Why does everyone here recommend strength based programs?
BarackMeLikeAHurricane
Posts: 3,400 Member
Even 4chan has moved away from telling everyone to do SS and call it a day. Most people here want aesthetics more than strength. I've seen much better results on a "bro split" than I ever did on a strength based program. I don't lift heavy. The heaviest I ever go is lmao2plate!!!1! and half the time I don't go heavier than 185 on any lift. I do my compounds and then a million different isolation exercises. Training for strength is great... if your goal is strength. I've been training my little brother the way I train (he's a 16 year old boy) and he's been packing on mass very quickly. I just feel like a lot of people are getting trolled out of decent gains by being told to do strength based programs.
/rant
/rant
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Replies
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Two things to answer your question. Firs thing - weight is not relative to going heavy. It depends on the person. I use X weight for m deadlifts. My training partner will use X+150lbs. We are both going to our 3rm. Does that mean I am not going heavy? Going heavy means pushing it really, or doing into a lower rep range that is near maximal effort.
Second - SS is a basic program that people can follow. It is quick and easy to get in which is something beginners need til they can get hooked and want to move on.0 -
Second - SS is a basic program that people can follow. It is quick and easy to get in which is something beginners need til they can get hooked and want to move on.
This is a great reason. The book technically teaches you important lifts and time under the bar learning them is never time wasted. If you go on to do an upper/lower split or something in higher rep ranges, you'll have laid down a bedrock of skill that will serve you well. These lifts will re-occur in innumerable programmes.
If the option is telling people to do SS and teaching them the lifts the right way or let them float off and do a Muscle Mag Bro Split first, then I would rather they did SS and then went and did a split afterwards. Or, god forbid, make their own split up with no prior lifting experience.0 -
Mostly because people are looking to improve their strength and not really trying to pack on mass. The goal for most is to lose weight and slightly improve muscle definition.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Second - SS is a basic program that people can follow. It is quick and easy to get in which is something beginners need til they can get hooked and want to move on.
This is a great reason. The book technically teaches you important lifts and time under the bar learning them is never time wasted. If you go on to do an upper/lower split or something in higher rep ranges, you'll have laid down a bedrock of skill that will serve you well. These lifts will re-occur in innumerable programmes.
If the option is telling people to do SS and teaching them the lifts the right way or let them float off and do a Muscle Mag Bro Split first, then I would rather they did SS and then went and did a split afterwards. Or, god forbid, make their own split up with no prior lifting experience.0 -
I think they are saying that adding weights to your workout is better than just Cardio.0
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Second - SS is a basic program that people can follow. It is quick and easy to get in which is something beginners need til they can get hooked and want to move on.
Exactly. Both SS and SL are good beginer's programs. Mind you I've been lifting for quite some time and I still follow SL, but that's because I absolutely love it and it works great for me. to each their own I say!
I want strength, and I love lifting heavy, so it works great for me. I really hate splits anyways /shrugs
A lot of people that come here don't know anything about lifting, most of them are still in the ''I need to do cardio to lose weight, I don't wanna bulk'' and so on. SS/SL are great for them, because it teaches them the basics and it's a good ground to then move on to splits or build their own once they got the basics right.0 -
thinking of starting strength training, tired of treadmill.
so what is ss? and where is this book? I want to start off correctly and not get hurt.Second - SS is a basic program that people can follow. It is quick and easy to get in which is something beginners need til they can get hooked and want to move on.
This is a great reason. The book technically teaches you important lifts and time under the bar learning them is never time wasted. If you go on to do an upper/lower split or something in higher rep ranges, you'll have laid down a bedrock of skill that will serve you well. These lifts will re-occur in innumerable programmes.
If the option is telling people to do SS and teaching them the lifts the right way or let them float off and do a Muscle Mag Bro Split first, then I would rather they did SS and then went and did a split afterwards. Or, god forbid, make their own split up with no prior lifting experience.
[/quote]0 -
Google Starting Strength.0
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thinking of starting strength training, tired of treadmill.
so what is ss? and where is this book? I want to start off correctly and not get hurt.
Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe. You can find it online at most booksellers. There is a kindle version from Amazon if you swing that way.
It's a book that will show you the nuts and bolts of the main compound lifts and there is a simple programme to follow to make sure you a) progress properly and b) don't overtrain.0 -
I think they are saying that adding weights to your workout is better than just Cardio.
