Anyone clued up on employment law?

Options
24

Replies

  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    Options
    Forgot to add, Congrats on the new job. Don't let this situation take the shine off it for you. Headhunted to a company you always wanted to work for is really great! :smile:

    Thank you. :smile:
  • cdobrosemd
    cdobrosemd Posts: 6 Member
    Options
    From the employers point of view you have given them your notice. The clock is ticking and from their point of view when they hire someone to replace you they will have you training them and when the 4 weeks are over and your replacement is adequately trained you are out. Whether or not you have started your new job at that time is irrelevant. If I were them I would not be having you do any training that was not required by regulatory law. Training is unproductive time at work; its only purpose is to improve your productivity or to comply with regulations or improve safety. Since you are leaving soon the employer will never recoup the investment they would be making in your training.
  • jess7386
    jess7386 Posts: 477 Member
    Options
    You're probably going to need an actual lawyer. A lawyer cannot give you advice (like on here) unless you enter into a formal relationship with them. Doing so (at least in the US) would be cause for suspending one's license.
  • stackhead
    stackhead Posts: 121 Member
    Options
    They can't sack you for informing them but they have every right not to pay for you to go on a training course if you've told them you're leaving, it's a waste of money as far as their concerned.

    You should have got a start date before you told them in lieu, make it clear that you will work the 4 weeks notice ONCE you hand your notice in (which i'm assuming you haven't done yet).

    Try and get a least a timeframe from your new employers (who are the numptys in this story quite frankly!).

    So in conclusion: They can't sack you, but you can expect lots of unpleasantness that might make you want to leave...

    EDIT: to take in the comment above:

    You need to check whether your contract states that you need to provide notice in writing or not. If you're contract doesn't say that then the act of informing your manager could be construed as giving notice and therefore the clock could be ticking.

    EDIT: Not a solicitor, but am a law graduate.
  • cdobrosemd
    cdobrosemd Posts: 6 Member
    Options
    However, if your current employer is asking you to write up your own job description they may have a little bit of a vacuum in the management of that place!!!
  • dsjohndrow
    dsjohndrow Posts: 1,820 Member
    Options
    Most US states say that you are a worker at will, or a worker for hire. Unless you have a signed contract or employment agreement, they can lay you off without cause. Most of those agreements have a clause where they can dump you for a fee. If there is a cause, you would not be able to collect unemployment. IE: Stealing, insubordination, that sort of thing. That is usually call a "fire." If you voluntarily quit, you would not be able to collect UE benefits either. In the end, you can collect if they let you go and you don'e have a new job. But it is about 50% of what you make, and you usually have a one week penalty.

    Next time, shut your mouth until you have a new job - just a suggestion. ;)
  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    Options
    From the employers point of view you have given them your notice. The clock is ticking and from their point of view when they hire someone to replace you they will have you training them and when the 4 weeks are over and your replacement is adequately trained you are out. Whether or not you have started your new job at that time is irrelevant. If I were them I would not be having you do any training that was not required by regulatory law. Training is unproductive time at work; its only purpose is to improve your productivity or to comply with regulations or improve safety. Since you are leaving soon the employer will never recoup the investment they would be making in your training.

    Legally, I haven't given them my notice. My notice has to be in writing, clearly stating a last working day and signed by me, and I have done no such thing.

    I understand the training aspect of it to a point, however as I stated this is in-house training, being carried out by a member of HR, so doesn't cost them any money. Essentially all they would lose is three hours of my time.
  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    Options
    However, if your current employer is asking you to write up your own job description they may have a little bit of a vacuum in the management of that place!!!

    Yes, that has been a problem here for some time! :laugh:

    Trouble here is no-one really has any idea what I do, as I pretty much manage myself, which I think is the reason for the panic.
  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    Options
    Most US states say that you are a worker at will, or a worker for hire. Unless you have a signed contract or employment agreement, they can lay you off without cause. Most of those agreements have a clause where they can dump you for a fee. If there is a cause, you would not be able to collect unemployment. IE: Stealing, insubordination, that sort of thing. That is usually call a "fire." If you voluntarily quit, you would not be able to collect UE benefits either. In the end, you can collect if they let you go and you don'e have a new job. But it is about 50% of what you make, and you usually have a one week penalty.

    Next time, shut your mouth until you have a new job - just a suggestion. ;)

    Again, I'm from the UK. We don't have contracts like the above so it is completely irrelevant.
  • TheRoadDog
    TheRoadDog Posts: 11,788 Member
    Options
    You should have asked for advice before you announced you were leaving. I would have told you to say nothing until you had your start date, and, even then, give them only 2 weeks notice until your last day. I don't care what your relationship is with your current employer -- how much notice would they give you if there was a layoff?

