

    Yes, that has been a problem here for some time! :laugh:

    Trouble here is no-one really has any idea what I do, as I pretty much manage myself, which I think is the reason for the panic.
  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    Most US states say that you are a worker at will, or a worker for hire. Unless you have a signed contract or employment agreement, they can lay you off without cause. Most of those agreements have a clause where they can dump you for a fee. If there is a cause, you would not be able to collect unemployment. IE: Stealing, insubordination, that sort of thing. That is usually call a "fire." If you voluntarily quit, you would not be able to collect UE benefits either. In the end, you can collect if they let you go and you don'e have a new job. But it is about 50% of what you make, and you usually have a one week penalty.

    Next time, shut your mouth until you have a new job - just a suggestion. ;)

    Again, I'm from the UK. We don't have contracts like the above so it is completely irrelevant.
  • TheRoadDog
    TheRoadDog Posts: 11,788 Member
    You should have asked for advice before you announced you were leaving. I would have told you to say nothing until you had your start date, and, even then, give them only 2 weeks notice until your last day. I don't care what your relationship is with your current employer -- how much notice would they give you if there was a layoff?

    There is really no advice to give at this point. You already dealt the cards. What may be even worse is that, you don't get the job for some reason, but your current employer knows you have been looking. What happens if you stay and an opportunity comes up at you current employer and you and Susie both apply. Know one knows if Susie is unhappy at work, but your employer knows you have already been aout there looking.

    Unless you are in a Union, most companys are "at will" employers and can let you go at any time.

Categories