^^^ This - Exactly!0 -
Starting Strength, Stronglifts, etc. are beginner programs that are very effective at building a good base of strength. It is interesting on this forum how everyone has jumped on this bandwagon. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with these programs, and if combined with a healthy diet you will gain muscle/good aesthetics. My problem is how many people doing the compound lifts have a clue on the form? I see form videos posted all the time on here and I just cringe at most of them. So basically, they're good programs but you really need to do your homework on the lifts and how to perform them properly.
I am like the OP - I did mostly isolation work when I started lifting. Did I get good aesthetics? Absolutely. Did I get strong? Meh, definitely not as strong as I looked. So I started mostly compounds a couple of years ago and have gotten much stronger and actually more toned (for lack of a better word). If I had to do it all again, I would have started on a program like SS. Most beginners will fair far better on SS then a "bro split". I know I would have.0 -
Even 4chan has moved away from telling everyone to do SS and call it a day. Most people here want aesthetics more than strength. I've seen much better results on a "bro split" than I ever did on a strength based program. I don't lift heavy. The heaviest I ever go is lmao2plate!!!1! and half the time I don't go heavier than 185 on any lift. I do my compounds and then a million different isolation exercises. Training for strength is great... if your goal is strength. I've been training my little brother the way I train (he's a 16 year old boy) and he's been packing on mass very quickly. I just feel like a lot of people are getting trolled out of decent gains by being told to do strength based programs.
/rant
What kind of program has you lifting 185lbs? That's a good amount of weight. That sounds like a strength program to me. What is the alternative if you are lifting weights? A no strength but gain size program?0 -
Yeah I think Starting Strength is the easiest to start with because of simplicity and due to how well the book breaks down some important lifts.
Also this is primarily a weight loss site (and I know that isn't true for everyone here, i.e. the OP is in amazing shape - congrats!) but I don't know how effective/necessary hypertrophy training is for overweight individuals. Before anyone jumps down my throat - I KNOW a progressive weight lifting routine is important - just don't feel like hypertrophy training is.
This slightly touches on that:
http://impruvism.com/strength-training-fat-loss-podcast/
I am not 100% confident I am right on this - but if I am in a large caloric deficit (I am) I dunno if focusing on a routine that is designed to build muscle mass is smartest idea. (that said I follow All Pros Beginner routine - so maybe I am a hypocrite).
I assume the OP is in a surplus and building muscle, and also clearly not a beginner - so for her a bodybuilding split makes sense.0 -
Thank you Shawshank and Jirmmmm...0
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Bump.
Never heard of SS. I'll be looking that up later. I'm looking for something to help me gain strength, tone and keep the weight down. I love to lift and I lift heavy (heavy to me) 3-4 times a week but I also run and do combat, zumba, turbo kick, play sports and swim.. i don't want big muscles, I really want the athletic build and cut tummy. And I'd love to skip out on turbo kick more often. but I always feel like i'm losing what I did.
Will SS help that?0 -
Bump.
Never heard of SS. I'll be looking that up later. I'm looking for something to help me gain strength, tone and keep the weight down. I love to lift and I lift heavy (heavy to me) 3-4 times a week but I also run and do combat, zumba, turbo kick, play sports and swim.. i don't want big muscles, I really want the athletic build and cut tummy. And I'd love to skip out on turbo kick more often. but I always feel like i'm losing what I did.
Will SS help that?
If your diet's in check. There are no magic bullets0 -
Yeah I think Starting Strength is the easiest to start with because of simplicity and due to how well the book breaks down some important lifts.
Also this is primarily a weight loss site (and I know that isn't true for everyone here, i.e. the OP is in amazing shape - congrats!) but I don't know how effective/necessary hypertrophy training is for overweight individuals. Before anyone jumps down my throat - I KNOW a progressive weight lifting routine is important - just don't feel like hypertrophy training is.
This slightly touches on that:
http://impruvism.com/strength-training-fat-loss-podcast/
I am not 100% confident I am right on this - but if I am in a large caloric deficit (I am) I dunno if focusing on a routine that is designed to build muscle mass is smartest idea. (that said I follow All Pros Beginner routine - so maybe I am a hypocrite).
I assume the OP is in a surplus and building muscle, and also clearly not a beginner - so for her a bodybuilding split makes sense.
SS/SL, while they CAN be a hypertrophy routine if you are eating in an excess, will also help prevent the loss of lean body mass while eating at a deficit. That's why any form of weight training is important while losing weight, to preserve as much muscle/LBM as you can. You can't save it all but you can save a heck of a lot more if you are lifting while you are losing weight.0 -
Bump.