    There is really no advice to give at this point. You already dealt the cards. What may be even worse is that, you don't get the job for some reason, but your current employer knows you have been looking. What happens if you stay and an opportunity comes up at you current employer and you and Susie both apply. Know one knows if Susie is unhappy at work, but your employer knows you have already been aout there looking.

    Unless you are in a Union, most companys are "at will" employers and can let you go at any time.
  • FerryfieldLad
    FerryfieldLad Posts: 185 Member
    Options
    Congratulations on your new job - sounds like its a dream come true.

    With the benefit of hindsight you should have waited till you had a start date from the new job before you told anyone about it. Your new place of employment would understand that you have to give notice to your current employer before you can start with them.

    If you haven't given your notice then you haven't "officially" said you are leaving. Just like I can say I might be leaving Sky TV for cable - unless it is in writing then there is no notice. As a result of this they can't push you out the door. If they do I would take them to tribunal.

    They can however bring someone in to shadow you in the job till you are ready to move on (its good for them and the new employee that there is a handover period).
  • chunkiedunker
    chunkiedunker Posts: 144 Member
    Options
    i have a similar story. I come to work every day and find that i have an issue at work. an issue that just keeps bugging me until eventually i am unhappy at my job. So i mention to a coworker that i cant deal with it anymore, nothing is going to change to fix it so i am going to look for other employment. (mistake #1) i then told a few other coworkers how unhappy i was because of this issue. (mistake #2) well i hadn't applied to any jobs but i did start to look around and i get cornered one day by the owner of the company's personal assistant asking me if this rumor was true as she heard a rumor that i was looking for other work. I didn't lie (mistake #3) and told her yes. she reported it to H.R. because she and alot of people here didn't want to see me leave.

    Infact the individual who told the assistant told her because he didn't want to see me leave. H.R. talks to me and said that the owner and him have talked and they dont want to see me go and they are trying to deal with the issue. I then talked to the owner and he is trying to fix the issue and has offered me another position inside the company to keep me around.

    My company could have easily fired me for mentioning i was looking for future employment. instead they choose to see how to keep me. That does one of two things, shows the integrity of the company and also shows me how much they think and believe in me.

    I hope your story works out as well as mine has so far. i will tell you this though. its always a mistake to tell your employer that you are looking unless your employer is very cool like that. it sounds like yours isn't.
  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    Options
    You should have asked for advice before you announced you were leaving. I would have told you to say nothing until you had your start date, and, even then, give them only 2 weeks notice until your last day. I don't care what your relationship is with your current employer -- how much notice would they give you if there was a layoff?

    There is really no advice to give at this point. You already dealt the cards. What may be even worse is that, you don't get the job for some reason, but your current employer knows you have been looking. What happens if you stay and an opportunity comes up at you current employer and you and Susie both apply. Know one knows if Susie is unhappy at work, but your employer knows you have already been aout there looking.

    Unless you are in a Union, most companys are "at will" employers and can let you go at any time.

    Have you actually read any of this thread?

    1. Both myself and my employer have to give 4 weeks notice if my contract comes to an end for whatever reason.

    2. I have the job, I have a signed contract for the job with pay etc on it, but a start date of 'TBC'.

    3. I'm from the UK. 'At will' does not exist here.
  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    Options
    i have a similar story. I come to work every day and find that i have an issue at work. an issue that just keeps bugging me until eventually i am unhappy at my job. So i mention to a coworker that i cant deal with it anymore, nothing is going to change to fix it so i am going to look for other employment. (mistake #1) i then told a few other coworkers how unhappy i was because of this issue. (mistake #2) well i hadn't applied to any jobs but i did start to look around and i get cornered one day by the owner of the company's personal assistant asking me if this rumor was true as she heard a rumor that i was looking for other work. I didn't lie (mistake #3) and told her yes. she reported it to H.R. because she and alot of people here didn't want to see me leave.

    Infact the individual who told the assistant told her because he didn't want to see me leave. H.R. talks to me and said that the owner and him have talked and they dont want to see me go and they are trying to deal with the issue. I then talked to the owner and he is trying to fix the issue and has offered me another position inside the company to keep me around.

    My company could have easily fired me for mentioning i was looking for future employment. instead they choose to see how to keep me. That does one of two things, shows the integrity of the company and also shows me how much they think and believe in me.

    I hope your story works out as well as mine has so far. i will tell you this though. its always a mistake to tell your employer that you are looking unless your employer is very cool like that. it sounds like yours isn't.

    Glad to hear it all worked out for you! No, it doesn't sound like mine will do that. :laugh:
  • Madame_Goldbricker
    Madame_Goldbricker Posts: 1,625 Member
    Options
    I'd probably be tempted to say I'd had a change of heart & I wasn't going. The thing is if there isn't even an actual job yet at the other company, & this could be the case for 1-6mths do you really want your employer snapping at your heels that long. Try and get a firmer answer of the new company. If you can't then I'd probably back peddle, & work out my notice when I actually had a leaving date.