Never heard of SS. I'll be looking that up later. I'm looking for something to help me gain strength, tone and keep the weight down. I love to lift and I lift heavy (heavy to me) 3-4 times a week but I also run and do combat, zumba, turbo kick, play sports and swim.. i don't want big muscles, I really want the athletic build and cut tummy. And I'd love to skip out on turbo kick more often. but I always feel like i'm losing what I did.
Will SS help that?
Starting Strength (SS) is a beginner strength training program by Mark Rippetoe (very experienced powerlifting coach & author). Stronglifts IMO is just a rip-off of SS. If you do SS w/Zumba and all that other stuff the program will not be as effective as your body won't have adequate recovery time. That said, SS, etc. are effective if you follow them as they are written.0 -
Cos it's nigh impossible to gain (an appreciable amount of) muscle in a deficit and most people advised to take up SS etc are on a deficit, so their time is better spent improving strength?0
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I think one as an individual needs to figure out what goals they want to achieve. Do you want to gain strength, and maybe not lose a bunch of LBM eating at a deficit ? A compound strength program will be the way to go.
Do you want to eat at massive surplus, spend hours in the gym doing split routines to achieve a bodybuilder type physique ? Then focusing on isolation exercise in a split routine is the way to go . I am not knocking either decision but it's up to the individual what they want to achieve.
That said I did 3 months of a typical split routine with gradual weight increases. I moved to stronglifts about 5-6 weeks ago and I am far surpassing what I achieved in 120 days doing isolation splits. I can see changes in my physique, and I am definitely stronger. BUT I will probably never have the typical 'bodybuilder' look to me and I am fine with that. You can always start with SS or SL and move into more isolation/split type routine....kind of the best of both worlds.
ETA....both SS and SL have been proven to work and are only slightly different. No one is 'ripping' off anyone else as both Mark Rippentoe and Mehdi have taken their routines from Reg Park0 -
Most people here are eating at deficits, so their goal with strength training is to preserve muscle, not build it. According to Lyle McDonald strength based programs are best for that.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-1.html
Plus, like mentioned it's good to start with the basics. And both Starting Strength and Strong Lifts are relatively quick. I don't have time to do a "million different isolation moves".0 -
Agree with the op beginner strength programs are fine for what they are but many people here take them as the be all and end all. The solution to every training programme is do your compounds. However it is equally likely that if you're not seeing the results you want from compounds you need to change your programme and add some smart isolation. From my own experience I went from being unable to do any chin ups and failing to improve this through negatives, to being able to do multiple sets of 2-3 by concentrating on facepulls, db rows and curls for a couple months and zero lat pulldowns or negatives in the meantime.0
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Yeah I think Starting Strength is the easiest to start with because of simplicity and due to how well the book breaks down some important lifts.
Also this is primarily a weight loss site (and I know that isn't true for everyone here, i.e. the OP is in amazing shape - congrats!) but I don't know how effective/necessary hypertrophy training is for overweight individuals. Before anyone jumps down my throat - I KNOW a progressive weight lifting routine is important - just don't feel like hypertrophy training is.
This slightly touches on that:
http://impruvism.com/strength-training-fat-loss-podcast/
I am not 100% confident I am right on this - but if I am in a large caloric deficit (I am) I dunno if focusing on a routine that is designed to build muscle mass is smartest idea. (that said I follow All Pros Beginner routine - so maybe I am a hypocrite).
I assume the OP is in a surplus and building muscle, and also clearly not a beginner - so for her a bodybuilding split makes sense.
SS/SL, while they CAN be a hypertrophy routine if you are eating in an excess, will also help prevent the loss of lean body mass while eating at a deficit. That's why any form of weight training is important while losing weight, to preserve as much muscle/LBM as you can. You can't save it all but you can save a heck of a lot more if you are lifting while you are losing weight.
Yep, I know. I even mentioned the importance of progressive weight training in my post. My response was my answer to the OP wondering why SS is recommended more often than a bodybuilding split.0 -
Even 4chan has moved away from telling everyone to do SS and call it a day. Most people here want aesthetics more than strength. I've seen much better results on a "bro split" than I ever did on a strength based program. I don't lift heavy. The heaviest I ever go is lmao2plate!!!1! and half the time I don't go heavier than 185 on any lift. I do my compounds and then a million different isolation exercises. Training for strength is great... if your goal is strength. I've been training my little brother the way I train (he's a 16 year old boy) and he's been packing on mass very quickly. I just feel like a lot of people are getting trolled out of decent gains by being told to do strength based programs.
/rant
What kind of program has you lifting 185lbs? That's a good amount of weight. That sounds like a strength program to me. What is the alternative if you are lifting weights? A no strength but gain size program?