    Obviously, it's not great & they will be less than impressed, but chances are they already feel like your messing them about. I know you told them with the intention of being upfront, but they aren't seeing it that way. However, if you need a reference from them it changes things.
  • rml_16
    rml_16 Posts: 16,414 Member
    Options
    I don't know about in England, but most states in the US are at-will employment states and they can fire you for any reason or no reason at all (except a very few, specific things like age, gender, religion or race).

    Lesson learned is DO NOT give any kind of notice until you know when you're leaving and a standard two weeks' notice is all you need to give them.

    Sorry -- didn't see that your contract requires four weeks' notice. Anyway. that would be what I would have given them once I had a start date for the new job. You went above and beyond, but it might bite you in the end. Good luck!
  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    Options
    I'd probably be tempted to say I'd had a change of heart & I wasn't going. The thing is if there isn't even an actual job yet at the other company, & this could be the case for 1-6mths do you really want your employer snapping at your heels that long. Try and get a firmer answer of the new company. If you can't then I'd probably back peddle, & work out my notice when I actually had a leaving date.

    Obviously, it's not great & they will be less than impressed, but chances are they already feel like your messing them about. I know you told them with the intention of being upfront, but they aren't seeing it that way. However, if you need a reference from them it changes things.

    Ah, reference wouldn't be a problem, my line manager would provide that.

    My partner said that to me this morning; that I should just tell them it's fallen through, keep my head down and when they give me a start date, work my 4 weeks notice and leave. I'd feel bad doing that because that's an outright lie, but being honest hasn't done me any favours so far.
  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    Options
    I don't know about in England, but most states in the US are at-will employment states and they can fire you for any reason or no reason at all (except a very few, specific things like age, gender, religion or race).

    Lesson learned is DO NOT give any kind of notice until you know when you're leaving and a standard two weeks' notice is all you need to give them.

    Sorry -- didn't see that your contract requires four weeks' notice. Anyway. that would be what I would have given them once I had a start date for the new job. You went above and beyond, but it might bite you in the end. Good luck!

    Yeah our employment law is a little different here, they certainly have to have a reason and it needs to be done formally, but I don't know whether what I've done interferes with that!

    Lesson has most certainly be learnt, I will not be saying a word in future!

    Thanks rml.
  • cdobrosemd
    cdobrosemd Posts: 6 Member
    Options
    Not to be argumentative or anything but you have already told us your current employer is already chomping at the bit to find someone to replace you because they dont want to be caught without someone who can fulfill that position. So they are probably going to hire someone whether you give them a date, a formal notice, whatever, or not. Once that happens they will have you train them and once that person is able to do your job you are kind of in limbo (as you said they are not going to pay 2 people to do 1 job). They might move you around to fill in for people who are out sick or on vacation.

    I dont know what TUPE means. I am not sure why you are so torn up about not doing the training or what value it is to you since you are leaving the position some time soon. I cant imagine that providing any further training is in the interest of your employer. You just got done telling us that your position is vital to production but then you dont realize that your spending a half day at training is no big deal to your employer. There is a reason they cancelled your training and that is they would be paying you for a half day and you wouldnt be doing anything productive and the productivity of the company would be diminished in your absence so its more that just your pay.

    I thing you have already answered all your own questions in your intial post; I am just confirming to you that your fears are realistic taking your employers point of view. I dont know what employment law is like in the UK. In the US there are all sorts of laws to protect people from discrimination in the workplace but when you look into how you would actually use them to protect yourself it seems like its not worth the hassle (I left my last job in relation to my being a whistleblower in a religious discrimination issue).
  • Dublinmum
    Dublinmum Posts: 19 Member
    Options
    Hey Lauren, I'm surprised at the HR Director reacting like that. You haven't actually given your notice yet. You spoke informally with your line manager informing him of your intention to leave that's all. You have a contract stating 4 weeks notice. Your employer cannot insist on a longer term than that. Any change to that term, longer or shorter, will have to be mutually agreed.

    Now, what if the worst happens and your new employer pushes out the start date indefinitely, or retracts the offer? Have you signed a contract with them by the way? Is there a latest start date? What if that offer doesn't materialise and you have been pushed out of your current role because they have hired your replacement? You need to ensure you are protected.

    I can sympathise with your current employer. You are in a critical role and they know it will be difficult to replace you. However, they have no right to stop you going to training and hiring someone to take your role. It is still YOUR role and you have very strong legal rights in the UK. What your employer is doing is tantamount to constructive dismissal. Until you give formal notice you are employed. So your employer either has to sit it out and wait for you to hand in your notice, or they negotiate a full and final settlement with you and you leave, or they terminate your employment without just cause and you take them to an employment appeals tribunal for unfair dismissal. And you will win because they have already shot themselves in the foot with their behaviour so far.

    Best approach is to put pressure on your new company to give you a start date and work from there. Good luck.

Categories