I haven't added any considerable strength for a long time. I was still able to squat 185 atg for reps when I busted my ankle so relative to my strength it's not that heavy. I mainly do higher rep (like 8-15) on most lifts. I do a lot of supersets like BB rows + curls, shrugs + front raise, etc. and I've seen great mass results. At first my goal was strength but then I realized I'm not gonna make it. I have terrible proportions for lifting (arms and legs too long, too much ROM). However, I have high trap insertions, wide lat insertions, and other features desirable for aesthetics.
I do a 4 day split on an ABCDABC, DABCDAB, etc. schedule.
A = chest/tri + extra delt assistace
B = back/bi (includes dead lift)
C = shoulders
D = legs + extra back/bi assistance
I end up doing around 50 sets total so it's pretty high volume. I normally don't lift much heavier than 70% 1RM but usually less. Other than one of the trainers at my gym that's on gear (and she's bigger than the vast majority of men there) I'm the biggest woman at my gym, even though I've only been lifting a year and I'm definitely not the strongest. I'm sure there are even plenty of women on here that are way stronger but smaller than me.
The point is that training for strength and size are two different things. Sure, there's some carry over. No one is going to become the hulk squatting one plate but it's still two different training styles. Training for strength when your goal is size is not optimal.0 -
True, there are differences in training for strength or size, but for beginners to intermediate lifters, building a base with compound lifts and practicing form and technique are the same regardless of your goals. That is where programs like SS and SL are good. Personally I wouldn't consider either of them strength programs compared to advanced powerlifting programs, nor would I consider it a hypertrophy program suited for bodybuilding. It's somewhere in the middle, where a beginner/intermediate will see both size and strength gains. Later on down the line if being a bodybuilder or strength athlete tickles your funny bone, then you can move into programs designed for those ventures. If your goal is just to be fit, then they are good, easy to use programs that give you goals and let you measure your progress without reams of lifting logs or complicated spreadsheets.
I got out of powerlifting about 5-6 years ago. I trained very little after that, and for 3 years or so, didn't pick up a weight at all. When I returned to lifting, I did 5x5 for a couple months to get my technique down and get used to moving weight, and then went into my current program that is more strength based. I have no desire to lift competitively again, and there is no doubt that I will never put up the weights I have in the past, but I still want to be strong and fit.0 -
It probably would be easier to get really big if you get really strong first. Like the really big guys in the pre-steroid days did.The point is that training for strength and size are two different things. Sure, there's some carry over. No one is going to become the hulk squatting one plate but it's still two different training styles. Training for strength when your goal is size is not optimal.0 -
Bump.
Never heard of SS. I'll be looking that up later. I'm looking for something to help me gain strength, tone and keep the weight down. I love to lift and I lift heavy (heavy to me) 3-4 times a week but I also run and do combat, zumba, turbo kick, play sports and swim.. i don't want big muscles, I really want the athletic build and cut tummy. And I'd love to skip out on turbo kick more often. but I always feel like i'm losing what I did.
Will SS help that?
If your diet's in check. There are no magic bullets
^^^This, and you're not going to get big muscles. As a female it is really hard for you to pack on muscle mass. That usually consist of the right diet of taking in a caloric surplus, spending hours in the gym, and usually taking something not sold to the public in stores.0 -
Even 4chan has moved away from telling everyone to do SS and call it a day. Most people here want aesthetics more than strength. I've seen much better results on a "bro split" than I ever did on a strength based program. I don't lift heavy. The heaviest I ever go is lmao2plate!!!1! and half the time I don't go heavier than 185 on any lift. I do my compounds and then a million different isolation exercises. Training for strength is great... if your goal is strength. I've been training my little brother the way I train (he's a 16 year old boy) and he's been packing on mass very quickly. I just feel like a lot of people are getting trolled out of decent gains by being told to do strength based programs.
/rant
If you use /fit/ as a resource for information you're going to have a bad time.0 -
I think some of us are not trying to bulk for health reasons as well. My first 25 years in the gym, I was walking around at 6'3" @ 235-245lbs.
Health issues have dictated I can no longer be big and muscular, but have to be lean & more cut. So now I have to focus on strength/endurance for my job as well as home.0 -
IMHO, for beginners, building a base of functional strength is optimal...then you can do your bro-split hypertrophy program down the road a bit. Programs like SS and SL are awesome for this and awesome programs for any beginner lifter.
I personally go back and forth between strength programs and hypertrophy. I personally want to be as strong as I look and look as strong as I am. Some of the bros in my gym are hilarious because they can curl like a boss but they squat like an 80 year old woman and have little to no core strength...forget dead-lifts.0
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